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OT: Bruce Allen going at Peter King RE: Patriots Draft

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Ian, May 5, 2009.

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  1. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    #17 Jersey

    Bruce Allen is calling out Peter King for being a bit hypocritical in criticizing the Patriots and praising the Eagles for how each team handled the draft. I watched the exchange on Twitter, and I support Bruce on this. I think he makes some excellent points and I find it interesting King addressed him in a column just published a little while ago:

    Boston Sports Media Watch Watching Peter King

    Ian
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Re: OT: Bruce Allen going at Peter King

    Peter King is a gossiping moron who adds zero value to sports journalism. He basically just flouts rumors, and is a barometer/parrot of mainstream mediots.

    His disgraceful articles and complete lack of understanding and hypocrisy over the Video Witch Hunt were despicable. Even now the guy doesn't understand that any team can still videotape hand signals at dozens of other locations in the stadium, just not on the sideline.
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  3. DarrylS

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    Bruce Allen does not get enough credit for what he does, one of my faves..
  4. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    Amen. I met him a few years back and I can also tell you that he's a terrific guy, and he's definitely come a long way since he started that site.
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  5. KDPPatsfan85

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    #51 Jersey

    Peter King :banned:
  6. Deus Irae

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    Allen's not 100% wrong, and King's not 100% right, but King is more correct on this than Allen.
  7. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    What are you smoking, did you not read the article? Allen just made a fool of King's hypocritically divergent opinions based on two teams doing very similar things in getting extra value.
  8. Deus Irae

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    I read the article by King, the response by Allen, the twitter exchange, and the King answer today. King has a point. Allen has a point. King's point is better than Allen's.
  9. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Then you share the same faulty reasoning/logic as King. King is *now* trying to make it about which team had the better talent haul, rather than about his initial view regarding how each team traded down for more picks.

    Allen isn't arguing about who picked better players. Since you don't get it, I'll explain it for you. Allen is calling out how the Eagles were praised by King for trading down for more picks and called 'innovative' and 'imaginative', and how the Patriots were 'drunk with power', 'strange', and 'uninspired' for the same moves of trading down for more picks.

    What part of King's argument is stronger than Allen's?
  10. Deus Irae

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    King's right on this and Allen is wrong. I say this not because Allen doesn't have a point (he does), and not because King is 100% correct (he's not), but because of the location of the picks make King's point for him despite his writing missteps. King's comments on the Patriots were a bit silly, because it's about a feeling as opposed to anything concrete, but that's what happens when you're dealing with a columnist and not a strict reporter. However, the Patriots accomplished their biggest moves because of maneuvers with a first round pick, while the Eagles did it with a third round pick. The Patriots could have had Oher and still gotten their 3 defensive choices and pushed a pick or two into the next year, but they got cute with their maneuvering.

    King's not 100% correct, as I stated, but his general argument is valid. The successful 'rebuttal' by the Patriots will happen only if the lower round players pan out as a group.
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  11. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    Deus yu're saying the Eagles did an even better, more efficient job of extracting value, is that correct? So you're arguing about different degrees of the same behavior, yes? How does that then somehow justify calling one team the model everyone should emulate, and then call another team strange, drunk, and uninspired, for doing varying degrees of the same thing?
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  12. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    That I think is more of the issue that Bruce has (which I agree with) then whether the two teams outperformed eachother. The moves were similar, albeit different due to the varying degrees of perceived value. But for King to offer up such a different outlook using that type of verbage, I just think is unfair.
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  13. Deus Irae

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    No, that's not what I'm saying. Perhaps you should read King's MMQB Tuesday Edition, since you seem to have missed that part based upon your response here. As I said, Allen's not 100% wrong, King's not 100% right, but King is more right than Allen.
  14. PatriotsDaily.com

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    This is the entire point of the post.

    All the other stuff is secondary, the biggest point being made in the post is that both the Patriots and Eagles moved around during draft weekend. The Patriots do it, and it's "mystifying" and "drunk with power," while the Eagles "put on a draft clinic."

    It's way too early to tell whether either team was more successful than the other.
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  15. Deus Irae

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    The reality is that the Patriots could probably have gotten all 3 defensive players they picked in round 2 AND Michael Oher if they'd made trades differently, and still pushed a pick or two into next season. King looks at Oher as a much better option than Vollmer. In that context, King is absolutely correct about the trades.

    Where the Patriots can 'rebut' this is in the future. If Oher craps out, or Vollmer becomes a legitimate force at LT and the players drafted lower in this draft mostly work out, BB will have been correct and brilliant. If they don't, he'll have been too cute by half.

    Right now, King's going with too cute by half.

    Comparing that to the Eagles, who got bonafide players PLUS the players they wanted by merely parlaying a lower round pick, King sees the Eagles as brilliantly massaging the draft and the Patriots fiddling about. I don't really see an issue here, but it's the offseason, so I'm not surprised that people are getting testy about draft interpretation even as they insist that draft interpretation is utterly useless for at least a couple of years post-draft.
  16. Deus Irae

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    They were silly because he chose silly words, not because he didn't have a possibly valid point.
  17. Sicilian

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    I think your arguments would be a whole lot less abrasive if you changed the wording from "King's right on this and Allen is wrong" to something like "I lean closer to King than I do Allen." That at least implies a recognized opinion, as opposed to a claim of fact.

    All assumptions about the draft (including yours regarding what they could have gotten, or even if Oher was someone they wanted), is pure speculation. There is no such thing as draft facts when it comes to who made the best moves until about three years after the draft was completed.
  18. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    King's response/defense doesn't even make sense:
    [Though in principle you might be right, Bruce, it wasn’t the same thing. The Patriots didn’t have the same result in trading down as the Eagles did...]

    Allen isn't arguing about which team did better. Allen is calling out King for bashing one team and praising another for different degrees of the same smart behavior/strategy.

    Of course it "wasn't the same thing", King you moron. King is so dumb he doesn't even know what Allen is arguing about. Perhaps that's why Allen ended with, "I guess that’s all we can do right now", after realizing he was trying to argue with a pea brain.
  19. Pats67

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    That probably explains why the results of the trades left the Patriots two extra picks in the top 65, as opposed to four extra picks in the next 200.
    This assumes that Oher was a target going in. I'd be interested to know how you discovered this was a priority for them. Or maybe you're just going with your feeling, as opposed to anything concrete.
  20. Sicilian

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    Again, not to belabor my point, but you have no idea what kind of players the Eagles got yet.
  21. Deus Irae

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    Ellis Hobbs says hello
  22. Dirk3601215

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    someone tell fatso to stop covering football and start writing about braodway plays. girlie guy.
  23. Deus Irae

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    I'm not sure how you figure that Oher wasn't a higher ranked player. He clearly was. He was considered one of the 4 top tackles. What BB has on his board doesn't matter. This is a draft evaluation and the reporters/analysts/columnists base everything off of their baselines, not the baselines of specific teams.
  24. Deus Irae

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    Then why is this even a point of discussion?
  25. Ian

    Ian Administrator Staff Member

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    I think we're arguing over semantics at that point. Again, who's right or wrong isn't the issue, and I think Bruce just admitted that. I think the bigger issue (and as I said I agree with Bruce) is that if King felt that the Eagles did better than New England, the simple fact is he could have put it far more eloquently than calling what New England did "mystifying" and saying they were "drunk with power."
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  26. Deus Irae

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    His response makes sense. Perhaps if you actually thought about it rather than calling someone else a pea brain...
    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  27. Sicilian

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    In the draft itself I mean, come on now. My point is that, if you accept that the strategies for the two teams were the same (trade down, get additional picks this year and next while still getting the guy you want), then the only case that can be made for the Eagles is that they got better players in the draft. Aside from Hobbs, every single player both teams got is an unknown until proven otherwise.
  28. Pats67

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    So basically, assume whatever the Patriots did is wrong, and work your way back.
  29. Deus Irae

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    But Hobbs is part of the point King was making. Dismissing it is like dismissing Welker and Moss.

    Here's what King's saying:

    Last edited: May 5, 2009
  30. Sicilian

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    My point in that quote was more related to Deus' approach to the argument, but your point stands. It was off topic.

    But I believe that what King said is, to put it more tactfully, a bending of the facts to fit a biased opinion. When looked at objectively (as best I can through my admitted bias), I honestly can't see a big difference in what the two teams did. The argument then boils down to who picked the best players, which can't be judged for a long time.
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