OT: Bruce Allen going at Peter King RE: Patriots Draft

[Deus Irae]

Again, not to belabor my point, but you have no idea what kind of players the Eagles got yet.

Ellis Hobbs says hello

 

[Dirk3601215]

someone tell fatso to stop covering football and start writing about braodway plays. girlie guy.

 

[Deus Irae]

That probably explains why the results of the trades left the Patriots two extra picks in the top 65, as opposed to four extra picks in the next 200.

This assumes that Oher was a target going in. I'd be interested to know how you discovered this was a priority for them. Or maybe you're just going with your feeling, as opposed to anything concrete.

I'm not sure how you figure that Oher wasn't a higher ranked player. He clearly was. He was considered one of the 4 top tackles. What BB has on his board doesn't matter. This is a draft evaluation and the reporters/analysts/columnists base everything off of their baselines, not the baselines of specific teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

All assumptions about the draft (including yours regarding what they could have gotten, or even if Oher was someone they wanted), is pure speculation. There is no such thing as draft facts when it comes to who made the best moves until about three years after the draft was completed.

Then why is this even a point of discussion?

 

[Ian]

I think your arguments would be a whole lot less abrasive if you changed the wording from "King's right on this and Allen is wrong" to something like "I lean closer to King than I do Allen." That at least implies a recognized opinion, as opposed to a claim of fact.

I think we're arguing over semantics at that point. Again, who's right or wrong isn't the issue, and I think Bruce just admitted that. I think the bigger issue (and as I said I agree with Bruce) is that if King felt that the Eagles did better than New England, the simple fact is he could have put it far more eloquently than calling what New England did "mystifying" and saying they were "drunk with power."

 

[Deus Irae]

King's response/defense doesn't even make sense:
[Though in principle you might be right, Bruce, it wasn’t the same thing. The Patriots didn’t have the same result in trading down as the Eagles did...]

Allen isn't arguing about which team did better. Allen is calling out King for bashing one team and praising another for different degrees of the same smart behavior/strategy.

Of course it "wasn't the same thing", King you moron. King is so dumb he doesn't even know what Allen is arguing about. Perhaps that's why Allen ended with, "I guess that’s all we can do right now", after realizing he was trying to argue with a pea brain.

His response makes sense. Perhaps if you actually thought about it rather than calling someone else a pea brain...

 

[Sicilian]

Ellis Hobbs says hello

In the draft itself I mean, come on now. My point is that, if you accept that the strategies for the two teams were the same (trade down, get additional picks this year and next while still getting the guy you want), then the only case that can be made for the Eagles is that they got better players in the draft. Aside from Hobbs, every single player both teams got is an unknown until proven otherwise.

 

[Pats67]

So basically, assume whatever the Patriots did is wrong, and work your way back.

 

[Deus Irae]

In the draft itself I mean, come on now. My point is that, if you accept that the strategies for the two teams were the same (trade down, get additional picks this year and next while still getting the guy you want), then the only case that can be made for the Eagles is that they got better players in the draft. Aside from Hobbs, every single player both teams got is an unknown until proven otherwise.

But Hobbs is part of the point King was making. Dismissing it is like dismissing Welker and Moss.

Here's what King's saying:

The Patriots didn’t have the same result in trading down as the Eagles did, though they did acquire two second-round picks in 2010 in their wheeling-and-dealing. Philadelphia traded down six spots late in the third round and got one of the top guys they would have taken at 85 (Cornelius Ingram), half the value of a starting corner (Ellis Hobbs), a seventh-round pick this year and third-, fifth- and sixth-round picks next year … and still exited the draft with three potential impact players in 2009 — Jason Peters, Jeremy Maclin and LeSean McCoy.

 

[Sicilian]

I think we're arguing over semantics at that point. Again, who's right or wrong isn't the issue, and I think Bruce just admitted that. I think the bigger issue (and as I said I agree with Bruce) is that if King felt that the Eagles did better than New England, the simple fact is he could have put it far more eloquently than calling what New England did "mystifying" and saying they were "drunk with power."

My point in that quote was more related to Deus' approach to the argument, but your point stands. It was off topic.

But I believe that what King said is, to put it more tactfully, a bending of the facts to fit a biased opinion. When looked at objectively (as best I can through my admitted bias), I honestly can't see a big difference in what the two teams did. The argument then boils down to who picked the best players, which can't be judged for a long time.

 

[BTTA]

I'm not sure how you figure that Oher wasn't a higher ranked player. He clearly was. He was considered one of the 4 top tackles. What BB has on his board doesn't matter. This is a draft evaluation and the reporters/analysts/columnists base everything off of their baselines, not the baselines of specific teams.

Oher wasn't one of the 4 top tackles on the Pats board, but he was on the Raven's board, because he is evaluated as not smart enough to handle the requirements of the Pat's OL. The Ravens are acknowledged to have a simpler scheme that he has a change to fit into.

Oher could become an All Pro with Baltimore and still not been the right pick for the Pats (because he wouldn't be an All Pro in NE).

The general draft evaluation, an amalgamation of people who are guessing at the evaluations of the teams, is useless to everybody except for entertainment purposes. It isn't used by a single team to draft a single player.

 

[Sicilian]

But Hobbs is part of the point King was making. Dismissing it is like dismissing Welker and Moss.

Here's what King's saying:

I'm not dismissing it. But without getting into this argument for the second day in a row, I'm not putting Hobbs on the same level as Moss or Welker just yet. He's a proven commodity, but not a game changer. We don't know how he'll react to the Eagles system, whether he'll be better or worse than he was here. Moss and Welker we didn't know either at the time, but we do now so they can be judged.

There is no way to say the Eagles results will be better than the Patriots, and I believe it is hard to argue the strategies were any different. So how can one be praised while the other berated? That was Allen's point, and that is why I agree with him moreso than King.

 

[Deus Irae]

It doesn't matter where BB had Oher rated, or where he had anyone else rated. This isn't the BB draft grades. Maybe when people start actually thinking about what they respond to rather than waiting to attack every media person who isn't blowing 100% sunshine up the Patriots' skirts we can have a more rational discussion.

As betterthanthealternative... noted above,

The general draft evaluation, an amalgamation of people who are guessing at the evaluations of the teams, is useless to everybody except for entertainment purposes. It isn't used by a single team to draft a single player.

 

[Pats67]

I'm not sure how you figure that Oher wasn't a higher ranked player. He clearly was. He was considered one of the 4 top tackles. What BB has on his board doesn't matter. This is a draft evaluation and the reporters/analysts/columnists base everything off of their baselines, not the baselines of specific teams.

So basically, you and King assign Oher to the Patriots based on your "baselines" - and not, by the way, on anything beyond your own speculation - and then criticize them after for not choosing him, even going so far as to say what the particular organization values in a player "doesn't matter".

Nice racket you got there.

 

[Deus Irae]

So basically, you and King assign Oher to the Patriots based on your "baselines" - and not, by the way, on anything beyond your own speculation - and then criticize them after for not choosing him, even going so far as to say what the particular organization values in a player "doesn't matter".

Nice racket you got there.

It's not my baseline.

 

[Sicilian]

It doesn't matter where BB had Oher rated, or where he had anyone else rated. This isn't the BB draft grades. Maybe when people start actually thinking about what they respond to rather than waiting to attack every media person who isn't blowing 100% sunshine up the Patriots' skirts we can have a more rational discussion.

As betterthanthealternative... noted above,

I'm sure there are some who are attacking King just because he's not bowing to the Pats, but honestly, do you think so little of us? So now, one can't even defend his hometown team without automatically being a homer?

When I look at Allen's argument, which has nothing to do with the caliber of players drafted and simply points out an inconsistency in King's evaluations from team to team, I see someone making a good point. If you feel the players the Eagles got were better, that's fine, that's your opinion. If you think the Eagles and Patriots approaches were as vastly different as King's comments on them make them out to be, I wholeheartedly disagree.

 

[Snapper]

It's not my baseline.

No kidding. Your baseline keeps moving.

 

[Deus Irae]

No kidding. Your baseline keeps moving.

My baseline has nothing to do with it, particularly since I didn't have one, but thanks for jumping in anyway.

 

[maverick4]

So basically, you and King assign Oher to the Patriots based on your "baselines" - and not, by the way, on anything beyond your own speculation - and then criticize them after for not choosing him, even going so far as to say what the particular organization values in a player "doesn't matter".

Nice racket you got there.

Peter King and Deus went to the Ron Borges school of draft analysis.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm sure there are some who are attacking King just because he's not bowing to the Pats, but honestly, do you think so little of us?

Yes, because I read the threads here where people go out of their way to do precisely that, regardless of the author. Obviously, I'm not aiming my response at every Patsfans.com poster, but there are a fair number of them who this applies to. Go take a look at threads with anything Tomase, Borges, King, Felger, etc. write, threads with ESPN or Herald content, the recent SMY threads, etc...

So now, one can't even defend his hometown team without automatically being a homer?

Attacking King in this instance does nothing to defend the hometown team. Disagreeing with his evaluation of the Patriots' draft is not the same as railing against some perceived double standard which gives the Eagles the nod over the Patriots.

When I look at Allen's argument, which has nothing to do with the caliber of players drafted and simply points out an inconsistency in King's evaluations from team to team, I see someone making a good point. If you feel the players the Eagles got were better, that's fine, that's your opinion. If you think the Eagles and Patriots approaches were as vastly different as King's comments on them make them out to be, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Allen's argument was fatally flawed the moment he failed to take the difference in rounds and the actual NFL player involved into account. It was made further incorrect by failing to concede that the major defensive players picked up by the Patriots with the drop down could probably have been gotten anyway, with the use of other picks. That's the benefit of having 11 picks in the draft to start out with.

You may like what the Patriots did. King wasn't as impressed. Allen wasn't all wrong, but he definitely wasn't all right, either. And again, if this stuff doesn't matter, why is it a point of discussion?