Patriots have a Top 10 defense

[mb6592]

Like I said, how many other defenses in the league have your eyes watched this season enough to override the facts? You've seen 10-15 that are consistently better than what we have and never falter?

This is a silly argument. As I posted previously, "Top 10? Please. 10-12 or 14-16? Who cares? This defense almost always lets down when it matters most, and has for some time (even against the likes of Orton, Henne & Sanchez). I understand that this defense is not the defense of the last few years, so I guess we have to give it more time - but, I don't think things will change until we get some pass rushers. This is a passing rushing league now, the DB's are less important (unless you have a Revis - I hate to admit). The Saints beat us with CB's that were furniture movers the week before."

The bottom line is we have all, collectively, seen solid defensive play in our time, and the Pats of the last few years don't measure up.

 

[condon84]

So let me see if I've got this - the defense isn't a problem. They are top 10, ranked 7th, exactly what we hoped they would be, etc.

The offense is the problem. What confuses me about that logic is that offense is 5th in points. And it is on pace for 437 points this year, the 3rd most in the history of the franchise. Clearly they aren't the problem then if the logic applied to the defense is applied to them, right?

Of course, the offense has been a problem this year. They have beat up on bad teams and not performed as well against the better teams - specifically relating to the second half of games against teams with a pulse. They have also failed to come through with the type of situational football that wins close games.

The offenses problems exist, they just don't somehow make the defensive issues this team has (and has had for a couple years now) cease to exist.

I agree with this. For all the defense' shortcomings, if our offense didn't get outplayed so much in the second half of games, we'd probably be a 10 win team right now.

I still think our defense is just average, but our offense has been more disappointing.

I was watching the Ravens last night and saw Kelly Washington make critical catches, just like he's made them all season. I believe he's caught more 3rd down conversions than any WR the Ravens have. Kelly's not the fastest or quickest guy, and it's not like the Ravens have the caliber of talent we have on offense, yet he's been catching passes in critical junctions of a lot of games this year. Something our WR corps have failed to do. Which highlights the shortcomings of our offense as my biggest issue. We have Moss, Welker, Brady, Faulk, Watson, Maroney, yet we fail so horribly in the second half or critical parts of the game. Our offensive brain trust so far has exhibited a lack of imagination and willingness to adapt to get over the hump and it is exposing an average defense..................anyways, rant over.

Back to the subject. Our defense is average.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

This is a silly argument. As I posted previously, "Top 10? Please. 10-12 or 14-16? Who cares? This defense almost always lets down when it matters most, and has for some time (even against the likes of Orton, Henne & Sanchez). I understand that this defense is not the defense of the last few years, so I guess we have to give it more time - but, I don't think things will change until we get some pass rushers. This is a passing rushing league now, the DB's are less important (unless you have a Revis - I hate to admit). The Saints beat us with CB's that were furniture movers the week before."

The bottom line is we have all, collectively, seen solid defensive play in our time, and the Pats of the last few years don't measure up.

It's not what it used to be, but that doesn't mean it's not a solid defense. For the circumstances and the recent direction we've taken towards building around a high powered offense while rebuilding on defense, they have held their own and the #'s show.

 

[Deus Irae]

So in one corner we have cold facts that have us ranked in the top 10 in PPG suggesting we are at worst an average solid defense. And in the other corner it's Deus Irae telling people they're wrong and insisting some highlight reels convince him he can name 15+ better defenses. Decisions, decisions who shall I believe.

Should I await your final decision with eager anticipation?

By the way, how "top 10" at worst an average solid defense? If you're going to ignore everything but the number, go whole hog. Top 10 is better than average, even 'at worst'. In this case, you're talking about top 7, top quarter of the league. If you're going to pimp the number without regard to what else is out there, pimp it all the way.

 

[unoriginal]

Should I await your final decision with eager anticipation?

By the way, how "top 10" at worst an average solid defense? If you're going to ignore everything but the number, go whole hog. Top 10 is better than average, even 'at worst'. In this case, you're talking about top 7, top quarter of the league. If you're going to pimp the number without regard to what else is out there, pimp it all the way.

You may have missed all the posts regarding the DVOA statistics, which indicate the defense is merely average.

 

[Deus Irae]

You may have missed all the posts regarding the DVOA statistics, which indicate the defense is merely average.

I didn't miss them. I just think that they undersell the level of suck this team has faced. The numbers should improve a bit more over the last month as the Patriots face even more terrible offenses, and the data will become even more skewed as a result.

I don't think the defense is Godawful or anything like that. It should do well against Carolina, Buffalo and Jacksonville. It should even do well against Houston, because Houston's a lot like Atlanta in that it's a decent, but soft, offense. The offense should be able to put it in position to get the job done, as it has most weeks. I just see a defense that's below average.

 

[dhamz]

You may have missed all the posts regarding the DVOA statistics, which indicate the defense is merely average.

I think those stats rank the defense relative to the rest of the league so it would indicate they are in the middle of the pack which is not the same thing as average.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Should I await your final decision with eager anticipation?

By the way, how "top 10" at worst an average solid defense? If you're going to ignore everything but the number, go whole hog. Top 10 is better than average, even 'at worst'. In this case, you're talking about top 7, top quarter of the league. If you're going to pimp the number without regard to what else is out there, pimp it all the way.

Absolutely you should.

As far as pimping it all the way, in a game like football there's always a degree of variance so a 7 ranking isn't concrete by any means and I accept that. I could see sliding them down a few slots or debating whether it's a top 10 defense but I definitely can't see taking a 7 ranking and skewing it to suggest it's a below average defense.

 

[bostonia3333]

Pats have a bad immature poorly coached defense--this team doesn't deserve to make the playoffs--no heart, no fire, no sense of urgency to make plays. The Pats control time of possession on offense to hide this disaster that is this defensive unit. The Pats D haven't stopped any qb from having a game winning drive this year in my mind. Does the Ravens game "count" as a defensive stop? It took a choke by Clayton to bail us out there--Ravens WOULD have scored. How bout the Buffalo game? 50 seconds left against Buffalo with a one point lead. Trent Edwards throws a 20 yd pass to TO, all of a sudden BUF is close to midfield and we can't sack a qb in an obvious passing situation. How bout the heart palpitating lateral that went on forever at the end. I guess you can call that a stop, but still. This defense is not clutch.

Look at the other bizarre problems we have. We don't kick FGs anymore. We don't use tight ends. We don't run the ball when we got it going. We throw 50 yd bombs on 2nd and 1. We choke on 3rd down and short, and 3rd and long. Our offensive line stinks when we are behind in the game. Somehow we are miraculously 7-5 and leading this division. I guess I'll take it.

 

[IcyPatriot]

My opinion is the same ... given the talent I think the defense has been doing a good job. They have been on the field too much in the 2nd half of some games this year. Which coupled with the D-Line injuries has led to some breakdowns. Also I think the young secondary could use some sideline coaching but they've been on the field too much.

If the O-Line heals and Vollmer can get Kaczur on the bench then the offense will play better which will directly affect the defensive play in the 2nd half of games. Sound simple but I think it covers much of our problems.

 

[ATippett56]

The New England Patriots fell to 17th in DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) for total defense after the Miami Dolphins game.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2009 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

 

[Disco Volante]

The New England Patriots fell to 17th in DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) for total defense after the Miami Dolphins game.

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | 2009 DEFENSE EFFICIENCY RATINGS

That site has the 49ers ranked as a Top 5 defense in the NFL.

Not going to agree there.

 

[Deus Irae]

That site has the 49ers ranked as a Top 5 defense in the NFL.

Not going to agree there.

The 49ers are 10th in scoring defense.

 

[Disco Volante]

The 49ers are 10th in scoring defense.

Again, they're certainly not a top 5 defense.

I don't see how the argument can be made that their defense is even better than the Patriots defense.

 

[Deus Irae]

Again, they're certainly not a top 5 defense.

I don't see how the argument can be made that their defense is even better than the Patriots defense.

They've faced arguably better offenses and have a lesser offense to help them, yet the defense is allowing less than a point more per game. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just pointing it out in response to your take on that 49er defense.

 

[Garbanza]

PPG

1) Bengals - 15.6
2) Colts - 16.8
3) Broncos - 16.8
4) Jets - 17.3
5) Cowboys - 17.8
6) Ravens - 17.9
7) Patriots - 18.7
8) Packers - 19.1
9) Steelers - 19.2
10) Vikings - 19.4

Can someone please try to explain to me why you feel they're "one of the worst in the NFL" or not even solid?

Try giving it the "eye test" You know, what do your eyes tell you? My eyes tell me that there is no pass rush, that the secondary is confused, the linebackers are playing mediocre and that they are frustrated. Those stats are terribly skewed by the garabge teams the Pats have played.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm absolutely shocked at the amount of people in here that are trying to justify calling this defense a top ten defense. They might be ranked there right now, but with the way they are playing they won't be for long. Anybody that thinks this is a top ten defense should have their eyes examined, because it most certainly is not.

This still doesn't take the cake though. That would be the guy that tried to justify the lack of pass rush by saying that we were a bend but don't break defense and, therefore, weren't SUPPOSED to have a pass rush.

EDIT: And no, that wasn't in this thread.

 

[DocE]

Try giving it the "eye test" You know, what do your eyes tell you? My eyes tell me that there is no pass rush, that the secondary is confused, the linebackers are playing mediocre and that they are frustrated. Those stats are terribly skewed by the garabge teams the Pats have played.

I was going to post a similar response about using your eyes. If you watch this team every week, it's quite apparent that the Patriots are not a top 10 defense. The Patriots have done a great job in time of possesion all year and also benefit from giving up a total of 7 points to the Titans and Buccaneers.

 

[Disco Volante]

The Patriots will finish with a top 5 scoring defense at season's end.

That's quite fine with me.

 

[Mack Herron]

Tough to argue with Banks assessment of a steep decline in talent on teh defensive side:

New England Patriots are struggling; Brett Favre trend continues - Don Banks - SI.com

"While each subtraction looks defensible in and of itself, the cumulative effect of trying to play without Richard Seymour, Mike Vrabel, Rodney Harrison and Tedy Bruschi has created a void greater than the sum of its parts. Especially when Asante Samuel and Ellis Hobbs are still missed in Foxboro.

Add to that the discouraging reality that New England has swung and missed in terms of the defensive veterans it has acquired in recent years. The level of exposure the Patriots young defensive players are suffering was supposed to be minimized by the likes of cornerback Shawn Springs, linebacker/defensive end Derrick Burgess and linebacker Adalius Thomas. But New England has gotten little or no impact from those veterans, and that has made it rely too heavily on young players who just aren't ready for the roles they were drafted to fill (see Jonathan Wilhite, Darius Butler and Terrence Wheatley)."