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Pats ability to beat good teams

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SVN, Nov 6, 2006.

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  1. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    Do you guys think it has diminished ? Sure "good team" is subject to debate since last season,when we went on that winning streak , how many elite teams have we beaten ?
    tampa bay- knocked out in first round by wash
    jacksonville -maybe
    cincy-looks like another fraud team
    minn-lost to SF

    again , iam not taking any credit away from the wins so dont jump on me but there was a time when we used to beat all teams with winning records...now last 4 prime time big games from last yr we are 1-3
    somehow everyone concentrates on the past glories like success against colts etc but our big game capacity seems to have regressed whether its due to injuries,player losses, coach losses

    thoughts ?
     
  2. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    I don't think we've beaten an elite team since the Eagles SB.

    1. Denver regular season 2005 (Loss)

    2. Indy regular season 2005 (Loss)

    3. Denver playoff 2005 (Loss)

    4. Denver regular season 2006 (Loss)

    5. Indy regular season 2006 (Loss)

    We also got beat by KC on the road last season. Brady threw 4 int. But they are not elite. Pittburgh was not elite at the time we beat them early last season.

    Minnesota isn't elite either. Neither is Cincy. Not this year. I don't consider Jax elite either.
     
  3. rabthepat

    rabthepat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    This is the exact point that came to me last night after the loss. I think good teams have figured out the formula to beat us.

    I also think trouble in brewing on the horizon for us with the San Diego Chargers. They are an up and coming team who have beaten us soundly the last 2 times we played them. We do not match up well against them. I think if we had played the Chargers instead of the Colts this week we would have gotten beaten by 14 or more points.
     
  4. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    Part of the formula would have to include the gradual decline of talent in our secondary. I'm not hear to argue the pros and cons of Law. But there is a point to be made that this secondary in its current form isn't very good.

    After Sunday, I'm less concerned about letting Samuel get away. He's not worth a huge investment. I'd rather see us get an elite CB in FA (not going to happen, but one can wish) and then spend every single draft pick on DBs and linebackers. I don't see a lot of glaring weaknesses on offense that another year of familiarity with the system can't solve. Caldwell, Jackson, Watson and Gabriel are solid. Loaded at TE, with or without the perpetually injured Graham and our O-line is stocked with young talent. Dillon has had his career extended by Maroney.
     
  5. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First off, when we beat Pittsburgh last year they were a very good team. Coming off a 15-1 season and 2-0 when we met. They struggled later when Ben began his injury odessey, although they rebounded pretty good in the playoffs SB officiating aside. That win cost us though, our starting SS and C.

    The only other good teams we faced since then are the Broncos who have always been a matchup headache and the Colts who have caught us down or in transition the last two meetings.

    As for San Diego, they caught us last year after the injuries and before Tedy returned or Hawkins was added and while Starks was still starting. We were a .500 team at that point. And still they didn't make the playoffs. This year they are 6-2 and have yet to play a team of Denver or Indy's caliber. In fact the only two potential playoff teams they have played, Baltimore and KC, have beaten them. In order to get to us Marty would have to navigate them into the playoffs as a WC. And while they still have Gates and LT they don't have Brees. Rivers is a rookie for all intents and purposes. They still have Seattle Christmas Eve on the road, and another with KC and two with Denver to get through. Not to mention a trip to Cincy this week which could be difficult if the Bengals get their heads out of their asses. And a road trip to Ralph Wilson in December when there could be feet of snow on the ground in Buffalo.


    There are only a handful of "elite" teams in the league, and even scuffling a bit we remain one of them. We won't play another one until January. By then we should be better since Belichick coached teams ALWAYS are. Whether that is good enough remains to be seen, but there were never any guarantees even though as a fan base we had begun to assume them after winning 3 of 4.
     
  6. SoonerPatriot

    SoonerPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

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    Good analysis of SD. I still don't think we beat them with a healthy Bruschi or with Hawkins last year. That game was an but whippin to the 10th power. It was as ugly as the Indy game was in 2005.

    I guess the thing I take heart in are these factors:

    -Brady couldn't have played much worse.

    -We turned it over 5 times, had 8 penalties (at least two of which were complete BS).

    -Rodney missed all but 3 defensive snaps.

    - The Colts played near perfect on offense and defense (despite what the homer, Dungy ball washer Bob Kravitz said today in his "column").

    Forget Harrison's fluke TD catch, the most amazing thing from Sunday night considering all of this is that the Colts didn't win 55-10. Says a lot about them and a lot about us IMO.
     
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Cincy and Minnesota are good teams, we provided a blue print on how to beat them so other teams can follow the same.

    I am not sure that we are a really good team right now, have said all along by game 10 we will know how good our receiver corps is... sun nite's game was also about receivers not running good routes, #12 throwing to a spot and those guys not being there. We have seen some indicators that the receivers are pretty good, but we lack in consistency.

    Defensively we are fine, if we take away the acrobatic catch of Harrison we would have held them to 20 points, we held them to 10 points in the second half. This is pretty good for this offensive juggernaut.
     
  8. MDPATSFAN

    MDPATSFAN On the Game Day Roster

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    Two glaring rarities over the past two seasons. A Pats receiver hit in stride and running after the catch....A Pats defensive back actually breaking up a pass play on a well thrown ball.
     
  9. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    Sorry, some of you are in denial but if you are one of the elite you beat the best teams, especially at home, at least a good fraction of the time. In 2003 and 2004 we were clearly the best team. We are no longer the best team and our record is what it is. Five straight losses against the Colts and Broncos says it all. Right now the horsie teams are leading the AFC herd.

    Or as the Bills (Parcellls and Belichick) would say, "you are what you are". And RIGHT NOW we are not an elite team. Things can change quickly in the Not For Long league, however. We could get better - see the 2001 Patriots or the 2005 Steelers - or we are close enough to the Colts that with a bit of luck we could beat them - or the horses could throw a shoe - but right now I have to admit they seem to be the better team, and the Broncos have forever had our number.
     
  10. richpats

    richpats Banned

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    We are clearly the 3rd-best team in the league right now (unfortunately the AFC too). The pecking order is Indy, Denver and NE. I believe one main reason Indy and Denver have passed us is consistency. They have not experienced the amount of personnel defections or level of injuries that we have the last couple of years. Of late, we've been a week-to-week work in progress. The Colts & Broncos know who they are and what they can do, so they are more comfortable and confident against us than we are against them. Even though they've bowed out of the playoffs unceremoniously the last 3 years, they've both taken strides to improve their team each year, and one year it may all come together for them.

    We can still beat good teams, but we haven't proven we can beat the BEST teams, and that's what it will take to win another Super Bowl. I think both Indy and Denver have vulnerabilities in the postseason (hint: 18, 16), but we can't beat them with an ugly game either.
     
  11. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    Somehow everyone seems to think we are the 3rd best team .Maybe we are but we havent played SD or baltimore..teams with similar records which merit the same recognition ..and we always seem to forget
    Even analysts keep harping on the AFC champ game this yr maybe a rematch of pats colts etc etc
    Guess what , if we dont have a first round bye like last yr ..we may have to play denver or SD since one of them will be a wild card...
    to be honest i wouldnt want to play SD or denver in the playoffs..i doubt we match up well with either..
     
  12. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    eh, it is what it is. The Patriots have not beaten Indy or the Broncos in 5 games the last two years.

    If we qualify elite teams as 'Indy and Denver' then the Pats have not beaten an elite team the last two years. One of those team's just happens to be the one team the Pats seem to have no answer to. The other... they had no shot in last year's game with the defense and running back injuries and this year they simply got straight-up beaten.

    Q: What was the difference between Jacksonville (12-4) and Denver (13-3)last year?
    A: Denver beat NE, while Jax lost to NE

    Seems like calling Denver elite and Jacksonville not is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Jax beat the Pats then they would have been another elite team that the Pats lost to. If Denver lost to NE they would have been a division winner knocked out in their first playoff game. Losing to NE prevented Jax from elite status and beating NE established it for Denver.

    If the Pats lost to the eventual superbowl champion Steelers they'd be in the 'elite - loss' column. Since the Pats beat them they get simply chalked up to good.

    Let's see how the playoffs go this year. Another year getting knocked out before the AFC championship game and we can discuss the team's struggles against elite foes.

    I will admit though that the team has lost its air of invincibility and I will no longer go into a tough game knowing they will somehow win. Then again there was no way that could last.
     
  13. rabthepat

    rabthepat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I have seen all the Chargers games this year with Direct TV's short cuts. I think they might be the surprise team from the AFC this year. They might struggle with Denver but they match up well with the Colts and Pats. Remember, even though they struggled last year they went into Indy last year and beat them. Rivers is not a rookie. It is his 3rd year in the league and look at his stats. They also have the best RB combo in the league with LT and Turner. And who on the Pats is going to cover Gates?

    I think the Pats can still do it if they get their act together but if we don't my money is on San Diego. The Colts always choke, Jake the Mistake isn't a SuperBowl QB and Baltimore doesn't have enough offense.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2006
  14. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

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    chargers arent a surprise team, its the east coast bias at its best...if the chargers played in the east coast people would notice them more...
     
  15. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    My fear is that when all is said and done come playoff time, inconsistency at wide receiver (Gabriel, Caldwell and Jackson taking time to jell) and at safety (with Rodney and Wilson in and out of the lineup) will be big obstacles to overcome. I hope I'm wrong, but we're already halfway through the season.
     
  16. rabthepat

    rabthepat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    You make a very valid point. I agree. If San Diego was in our division I would be worrying about winning our division and couldn't be concerned about the Colts or Denver. Thank goodness for the Jets, Bills and Dolphins.
     
  17. TomBrady'sGoat

    TomBrady'sGoat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    The lack of chargers love could be east coast bias, or it could be related to 1) the way they faded last year 2) having a rookie qb 3) being coached by a guy who has two hands wrapped around his neck at all times.

    the Chargers are a wild card right now. Yeah, they can play great and take you down. They can also beat themselves.

    As for the media, I think a lot of mediots were pushing the Chargers last year just to have them miss the playoffs. That usually makes them a little hesitant the following year.

    But you're probably right. East coast bias is a much simpler and less thoughtful explanation.
     
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