Patriots type 3-4 OLB

[MaineMan]

What produces a dynamic pass rush, if not pass rushers? Magic beans? Special cleats?

In the dynasty years, the Pats had Vrabel, McGinest, and Colvin, all of whom could be depended on to create pressure on the quarterback.

This edition of the Patriots has zero linebackers that can depended on to get to the quarterback. You seem to have the idea that the Super Bowl-winning teams had mediocre outside linebackers, but since they had a bunch of them, they could produce a pass rush. Wrong, they had 3 borderline elite pass rushers. Colvin was a fairly one-dimensional pass rusher. Belichick signed him to a fairly expensive contract. Obviously he felt it was an important piece to the defense.

You're lack of basic understanding is outdone only by your rudeness.

Vrabel had four years experience as sub-rusher in the Steelers 3-4. McGinest had been with the Pats for a few years before BB even came on board. Colvin was a veteran talent. All of them were proven as pass-rushers and Vrabel and McGinest had already demonstrated they could do some other things as well.

None of these guys were unproven rookies or cost BB a draft pick, much less a 1st-rounder.

 

[MaineMan]

I really don't get how otherwise intelligent people are coming to the conclusion that bad defense = 11 bad players on the defense. The Cowboys made the playoffs last year. I guess last year we should have traded for Ware, since last year he was awesome but this year he sucks. I get it. Likewise, Champ Bailey couldn't help this team, nor Ryan Clady since the Broncos suck on offense and defense. Marrio Williams clearly sucks, as does Andre Johnson, since the Houston offense and defense were both near the bottom of the league. Good thing Belichick doesn't think like that, or we never would have gotten Randy Moss or Wes Welker from the ****ty offenses they previously contributed to. DeMarcus Ware had 16 sacks this year and 47 over the last three. Yet he must suck because Dallas has nobody who can cover in the secondary. A 6'4" 260 lb outside linebacker with over 80 career sacks clearly has no place in our defense.

Hopefully we can trade playoff player and contributor to the leagues #1 offense Dan Connolly straight up for Ware. According to the logic present here, Dallas comes out ahead.

You appear to be objecting to me saying that Ware is a bad player and or wouldn't be valuable to the Pats. Ummm.... I don't recall ever having said either of those things, so I guess I'm missing your point here.

 

[MaineMan]

That's a fair # of downs, isn't it?

For the situation the Pats are in, I'd be fine with a first rounder in this hypothetical, as I think that kind of player could have a significant impact on the team's defense. (Though generally I'd agree with your point -- you don't usually want to use a first rounder for a situational guy.)

Well, that really is my only point.

I'm not saying that anyone is "dumb" to want to spend a 1st round pick on a situational pass-rusher (I understand the urgency), I'm merely saying that I wouldn't. I think there are less expensive ways (in terms of draft picks, not salary $$) to acquire such a guy and I'd rather spend first rounders on a (primarily) 3-down DE and the O-line.

Apparently, some posters think that means that I think DeMarcus Ware is a terrible player and a bunch of other things and that I'm a frakking ignorant, illogical st00pid-head.

 

[MaineMan]

Pointing out reality is not rude, it's reality.

I guess now we are moving from "Elite" (Ware) to now "borderline elite pass rushers". It's a start.....I guess.....

let's review basic logic.

Cause and effect/ objective and tactics.

If you want to accomplish objective/effect A (improve Pats pass defense) a cause/tactic is proposed (elite pass rusher).

The reality is your cause/tactic (Ware having monster year) had zero effect in accomplishing an objective (great Dallas pass defense). The reality is the Dallas pass defense was worse.

The example would have merit if Ware had a monster year and there was documented noticeable improvement in the Dallas pass defense. Next time ya might want to try that example avenue.

I can see why something so absurd would appear to make sense. When did our now "borderline elite" linebackers rack up a 16 sack season like Ware? Review the stats.

The reality was that linebacking group were smart flexible players that did many things well and allowed for gameplans that can bring pressure from an multitude of avenues. This was the antithesis of an "elite pass rusher".

Just thought it would be polite to mention at this juncture that rational, fact-based arguments will never win the Internets for you.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Well.....the thread is about OLB's. We know BB likes flexible LB's that can do many things well. Sounds like that criteria (what the coach likes) is a good basis for evaluating talent.

It's like every thread degenerates into a pass rusher thread. I wouldn't suprised if there is a thread on drafting a new long snapper because he can also pass rush.

Reading through the various reports, it seems to me the kid from Missouri has a diverse skillset. He also looks very light in his weight.

Is Kerrigan showing the skillsets required of a Belichick OLB? Ignoring what BB likes only means disapointment in April.

Yeah, you completely dodged all of my points, I wonder if there's a reason for that.

 

[dryheat44]

You appear to be objecting to me saying that Ware is a bad player and or wouldn't be valuable to the Pats. Ummm.... I don't recall ever having said either of those things, so I guess I'm missing your point here.

You appeared to be agreeing with the "logic" that since the Cowboys had a bad pass defense, and Ware was on that defense, then Ware wouldn't help the Patriots pass rush, since if he was a good pass rusher, the Cowboys would have the #1 pass defense.

If I somehow made an error in comprehension, apologies.

Again, the original question I had asked you is if, given the Patriots current roster (obviously it will change, and a new CBA could greatly affect things), if you would spend a first round pick to draft a theoretical "pass rush specialist" who could be counted on to provide consistent pressure on the quarterback, even if you could only use him on 3rd downs and other obvious passing situations (obviously, I'd prefer a guy whose at least serviceable against the run). You said you wouldn't. I have my answer and can now read your posts with some degree of context regarding your draft philosophy. That is all.

 

[everlong]

I think if you asked yourself the following questions and were being honest you would answer yes to all of them.

If the Cowboys had brain damage and offered the Patriots Ware for the 17th pick would they accept?

Would having Ware make the Patriots a better defense?

Was lack of a pass rush one of the major flaws with the 2010 Patriots?

 

[thodoks]

Do NOT sleep on Brooks Reed. It shouldn't surprise if, by the end of the evaluation process, he sneaks into the first round.

 

[townes]

Draft information is still limited but so far the player I like the most at #17 is Kerrigan, he has the brains, work ethic, and ability to turn himself into a really good pro. His intangibles remind me of Vrabel and hopefully he's still around when they pick.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

Do NOT sleep on Brooks Reed. It shouldn't surprise if, by the end of the evaluation process, he sneaks into the first round.

Um, no. He's nowhere near as explosive as Matthews. He MAY sneak into the back end of the second if he has a great combine, but right now I think he's a late 3rd - mid 4th prospect. I like him, but he's essentially TBC with a bit more fire and bulk to him.

 

[bucky]

This isn't just a case where the Pats dislike working with Condon. This is a case where the Pats and Condon completely ruined any chance of working together in the future.

The new CBA could slot rookie salaries and make the agent almost irrelevant in dealing with rookie contracts. In any case, Aldon Smith is the kind of player that could make it worth swallowing your pride and repairing the relationship with Condon.

 

[Coach42]

I still maintain that Belichick won't take a guy with such a drastic position change in the first round; that has been correct over the years, we'll see if this is different. Regarding Kerrigan it sounds like the pass rush expected has definitely shown up; I've read about some issues tackling in space, not much about his run defense.

Yeah I totally agree. Belichick definitely would trade down or out before take a risk on a 1st round position change projection. I don't think any of these DE/OLB types are promising enough for a first round pick anyway.

 

[patsfanboy]

The new CBA could slot rookie salaries and make the agent almost irrelevant in dealing with rookie contracts. In any case, Aldon Smith is the kind of player that could make it worth swallowing your pride and repairing the relationship with Condon.

100% agree. We can't pass up players because of their agent, that just stupid.

 

[WesWelker83]

I think its safe to cross Kerrigan off the Patriots list. He has had an alright week at the Senior Bowl but look at this from ESPN's Todd Mcshay:

"His strength is getting up the field and getting to the quarterback. After a trip to the LBs group for some drills that exposed his lack of athleticism and tight hips that aren't ideal for coverage, he showed he is a DE in a 4-3 scheme no questions asked and should drop into coverage rarely in the NFL."

Bill isn't going to use a first round pick on a conversion project either. In the first round, we draft solid players, with production at the position we are drafting them at with low bust possibilties in the first round. BB has never drafted a DE/OLB conversion guy in the first round. If you look at what I said earlier in this thread I think Kerrigan is a good player and does some of the things we want but he cant play in space, isnt athletic enough for OLB, and can't matchup in coverage. I think Jacksonville takes him or another 4-3 team in the first round anyways.

 

[Sciz]

Damn. Who's left at OLB? I've got a big red flag on all of them :bricks:

 

[TriplecHamp]

Damn. Who's left at OLB? I've got a big red flag on all of them :bricks:

Rarely do you find the perfect OLB prospect, if you do he's probably going top 5.

 

[WesWelker83]

Could someone please tell me more about these three players? Their measureables look like they fit our scheme but I don't remember seeing them play many times and I didn't focus on them.

Martez Wilson 6-4 250 Illinois
Thomas Keiser 6-5 257 Stanford
KJ Wright 6-3 250 Mississippi State

 

[WesWelker83]

Damn. Who's left at OLB? I've got a big red flag on all of them :bricks:

I would love to add Robert Quinn. Hes my binky and #1 rated OLB. If he drops we could trade 17 and 33 to around 7-10 and draft him. Then at 28 take Muhammed Wilkerson or Corey Liuget. I would be estatic with that start to the draft. With our second round pick take OG Boling from Georgia or OG Watkins from Baylor.

 

[Sciz]

Rarely do you find the perfect OLB prospect, if you do he's probably going top 5.

I'm not convinced that there's an OLB worthy of #17 right now

 

[Peachhead]

Damn. Who's left at OLB? I've got a big red flag on all of them :bricks:

Brooks Reed, Arizona (in the mid rounds).

Several reviews of Senior Bowl practices have said they have tried him at OLB and he's been fine rushing from a 2-pt stance and in pass coverage. Which to me is impressive considering he's been in that position less than a week.