OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)

[rochrist]

Well not to dis Baylor or West but i would say only wilt Chamberlain is a guy i would put up in that all time category as a true all time great with Bird, Magic, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Russel, Jordan, ect...

He had the misfortune to go up against the most dominant team in all of sports history within their era. I doubt he can be faulted the way Lebron can.

You shoould research Elgin a little more. He was pretty great.

 

[rochrist]

Hmm. Read elsewhere: Kyrie Irving gets backdoored more than Sasha Gray.

 

[Deus Irae]

not kidding. both west and bron are all time greats. just getting there is an achievement. better team always wins in a 7 game series. and even though west went 1-8, it ain't his fault. check his stats. dude balled in finals.

bron will get there more. 1 more chip would cement his legacy as a top 5 all time IMO. overall body of work is already too great. cavs are losing to 73-9 one of the all time great team. no shame in that.

oh by the way, i'm from michigan. i hate the cavs.

It would have been better for you had you been kidding. Your follow up here is pathetic in what it ignores. The 1-8 guy is defending the 2-4 guy on the basis that losing in the finals isn't that bad a thing.

Come on, now. Think that through. Hell, we've got people on this board (and throughout the sports world, in general) who think 4-2 in the Super Bowl is worse than 4-0, yet you're stepping up for 2-4.

 

[juny]

Well there is still time to right the ship but if his career ends after this series and he loses and is 2-5 I will not make an excuse for him. He will have under performed. You can excuses away a series here and there but 5 loses is pretty damning with only 2 wins.

I don't know about damning. His 3 Cleveland teams were clearly vast underdogs in their Finals appearances. As for the Heat appearances, I say 2-2 is what is expected considering the teams they faced.

 

[IcyPatriot]

How to beat LeBron ... you punch him in the mouth when the refs are not helping him.
Yesterday the refs refused to support him ... he knew it ... he shriveled.

 

[supafly]

He was extremely inefficient in last years finals and HAD to put up those numbers because he literally had nobody else to play with because of injury..... And he lost..... So, sorry, not impressed. Put up giant, efficient numbers when your team needs you to do if all and WIN and I'll give him praise.

Sorry, he's not in the Jordan/Magic/Bird territory yet.

Yes, we understand your feeings on LeBron underwhelming in the postseason, but pointing to a 2012 game vs. Boston as an "outlier" was incorrect.

He's had those types of performances before.

 

[AvocadoIceCream]

Not many, lol

 

[AvocadoIceCream]

His teams are a reflection on him. When the going gets tough, quit.

 

[rochrist]

Yes, we understand your feeings on LeBron underwhelming in the postseason, but pointing to a 2012 game vs. Boston as an "outlier" was incorrect.

He's had those types of performances before.

He's also flat out quit in series deciding games before. All time greats do not quit.

 

[supafly]

I don't know about damning. His 3 Cleveland teams were clearly vast underdogs in their Finals appearances. As for the Heat appearances, I say 2-2 is what is expected considering the teams they faced.

No one seems to be putting the 3 finals performances with Cleveland into context, although I'm not sure why? They got swept by San Antonio with a lousy team, didn't have 2/3 top players in last year's finals, etc.

This year they just look completely overwhelmed by a team who set a record for number of victories. There have been plenty of postseason games where James played well, although that usually hasn't followed over the to finals. The east is garbage.

 

[juny]

No one seems to be putting the 3 finals performances with Cleveland into context, although I'm not sure why? They got swept by San Antonio with a lousy team, didn't have 2/3 top players in last year's finals, etc.

This year they just look completely overwhelmed by a team who set a record for number of victories. There have been plenty of postseason games where James played well, although that usually hasn't followed over the to finals. The east is garbage.

The east is garbage, like the AFC was in the 80s-90s when the NFC owned the super bowl.

 

[Deus Irae]

No one seems to be putting the 3 finals performances with Cleveland into context, although I'm not sure why? They got swept by San Antonio with a lousy team, didn't have 2/3 top players in last year's finals, etc.

This year they just look completely overwhelmed by a team who set a record for number of victories. There have been plenty of postseason games where James played well, although that usually hasn't followed over the to finals. The east is garbage.

Because you can't pimp "He's gone to 7 finals!" while ignoring the general weakness of the competition to get there, and then turn around and cry that he's lost 4 of 6 finals because the other teams were good, and expect not to be laughed at.

 

[supafly]

He's also flat out quit in series deciding games before. All time greats do not quit.

I don't have much of a horse in this race aside from the fact that I'd personally prefer to see the fans of that area have some good in their lives for a change, but I've witnessed some games where he carried the team on his back by himself plenty of times, and so have you.

I don't know why he mentally checked out in the past and it's not exusable, but are you going to argue any differently for guys like Randy Moss, Kobe Bryant, etc? The whole body of work should be taken into account, and it's fairly obvious that James has been one of the top talents in this past generation--even with glaring flaws. I don't know or care where he lands on the all time list, and I would agree that acts like that bump his consideration down.

 

[rochrist]

The point is, no, Bird would never quit. Neither would Jordan, or Kobe or Russell, or any other of the players that truly belong in the all time great discussion.

 

[supafly]

Because you can't pimp "He's gone to 7 finals!" while ignoring the general weakness of the competition to get there, and then turn around and cry that he's lost 4 of 6 finals because the other teams were good, and expect not to be laughed at.

I'm not attempting to pimp him or his accomplishments that much, aside from claiming that some of the hatred may be a bit over the top. Just my opinion. The dude's still been pretty successful in this league. If you accept the fact that he's been one of the better players in the last 12+ years but still doesn't crack the top 10-12 of all time, there's not much left to debate.

The only reason I even became involved in the conversation was because someone attempted to bolster their case by pointing out last year's finals stats as being poor, and that was beyond silly.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not attempting to pimp him or his accomplishments that much, aside from claiming that some of the hatred may be a bit over the top. Just my opinion. The dude's still been pretty successful in this league. If you accept the fact that he's been one of the better players in the last 12+ years but still doesn't crack the top 10-12 of all time, there's not much left to debate.

The only reason I even became involved in the conversation was because someone attempted to bolster their case by pointing out last year's finals stats as being poor, and that was beyond silly.

I wasn't saying you were pimping anything. I was answering your question about "why", with regards to the context you were supplying. You (general, not specific) can't be an honest debater if you (general, not specific) ignore than James has gotten to the finals because his competition has largely sucked, but then defend James' record in the finals on the basis of the superior competition of his opponents.

The reality is that, if James had been playing in the West instead of the East, there almost certainly wouldn't be 7 finals appearances being discussed.

 

[supafly]

The point is, no, Bird would never quit. Neither would Jordan, or Kobe or Russell, or any other of the players that truly belong in the all time great discussion.

I think you take issue with those who are attempting to put James in that discussion, and rightfully so, but that's not me.

I see a guy who's transformed lousy teams into instant contenders, yet still has flaws. There's no doubting that he's been one of the best players in the league over the past 12-13 years, but I wouldn't attempt to claim that means that he belongs in the all time discussion. Personally, without much thought and after seeing Deus' list for a brief glimpse, Id have him anywhere from 12-18, myself.

 

[rochrist]

I think you take issue with those who are attempting to put James in that discussion, and rightfully so, but that's not me.

I see a guy who's transformed lousy teams into instant contenders, yet still has flaws. There's no doubting that he's been one of the best players in the league over the past 12-13 years, but I wouldn't attempt to claim that means that he belongs in the all time discussion. Personally, without much thought and after seeing Deus' list for a brief glimpse, Id have him anywhere from 12-18, myself.

Ok.

 

[Ivan]

I think the real problem with James it's that he feels the need to run the team, and he really hurts their chances when they face well coached teams. The great NBA teams usually have a really good coach. Until James puts his ego aside and accepts good coaching this trend will continue.

 

[Deus Irae]

For the record, James is like Manning, in the sense that, whether you put him in the top 1, 5, 10, or 20, you are still acknowledging him as one of the very best of all-time. When you get to that level of elite, you're always looking at ways to separate one player from another, and it can be very difficult to find them.

Is Wilt, the greatest individual force to ever play the game, better than Russell, the greatest team player to ever play the game? That's a question that will never have a definitive answer, and that's the sort of situation we have with pretty much every "greatest ever" list. Hell, even hockey has the problem, albeit with only 2 players (Gretzky, Orr) really in the running for the top spot (no offense to Gordie Howe intended).