Pats D still Number 2 in AFC points against

[deroc5050]

I like wins.
It seems you prefer stylistic losses

He sure has. It's been a few days now and I'm running out of popcorn.

I'm curious to see how many others will try to make the Pats defense into an average defense. That's not easy to pull off.

it only needs 18PPG to win

Pat's average 8.72 point differential + this season. So the O can drop a TD and still win.

Yeah get your Popcorn out and yeah I love when the Pats lose apparently (because yeah we do have an average defense). I will refrain from name calling. But the last 3 out of 4 games will be very telling.

Does Dallas have a good defense because they gave up 15 points to Minnesota?

 

[Bruins29]

Andy you have issues too you and Bruins whatever the f*ck his name is. Starting after this weeks game we are gonna find out how good the Pats really are.

No, you are a little ****. You just dont like it that a couple of posters here are calling you out on your ********. You see, this inst the coddled ****y real world where you get a participation trophy for just showing up. That is the problem with your generation. You can't take criticism nor accept responsibility. Its everyone else that has "issues"

The clear "issue" AJ has is his infinite knowledge about football compared to yours.

You post nonsense and you will get called out on it. You dont like it....leave.

 

[RDS11]

And then most of this is these worried posters just throwing out facts and stats which Andy Johnson keeps proving wrong.

Proven whom wrong ? And based on what ?

Andy is entitled to his opinion, but unless he can predict the future, he has not proven anybody wrong yet.

And for someone who claims again and again that football is the ultimate team sport, and statistics are mostly useless because it doesn't account for situational football, his main (and only) point is the 17.9 ppg of this defense, saying that the team defensive PPG is the defense contribution to the team 9-2 record. Problem is, for someone who says that some stats are useless because it doesn't reflect situations, he quickly discounted the impact of the offense and the special teams on the Pats defensive PPG. When he was told that the Pats have the best starting position of defense (the results of a stellar offense and special team), he discredited this argument completely. Heck, the defensive PPG includes kickoff and punt returned for TDs, and pick-6, and the Pats have been exceptional on all these aspects.

It's easy to 'win' an argument when tossing out the facts that run against your opinion. So unless someone can provide me with clear data that shows only the contribution of the defense to the team overall record, I'll keep my doubts that this defense can win a game if the offense falters in the playoffs. Efficiency numbers are much more valuable in evaluating the defense, because these are not statistics that are related to offensive or special team performances, while the PPG is greatly impacted by things the defense has no control over (such as a turnover on their own side of the field).

Hey, I want the Pats to win as much as Andy does. But I'm not blind either : when I see Belichick trade Collins in the middle of the season, I understand he's not happy with the defense. And I trust Belichick's judgment a whole lot more than anybody posting here. Fact is, who here was seeing Collins as an average LB just before the trade ? Yet, since the trade, I don't see anybody here or on TV praising Collins that much anymore...

 

[mosslost]

Yeah get your Popcorn out and yeah I love when the Pats lose apparently (because yeah we do have an average defense). I will refrain from name calling. But the last 3 out of 4 games will be very telling.

Does Dallas have a good defense because they gave up 15 points to Minnesota?

18PPG to win

 

[deroc5050]

Proven whom wrong ? And based on what ?

Andy is entitled to his opinion, but unless he can predict the future, he has not proven anybody wrong yet.

And for someone who claims again and again that football is the ultimate team sport, and statistics are mostly useless because it doesn't account for situational football, his main (and only) point is the 17.9 ppg of this defense, saying that the team defensive PPG is the defense contribution to the team 9-2 record. Problem is, for someone who says that some stats are useless because it doesn't reflect situations, he quickly discounted the impact of the offense and the special teams on the Pats defensive PPG. When he was told that the Pats have the best starting position of defense (the results of a stellar offense and special team), he discredited this argument completely. Heck, the defensive PPG includes kickoff and punt returned for TDs, and pick-6, and the Pats have been exceptional on all these aspects.

It's easy to 'win' an argument when tossing out the facts that run against your opinion. So unless someone can provide me with clear data that shows only the contribution of the defense to the team overall record, I'll keep my doubts that this defense can win a game if the offense falters in the playoffs. Efficiency numbers are much more valuable in evaluating the defense, because these are not statistics that are related to offensive or special team performances, while the PPG is greatly impacted by things the defense has no control over (such as a turnover on their own side of the field).

Hey, I want the Pats to win as much as Andy does. But I'm not blind either : when I see Belichick trade Collins in the middle of the season, I understand he's not happy with the defense. And I trust Belichick's judgment a whole lot more than anybody posting here. Fact is, who here was seeing Collins as an average LB just before the trade ? Yet, since the trade, I don't see anybody here or on TV praising Collins that much anymore...

If we faced a lot of good offenses this season and the defense performed well, I would feel alot better about the defense. The fact is this defense dodged a bullet against Pittsburg and has made average or below average QB's look like good NFL starting players. The defense just hasn't looked impressive basically all year long.

Some of these scoring stats came down to 1 play in many games. So hanging your hat on 17.9 PPG is false confidence.

 

[Ring 6]

Proven whom wrong ? And based on what ?

Andy is entitled to his opinion, but unless he can predict the future, he has not proven anybody wrong yet.

Another reason you are wrong. I have not predicted anything. I have simply said that the defense has played very well which it has. I judge how a team plays by the result. And the result that matters for a defense is how many points are scored (with takeaways an important second). I totally dismiss that the underlying stats that led to the result mean more than the result.

And for someone who claims again and again that football is the ultimate team sport, and statistics are mostly useless because it doesn't account for situational football, his main (and only) point is the 17.9 ppg of this defense, saying that the team defensive PPG is the defense contribution to the team 9-2 record.

This of course is not what I said. But you can't make your point without assigning an argument to me that I didn't make so I get why you make this up.

Problem is, for someone who says that some stats are useless because it doesn't reflect situations, he quickly discounted the impact of the offense and the special teams on the Pats defensive PPG.

The defense also contributes to field position. For example the offense has the 5th best starting position giving it a better chance to turn it back in good field position.

When he was told that the Pats have the best starting position of defense (the results of a stellar offense and special team), he discredited this argument completely.

Thanks for giving me credit for discrediting you but I actually simply said you put too much emphasis on it and didn't take into account the defenses role in forks position

Heck, the defensive PPG includes kickoff and punt returned for TDs, and pick-6, and the Pats have been exceptional on all these aspects.

You act like that's a bad thing.
But if you account for those you still see this defense is doing an excellent job where it matters, on the scoreboard.

It's easy to 'win' an argument when tossing out the facts that run against your opinion. So unless someone can provide me with clear data that shows only the contribution of the defense to the team overall record, I'll keep my doubts that this defense can win a game if the offense falters in the playoffs. Efficiency numbers are much more valuable in evaluating the defense, because these are not statistics that are related to offensive or special team performances, while the PPG is greatly impacted by things the defense has no control over (such as a turnover on their own side of the field).

The next time a team wins a game because of these mysterious efficiency stats I will agree with you.
im sure those teams who will be staying home for the playoffs with their great efficiency stats will be proud.

Hey, I want the Pats to win as much as Andy does. But I'm not blind either : when I see Belichick trade Collins in the middle of the season, I understand he's not happy with the defense. And I trust Belichick's judgment a whole lot more than anybody posting here. Fact is, who here was seeing Collins as an average LB just before the trade ? Yet, since the trade, I don't see anybody here or on TV praising Collins that much anymore...

Then you should trust belichick opinion that the only stat that matters is the score.
I'm not sure on what planet wanting to improve means you haven't played well. I am certain that in foxboro getting better no matter how well you are playing is always the objective.
By the way if he felt the defense was bad why would he get rid of a talented player? It would seem more likely that he decided he is happy with what he has in defense and doesn't need to ciwtow to a malingerer. Keeping him would have been the sign that BB thinks he has defensive problems because then he would be giving in to attitude because he needs the player. Your argument actually is more likely to prove the opposite of what you think it did.

Ok now you can go back and ignore everything in my post and keep saying my opinion is that points allowed is the only thing that matters and nothing else means anything. That way you can keep dodging the facts.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

No it really doesn't.
I get it that there are fans that every time the opponent does anything good they think we are the only team that ever allows a score but it's just not realistic.

I think there are folks you're just never going to reach, and that's okay. The D has performed well this year, in fact overcoming some adversity along the way. No, I do not think Gronk's injury takes us out of contention, but there is a chance he'll be available on the big day in February.

The stats about points scored against are of course highly significant. A lot of people, as we can see here, want shutouts and flashy big plays in lieu of titles. They're just seeing the stat about how we're #2 in P.A. and thinking, There has never been an escape from Stalag 13!

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

If we faced a lot of good offenses this season and the defense performed well, I would feel alot better about the defense. The fact is this defense dodged a bullet against Pittsburg and has made average or below average QB's look like good NFL starting players. The defense just hasn't looked impressive basically all year long.

Some of these scoring stats came down to 1 play in many games. So hanging your hat on 17.9 PPG is false confidence.

They're still a work in progress, and there's time for them to improve.

 

[Ring 6]

If we faced a lot of good offenses this season and the defense performed well, I would feel alot better about the defense. The fact is this defense dodged a bullet against Pittsburg and has made average or below average QB's look like good NFL starting players. The defense just hasn't looked impressive basically all year long.

That just really hasn't happened no matter how much you want to say it.
Wilson looked great. Tannehill had a good 2nd half against a prevent defense protecting a huge lead with a rookie thrown in at QB.
There are no other QBs that the patriots have faced that looked like good starters. You aren't a good starter if you put up useless stats and 17 points.

Some of these scoring stats came down to 1 play in many games. So hanging your hat on 17.9 PPG is false confidence.

That doesn't even make any sense.
What has the defense not done that would have made this team better if they had.
The only real answer is play better against Seattle.

So I have asked you to state which games you think the defense was bad. You won't.
I have asked you to state who these 12-15 defenses that you think have been better than the patriots are. You won't.
Now I will ask you which average or worse QBs the patriots made look like good NFL starters and I'm sure you won't answer that either.
Sucks when you shoot from the hip without thinking and someone holds you accountable doesn't it?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Another reason you are wrong. I have not predicted anything. I have simply said that the defense has played very well which it has. I judge how a team plays by the result. And the result that matters for a defense is how many points are scored (with takeaways an important second). I totally dismiss that the underlying stats that led to the result mean more than the result.


This of course is not what I said. But you can't make your point without assigning an argument to me that I didn't make so I get why you make this up.



The defense also contributes to field position. For example the offense has the 5th best starting position giving it a better chance to turn it back in good field position.



Thanks for giving me credit for discrediting you but I actually simply said you put too much emphasis on it and didn't take into account the defenses role in forks position


You act like that's a bad thing.
But if you account for those you still see this defense is doing an excellent job where it matters, on the scoreboard.


The next time a team wins a game because of these mysterious efficiency stats I will agree with you.
im sure those teams who will be staying home for the playoffs with their great efficiency stats will be proud.



Then you should trust belichick opinion that the only stat that matters is the score.
I'm not sure on what planet wanting to improve means you haven't played well. I am certain that in foxboro getting better no matter how well you are playing is always the objective.
By the way if he felt the defense was bad why would he get rid of a talented player? It would seem more likely that he decided he is happy with what he has in defense and doesn't need to ciwtow to a malingerer. Keeping him would have been the sign that BB thinks he has defensive problems because then he would be giving in to attitude because he needs the player. Your argument actually is more likely to prove the opposite of what you think it did.

Ok now you can go back and ignore everything in my post and keep saying my opinion is that points allowed is the only thing that matters and nothing else means anything. That way you can keep dodging the facts.

Okay that's it I think you should be paid for your time and effort spent on here.

These are more examples of when people take a stance on a certain position or opinion and then come up with whatever they can to support it, no matter what. They'll be insisting our defense stinks with less than a minute left in the game in Houston on Feb. 5th.

Reminds me of something else like that too,...oops better not say.

 

[deroc5050]

That just really hasn't happened no matter how much you want to say it.
Wilson looked great. Tannehill had a good 2nd half against a prevent defense protecting a huge lead with a rookie thrown in at QB.
There are no other QBs that the patriots have faced that looked like good starters. You aren't a good starter if you put up useless stats and 17 points.

Opponents passer rating against New England for the season is 91.7, which is ranked 15th overall, over the last 3 games its climbed up too 113.3 rating. Over the last 3 games we have the second worst
Opponent Average Team Passer Rating.


Edit TB12 has 116 Passer rating for the season. So over the last 3 games opposing QBs have done just as well. Again not great offenses either.

 

[deroc5050]

No, you are a little ****. You just dont like it that a couple of posters here are calling you out on your ********. You see, this inst the coddled ****y real world where you get a participation trophy for just showing up. That is the problem with your generation. You can't take criticism nor accept responsibility. Its everyone else that has "issues"

The clear "issue" AJ has is his infinite knowledge about football compared to yours.

You post nonsense and you will get called out on it. You dont like it....leave.

The reason why I think you have some mental issues because you start calling people homo's or ****ies over a sports debate. You can go **** right off now.

BTW what generation are you refering too? Do you have some information on me that I am unaware of?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

The reason why I think you have some mental issues because you start calling people homo's or ****ies over a sports debate. You can go **** right off now.

BTW what generation are you refering too? Do you have some information on me that I am unaware of?

Statistics can be useful, and sometimes very revealing. But, they also don't tell the whole story. From an offensive standpoint, for example, both Mannings, Elway, Rivers etc. piling up wins simply does not put any of them in the same class as Plunkett, Bradshaw, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Tittle, Staubach

 

[Bruins29]

The reason why I think you have some mental issues because you start calling people homo's or ****ies over a sports debate. You can go **** right off now.

BTW what generation are you refering too? Do you have some information on me that I am unaware of?

I dont think so cupcake. You wont back up anything you post. AJ has given you the courtesy of debating this with you with far more patience than I have ever seen, and you wont answer his simple questions. Instead, you just post nonsense and tell him he has "issues?"

The only information I have on you is your refusal to live in reality, back up anything you post, and give credit and respect to posters who are trying to explain something very simple to you.

Yeah, you are a real asset here.

 

[luuked]

Opponents passer rating against New England for the season is 91.7, which is ranked 15th overall, over the last 3 games its climbed up too 113.3 rating. Over the last 3 games we have the second worst
Opponent Average Team Passer Rating.


Edit TB12 has 116 Passer rating for the season. So over the last 3 games opposing QBs have done just as well. Again not great offenses either.

None of this matters because games are decided by points not passer rating. I dont understand your obsession with opponent QB ratings.

You keep making that weird assumption that just because the Steelers QB2 had certain stats that their QB1 would have shredded us.
This is a particularly naive assumption though.

Our entire defensive scheme would have been different and the D would have attacked completely different parts of the Steelers. That's what situational football and game planning is about.

 

[Ring 6]

Opponents passer rating against New England for the season is 91.7, which is ranked 15th overall, over the last 3 games its climbed up too 113.3 rating. Over the last 3 games we have the second worst
Opponent Average Team Passer Rating.


Edit TB12 has 116 Passer rating for the season. So over the last 3 games opposing QBs have done just as well. Again not great offenses either.

Passer rating doesn't win football games.
Are you seriously trying to tell me you would prefer a lower passer rating and giving up more points?
Wilson played great against us.
Kaepernick put up 10 points until a garbage time drive.
Fitzpatrick put up 17 points.
That is not good. That is not looking like a good starting QB. That is putting up hollow stats.
You bold caps only show your anger and childishness. But I guess you can't hold your breath or stomp your feet on line.

 

[RDS11]

You keep making that weird assumption that just because the Steelers QB2 had certain stats that their QB1 would have shredded us.
This is a particularly naive assumption though.

No that's not the assumption that is being made. The assumption is that if we are making an evaluation of the defense based on the average PPG alone, facing QB1 or QB2 as an impact. Facing mediocre offenses, as opposed to top-of-the-league offenses, has an impact too.

This is just another way to prove that the average PPG is a misleading stat.

Belichick is not happy with his defense. That's clear to everybody who has followed the Pats over the years; trading Collins in the middle of the year, benching Sheard 2 weeks ago, still trying to find the number 2 CB, are not moves that show he is happy with the defense so far.

Andy and some other posters are trying to prove Belichick is wrong. That's not an argument these posters can win.

 

[1960Pats]

Statistics can be useful, and sometimes very revealing. But, they also don't tell the whole story. From an offensive standpoint, for example, both Mannings, Elway, Rivers etc. piling up wins simply does not put any of them in the same class as Plunkett, Bradshaw, Montana, Unitas, Brady, Tittle, Staubach

I can't believe you put Tittle in with that group of QBs.

 

[1960Pats]

No that's not the assumption that is being made. The assumption is that if we are making an evaluation of the defense based on the average PPG alone, facing QB1 or QB2 as an impact. Facing mediocre offenses, as opposed to top-of-the-league offenses, has an impact too.

This is just another way to prove that the average PPG is a misleading stat.

Belichick is not happy with his defense. That's clear to everybody who has followed the Pats over the years; trading Collins in the middle of the year, benching Sheard 2 weeks ago, still trying to find the number 2 CB, are not moves that show he is happy with the defense so far.

Andy and some other posters are trying to prove Belichick is wrong. That's not an argument these posters can win.

I do support AJ in this discussion (I was kidding about the popcorn though) and I only speak for myself.

We have no clue why Belichick makes the moves he makes. He's always trying to improve the team and should be. The Pats are giving up less points than every team but one in the entire NYJFL, but it's still his job to make it better.

As I mentioned a hundred or so posts ago , I think it's the job of every single player on the roster to help keep the other team from scoring. That alone should tell you that I value more than just scoring points. But the simple fact is that points scored is how we determine winners, and being at the top of a 32 team league does not make you average, let alone below average as someone here called them.

Edit: It's true that right now they're in the easiest part of their schedule and are way down the SOS list, but they started the season and will end the season with a tougher schedule.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

While I tend to think the defense has done a solid job, particularly given the many rules in the modern game that favor offenses, I do recognize that there's room for improvement. That said, polite discussion would be nice. I'm frankly quite tired of the ad hominem attacks. We're all on the same side here, folks.

Ultimately, this team can win a championship. Defense is only 1/3 of the equation, so regardless of whether they're good or merely competent, the overall team is still the best in the league. It's good to be a Patriots fan.