Patriots type 3-4 OLB

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Just because Dallas's defense sucked it doesn't mean every player on the defense is useless. I'm sure we could find some redeemable talent on the 1-15 Panthers that would be upgrades on our team.

Demarcus Ware is not the answer because if he were, Dallas would have the number 1 pass defense.

Why anyone would use a player on a total failure defense to make their point is beyond comprehension.

Maybe Mario Williams and the Texans could be used to further make the point.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Demarcus Ware is not the answer because if he were, Dallas would have the number 1 pass defense.

Why anyone would use a player on a total failure defense to make their point is beyond comprehension.

Maybe Mario Williams and the Texans could be used to further make the point.

Did the Cowboys’s defense suck BECAUSE of Ware or IN SPITE of him?

Ware is a flat-out Stud and I’d LOVE to have him at OLB, he would be a huge upgrade of Banta-Cain or Cunningham.

 

[UofApatsfan]

Demarcus Ware is not the answer because if he were, Dallas would have the number 1 pass defense.

That's gotta be some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Demarcus Ware is not the answer because if he were, Dallas would have the number 1 pass defense.

Why anyone would use a player on a total failure defense to make their point is beyond comprehension.

Maybe Mario Williams and the Texans could be used to further make the point.

speaking of beyond comprehension.....

 

[MaineMan]

I think in the current NFL, if you can get a situational rusher who can reliably generate pressure on the quarterback, for a first round pick, you have to do it.

It's a passing league, and most quarterbacks are good enough to pick even a good defense apart if you let them.

To use an extreme case, if DeMarcus Ware were in this draft, but you were only allowed to play him on 2nd and longs and 3rd downs, would you spend a 1st rounder on him?

No. I wouldn't spend a 1st rounder on any player who was ONLY useful on 2nd-and-long or 3rd downs.

 

[MaineMan]

Okay. I'm lost here.

We're debating about whether or not to take an elite pass-rusher with a 1st rounder with those in favor claiming that we absolutely need one for our pass defense to get better.

And, now, somehow, we've gotten around to using DeMarcus Ware as an example of a 1st-round worthy pass-rusher who would, one supposes, make our pass defense better. And yet the Dallas pass defense sucked in spite of them having Ware.

Lewis Carrol could get another book out of this, I bet.

 

[dryheat44]

Okay. I'm lost here.

We're debating about whether or not to take an elite pass-rusher with a 1st rounder with those in favor claiming that we absolutely need one for our pass defense to get better.

And, now, somehow, we've gotten around to using DeMarcus Ware as an example of a 1st-round worthy pass-rusher who would, one supposes, make our pass defense better. And yet the Dallas pass defense sucked in spite of them having Ware.

Lewis Carrol could get another book out of this, I bet.

I really don't get how otherwise intelligent people are coming to the conclusion that bad defense = 11 bad players on the defense. The Cowboys made the playoffs last year. I guess last year we should have traded for Ware, since last year he was awesome but this year he sucks. I get it. Likewise, Champ Bailey couldn't help this team, nor Ryan Clady since the Broncos suck on offense and defense. Marrio Williams clearly sucks, as does Andre Johnson, since the Houston offense and defense were both near the bottom of the league. Good thing Belichick doesn't think like that, or we never would have gotten Randy Moss or Wes Welker from the ****ty offenses they previously contributed to. DeMarcus Ware had 16 sacks this year and 47 over the last three. Yet he must suck because Dallas has nobody who can cover in the secondary. A 6'4" 260 lb outside linebacker with over 80 career sacks clearly has no place in our defense.

Hopefully we can trade playoff player and contributor to the leagues #1 offense Dan Connolly straight up for Ware. According to the logic present here, Dallas comes out ahead.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

That's gotta be some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard.

I guess you disagree.

That confirms the intelligence of the statement.

 

[chicowalker]

No. I wouldn't spend a 1st rounder on any player who was ONLY useful on 2nd-and-long or 3rd downs.

That's a fair # of downs, isn't it?

For the situation the Pats are in, I'd be fine with a first rounder in this hypothetical, as I think that kind of player could have a significant impact on the team's defense. (Though generally I'd agree with your point -- you don't usually want to use a first rounder for a situational guy.)

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Okay. I'm lost here.

We're debating about whether or not to take an elite pass-rusher with a 1st rounder with those in favor claiming that we absolutely need one for our pass defense to get better.

And, now, somehow, we've gotten around to using DeMarcus Ware as an example of a 1st-round worthy pass-rusher who would, one supposes, make our pass defense better. And yet the Dallas pass defense sucked in spite of them having Ware.

Lewis Carrol could get another book out of this, I bet.

Maine

The question is simple.

Do people want a "pass rush" or a "pass rusher"?

The reality is there are many here fixated on the idiotic "pass rusher" concept. That's how you get to the point where Dallas is used as an example and the users have zero shame in the stupidity of the point.

This further reinforced by the fact that the dynasty years were marked by flexible intelligent players that produced a varied, dynamic pass rush.

 

[dryheat44]

Maine

The question is simple.

Do people want a "pass rush" or a "pass rusher"?

The reality is there are many here fixated on the idiotic "pass rusher" concept. That's how you get to the point where Dallas is used as an example and the users have zero shame in the stupidity of the point.

This further reinforced by the fact that the dynasty years were marked by flexible intelligent players that produced a varied, dynamic pass rush.

What produces a dynamic pass rush, if not pass rushers? Magic beans? Special cleats?

In the dynasty years, the Pats had Vrabel, McGinest, and Colvin, all of whom could be depended on to create pressure on the quarterback.

This edition of the Patriots has zero linebackers that can depended on to get to the quarterback. You seem to have the idea that the Super Bowl-winning teams had mediocre outside linebackers, but since they had a bunch of them, they could produce a pass rush. Wrong, they had 3 borderline elite pass rushers. Colvin was a fairly one-dimensional pass rusher. Belichick signed him to a fairly expensive contract. Obviously he felt it was an important piece to the defense.

You're lack of basic understanding is outdone only by your rudeness.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

What produces a dynamic pass rush, if not pass rushers? Magic beans? Special cleats?

In the dynasty years, the Pats had Vrabel, McGinest, and Colvin, all of whom could be depended on to create pressure on the quarterback.

This edition of the Patriots has zero linebackers that can depended on to get to the quarterback. You seem to have the idea that the Super Bowl-winning teams had mediocre outside linebackers, but since they had a bunch of them, they could produce a pass rush. Wrong, they had 3 borderline elite pass rushers. Colvin was a fairly one-dimensional pass rusher. Belichick signed him to a fairly expensive contract. Obviously he felt it was an important piece to the defense.

You're lack of basic understanding is outdone only by your rudeness.

Pointing out reality is not rude, it's reality.

I guess now we are moving from "Elite" (Ware) to now "borderline elite pass rushers". It's a start.....I guess.....

let's review basic logic.

Cause and effect/ objective and tactics.

If you want to accomplish objective/effect A (improve Pats pass defense) a cause/tactic is proposed (elite pass rusher).

The reality is your cause/tactic (Ware having monster year) had zero effect in accomplishing an objective (great Dallas pass defense). The reality is the Dallas pass defense was worse.

The example would have merit if Ware had a monster year and there was documented noticeable improvement in the Dallas pass defense. Next time ya might want to try that example avenue.

I can see why something so absurd would appear to make sense. When did our now "borderline elite" linebackers rack up a 16 sack season like Ware? Review the stats.

The reality was that linebacking group were smart flexible players that did many things well and allowed for gameplans that can bring pressure from an multitude of avenues. This was the antithesis of an "elite pass rusher".

 

[dryheat44]

Pointing out reality is not rude, it's reality.

I guess now we are moving from "Elite" (Ware) to now "borderline elite pass rushers". It's a start.....I guess.....

let's review basic logic.

Cause and effect/ objective and tactics.

If you want to accomplish objective/effect A (improve Pats pass defense) a cause/tactic is proposed (elite pass rusher).

The reality is your cause/tactic (Ware having monster year) had zero effect in accomplishing an objective (great Dallas pass defense). The reality is the Dallas pass defense was worse.

The example would have merit if Ware had a monster year and there was documented noticeable improvement in the Dallas pass defense. Next time ya might want to try that example avenue.

I can see why something so absurd would appear to make sense. When did our now "borderline elite" linebackers rack up a 16 sack season like Ware? Review the stats.

The reality was that linebacking group were smart flexible players that did many things well and allowed for gameplans that can bring pressure from an multitude of avenues. This was the antithesis of an "elite pass rusher".

Look, I have no problem with your opinion that a pass rusher isn't worth a 1st round pick, or that pass rushers don't create a pass rush. I simply don't agree.

However, your "Ware won't help, because the Cowboys had a poor pass defense" POV defies all common sense, nor is logical, as you claim. I mean, the Cowboys pass defense was in the top half of the league in 2008 and 2009. So Ware was a good player then, but not now?

Guess what? The Patriots had a poor pass defense too, arguably worse than Dallas, but I'm not ready to cashier McCourty and Chung because of it. I'd bet if we offered McCourty around the league for a 1st round pick at least 3/4 of the league would jump on it before Belichick sobered up.

You'll have to explain to me again how an outside linebacker with 47 sacks, countless QB hurries, and 15 forced fumbles over the past three years won't help the Patriots based on his Cowboy's lack of success in 2010. I'll listen. I didn't watch the Cowboys enough to know why their pass defense was terrible. I do know that pass defense depends on more than one defender to be successful, and looking at their starting lineup, I'd guess that it was because they started two safeties that should be on a practice squad somewhere. I'm willing to bet, though, it wasn't the fault of the 16 sack guy that commanded double teams on virtually every play.

If Ware were in the draft this year he'd be the #1 pick. And I mean the 27-year-old Ware. Throw in the fact that he's got a degree in Business Information Systems, a family man and solid citizen, I'd trade our first draft pick and TBC for him in a heartbeat.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Look, I have no problem with your opinion that a pass rusher isn't worth a 1st round pick, or that pass rushers don't create a pass rush. I simply don't agree.

However, your "Ware won't help, because the Cowboys had a poor pass defense" POV defies all common sense, nor is logical, as you claim. I mean, the Cowboys pass defense was in the top half of the league in 2008 and 2009. So Ware was a good player then, but not now?

Guess what? The Patriots had a poor pass defense too, arguably worse than Dallas, but I'm not ready to cashier McCourty and Chung because of it. I'd bet if we offered McCourty around the league for a 1st round pick at least 3/4 of the league would jump on it before Belichick sobered up.

You'll have to explain to me again how an outside linebacker with 47 sacks, countless QB hurries, and 15 forced fumbles over the past three years won't help the Patriots based on his Cowboy's lack of success in 2010. I'll listen. I didn't watch the Cowboys enough to know why their pass defense was terrible. I do know that pass defense depends on more than one defender to be successful, and looking at their starting lineup, I'd guess that it was because they started two safeties that should be on a practice squad somewhere. I'm willing to bet, though, it wasn't the fault of the 16 sack guy that commanded double teams on virtually every play.

If Ware were in the draft this year he'd be the #1 pick. And I mean the 27-year-old Ware. Throw in the fact that he's got a degree in Business Information Systems, a family man and solid citizen, I'd trade our first draft pick and TBC for him in a heartbeat.

The question isn't Ware.

It's about the example. Ware's 2010 season did not prevent the Dallas pass defense from being horrendous. The amount that it helped was swamped by other factors. As such, the idea that Ware is a valid example of an "Elite" pass rusher improving a pass defense does not hold.

This mirrors the Cameron Wake experience. In Miami, he gets a couple of early sacks and it's unconditional love. The fact that adjustments were made and he got run over is overlooked....most likely because he's an elite pass rusher.

Do we need OLB's? Absolutely

In the 1st round? If he's there go get him.

I even like the idea of having a "pass rush" specialist. Frankly, if TBC was relagated to that roll only; I think he could be effective within a "pass rush" concept.

Where I disagree is wasting a high pick on a "pass rusher" in the idea that this will solve the "pass defense" problem.

 

[Snake Eyes]

The question isn't Ware.

It's about the example. Ware's 2010 season did not prevent the Dallas pass defense from being horrendous. The amount that it helped was swamped by other factors. As such, the idea that Ware is a valid example of an "Elite" pass rusher improving a pass defense does not hold.

This mirrors the Cameron Wake experience. In Miami, he gets a couple of early sacks and it's unconditional love. The fact that adjustments were made and he got run over is overlooked....most likely because he's an elite pass rusher.

Do we need OLB's? Absolutely

In the 1st round? If he's there go get him.

I even like the idea of having a "pass rush" specialist. Frankly, if TBC was relagated to that roll only; I think he could be effective within a "pass rush" concept.

Where I disagree is wasting a high pick on a "pass rusher" in the idea that this will solve the "pass defense" problem.

What would Dallas have looked like this year without Ware? If you can’t answer that question you really can’t blame their lack of effectiveness on him.

Anyway, you’re really just arguing for the sake of arguing, the simple fact is that we don’t get pressure on opposing QBs and that’s an important factor in effective defense. Ware would be a significant upgrade form what we have now, which means he would help improve the defense, and that’s the goal, right?

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

What would Dallas have looked like this year without Ware? If you can’t answer that question you really can’t blame their lack of effectiveness on him.

Anyway, you’re really just arguing for the sake of arguing, the simple fact is that we don’t get pressure on opposing QBs and that’s an important factor in effective defense. Ware would be a significant upgrade form what we have now, which means he would help improve the defense, and that’s the goal, right?

This is way beyond absurd.

What would they have looked like without him?

Who cares

Did you see what they actually looked like with him?

"Hey, our defense sucks because we don't have a pass rusher"

"Huh?"

"Yeah, look at Dallas, they have Demarcus Ware and he's a monster pass rusher"

"Yeah, but the Dallas pass defense was even worse than ours and if was worse than in 2009, with Ware having a great year"

"You don't understand, they would have been even worse if they didn't have him."

"How do you know that?"

"Well, because Ware is a great pass rusher because he applies pressure."

"Yeah, but isn't the idea to have great pass defense"

" That's a given if you have a great pass rusher.....if you look at Ware and ignore the everything else. if we had a great pass rush specialist we can be just like Dallas.....because they have a great pass rusher."

 

[BelichickFan]

This is way beyond absurd.

For the love of god will you cut it out and let the thread go back to what it should be ?

I still don't think we'll take an OLB at 1a but I guess Kerrigan has impressed at the Senior Bowl, if he's strong enough against the run maybe Bill will surprise me . . . but I still don't think so.

 

[Snake Eyes]

This is way beyond absurd.

What would they have looked like without him?

Who cares

Did you see what they actually looked like with him?

"Hey, our defense sucks because we don't have a pass rusher"

"Huh?"

"Yeah, look at Dallas, they have Demarcus Ware and he's a monster pass rusher"

"Yeah, but the Dallas pass defense was even worse than ours and if was worse than in 2009, with Ware having a great year"

"You don't understand, they would have been even worse if they didn't have him."

"How do you know that?"

"Well, because Ware is a great pass rusher because he applies pressure."

"Yeah, but isn't the idea to have great pass defense"

" That's a given if you have a great pass rusher.....if you look at Ware and ignore the everything else. if we had a great pass rush specialist we can be just like Dallas.....because they have a great pass rusher."

Were they bad BECAUSE OF HIM or IN SPITE OF HIM? You can't answer that question, can you?

I don't care what Dallas was or is, my concern is what it will take to improve New England, will Ware make us better? Can you answer that directly?

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

For the love of god will you cut it out and let the thread go back to what it should be ?

I still don't think we'll take an OLB at 1a but I guess Kerrigan has impressed at the Senior Bowl, if he's strong enough against the run maybe Bill will surprise me . . . but I still don't think so.

Well.....the thread is about OLB's. We know BB likes flexible LB's that can do many things well. Sounds like that criteria (what the coach likes) is a good basis for evaluating talent.

It's like every thread degenerates into a pass rusher thread. I wouldn't suprised if there is a thread on drafting a new long snapper because he can also pass rush.

Reading through the various reports, it seems to me the kid from Missouri has a diverse skillset. He also looks very light in his weight.

Is Kerrigan showing the skillsets required of a Belichick OLB? Ignoring what BB likes only means disapointment in April.

 

[BelichickFan]

Is Kerrigan showing the skillsets required of a Belichick OLB? Ignoring what BB likes only means disapointment in April.

I still maintain that Belichick won't take a guy with such a drastic position change in the first round; that has been correct over the years, we'll see if this is different. Regarding Kerrigan it sounds like the pass rush expected has definitely shown up; I've read about some issues tackling in space, not much about his run defense.