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Opinion: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by BigMike, Feb 16, 2008.

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  1. BigMike

    BigMike PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Because Krafty and BB arent going to keep ingesting this **** sandwich from Mangina-Specter. That can be the only reason why Leahy of Vermont is willing to keep this dog and pony show going. Leahy is from VERMONT - NE Patriots territory.

    Enough is enough, the NFL is culpable for destoying the evidence, which contained other teams cheating. So let Walshie show his tape, this thing is going to explode into allegations of other teams cheating. Look for BB to rat out Parcells, Crennel, Jets, Colts you name it.

    A pathetic chapter in league history - but we cant expect the Pats to keep taking this laying down since every team cheats. I support Kraft and BB if they start singing like songbirds about the eveidence they submitted to the NFL about other teams.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2008
  2. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

    it just needs to end... hopefully free agency and the draft will bring back some football
  3. DropKick Flutie

    DropKick Flutie Rookie

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    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

    If everyone does it, it needs to stop. If BB is forced to talk, he should bring everyone down with him. Dungy, Parcells, Gibbs, Knox, Levy, Lombardi... who cares at this point. Fans want the game to be played on the field, not by some clipboard holding fanboy with a camcorder on the sidelines.
  4. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Unfortunately, this whole thing has the potential to get out of control before it's too late. A lot of teams are going to wish they had tried to bury this from the get go.:(
  5. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

    I think a lot of fans enjoy the strategizing and gameplanning that goes on before and during a game... I gotta be honest that for all the bluster, I don't really understand why the rule exists in the first place...
  6. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

    Me too, It's as close to a life size game of chess that you'll find, BUT because the Patriots are the one's who got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, it's "cheating" and un-excuseable. If it had been the KC Chiefs doing it at a Houston Texans game, a mere fine and loss of a 4th round draft pick and never to be heard from again.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2008
  7. PatsFanJess

    PatsFanJess Rookie

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    He'd never rat out Crennel...nor would he or any of us want him too. Hes a supporter of Bill and a good guy. He'd always have Bill's back...i agree with you though about the rest.
  8. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    Im not doom and gloom about this, I just want it to end... But the last 2 weeks again have just plained sucked as a pat fan...
  9. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I do NOT want this to end. Not this time. This time this issue needs to be a league-wide investigation. In the end, the patriots do not figure to be any worse off than we are now.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008
  10. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ---- JAG ----- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    I still think Belichick should threaten he will sing or return the draft pick ... having 2 #1's would be very nice right about now.
  11. PatsFanJess

    PatsFanJess Rookie

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    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

    Ditto...can we now please sue Goodell for 3 billion dollars for discrimination. I mean I want to fit in too with all this cool lawsuit stuff.
  12. pheenix11

    pheenix11 Rookie

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    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal


    It is a stupid friggin rule. Just allow everyone to do it, who gives a shyt? Its called strategy.
  13. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Re: Spygate Will Explode Into A League-wide Scandal

    Why stop at just video? Doesn't the language in articles like this sound familiar? :rolleyes:
  14. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    It is far far more than just video taping...there are cap violations that HAVE happened in teh past..but there are MANY ways to push the envelope...and there have been articles about that..of picking up players from a team to pick their brains..to stealing plans and playbooks to the piping in of fake crowd noise to the negating of the black out period of 15 seconds between QB and coach. And that was alleged in a Mike Sando article in Sept that teams were doing that..(NOT the Patriots..but others) Now, think of the implications of that?? The D could be looked at and up to the snap, be told what teh D was doing from another view..NO blackout period..I think THAT has a lot larger implication cheating wise than any video..and yet, it is going on and NOT looekd at?? And what about looking at the refs and what could be going on there??? SO let it all open...or keep it closed..THAt simple..
    And they COULD have hushed it all up more or less..Goodell made a big point of it and thought it would end..instead, the haters have made it worse..Goodell has screwed it all up even more..let it get way way out of hand..and HE is more the cause of it than anyone to why. BIG mistakes.
    I also think that Kraft and BB have taken one for teh NFL at first and if this gets out of hand more than it has, I really think it will explode more. I don't think that Kraft will let the team get hammered again and again and just say it's OK to do..at some point, it will expand even more..and explode..I do agree..it will end or slowly end OR expand rapidly...
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I've contended all along that the tapes provided to the NFL showed that what the Pats did, is pretty much done by everyone else in the NFL.. if it goes to hearing this will be the result, in Goodell's rush to judgement he overreacted and now cannot go back.. that is why the tapes were destroyed, in his quest to preserve the "integrity of the game" he pretty much threw out the baby with the bathwater.
  16. PittPatriot

    PittPatriot PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If this is league-wide, then I am surprised NO ONE is willing to step and say, "Hey, the 4 of us did it too." While it is hard for anyone to self-incriminate, I can't imagine an entire fraternity of coaches just turning their back on BB. Aren't Andy Reid and BB friends? I bring him up because of the Eagles/Specter relationship. Maybe Cowher can even chime in (though unlikely).

    Even past coaches who are no longer in the game and candidly admit to it. Maybe Cowher can even chime in (though unlikely:rolleyes:). If everyone does it, then it is a disadvantage NOT to do it.
  17. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    They know it's leaguewide - and has been happening since the inception of the NFL. And this proves it, with a first hand account from an NFL Quarterback:

    http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html

    As I said in another thread, The NFL institutionally allows all of it because they have no choice. And as long as its an even playing field where they are treating each team the same, the integrity of the game is sound.

    The problem is, they are NOT treating the Patriots like any other team. They are singling them out and making them a scapegoat.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008
  18. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    MGTeich, it is incorrect to say that the Pats don't figure ever to be any worse off, but I am getting close to the same position you're taking.

    That is to say: worst case scenario? They can dock us the remainder of the 08 draft. They can ban BB from the league. They can essentially "Break Up The Patriots!" for winning too much (which is really where this thing gets its legs.)

    If the league says "okay, this morning, we're going to zig," and Kraft says "ya know what, Bill? Screw it. Start zagging," we might be on the way down that road. But I see the whole response as coming off as seamless and vertically integrated for quite some time. Kraft is not Al Davis.

    As for Belichick, he is most comfortable taking precisely the approach the Pats have taken thus far. He doesn't look for controversy, and doesn't like settling things in the press. He doesn't like to bow and scrape, and he doesn't like media appearances to jaw and accuse. He just likes to do the job.

    Now, if the strategy for the league/Pats becomes "no more Mr. Nice Guy," I don't see him as incapable of taking such actions, I just don't see him doing it as a loose cannon. Just like on the field, I think the Pats will "win as a team, or lose as a team."

    At some point, the League becomes the team's enemy, if they buckle to the outside pressure. Thus far, the League (in dealings with the Senator), protect the Pats' interests by protecting the League's interests.

    I.e., for the time being, the sovereignty of the League involves absolute control by the League, and not the government, over infractions/punishment. Having paid the league's price, it's in the Pats' interest to be in lockstep with the league -- unless the League starts losing the fight.

    At that point, the League stops defending absolute sovereignty, and starts trying to reserve some relative sovereignty... and will sacrifice the Pats to buy that for the League.

    It's a given that Sphincter wants to get the League to that point, but it's not a given that he can.

    So our guys need to have a contingency plan for that eventuality, and be ever vigilant for the moment that Goodell "rolls" on us. But in terms of this Senate process, Goodell has done nothing of the sort, yet. It's also in his interests to fight the Senate against any incursion into League authority.

    That's why right now we're not going down the public defensive road... that and the fact that it doesn't convince anybody but Pats fans anyway.

    On the other hand, this bullcrap doesn't convince Pats fans of anything either.

    Staying tuned,

    PFnV
  19. chrisfx811

    chrisfx811 Rookie

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    I still cannot believe the Broncos won 2 Superbowls when they were guilty of salary cap violations, and it basically went by the wayside.
    Where's the witch hunt?
    Where's ESPN interrogating Schlereth?
    WTF mate?

    I truly hopes this incident does blow up. At this point, it seems everyone is either a Pats fan, or someone who labels the Pats as cheaters since 'they're the only ones who got caught.'

    If all the evidence is truly gone, and all that's left is to open Matt Walsh's shoe box, then it seems as though it would come down to BB & Kraft's willingness to protect their collective image?
    Would Kraft distance himself from BB if it happens in order to save the face of the league, and just have 1 sacrificial lamb?
    Would Kraft back BB, and demand the whole truth come out so as not to take a hit to his team's image?
    Would the big market teams that have been on Kraft's side in the past, come to his aid now, or do they circle the wagons but leave BB & Kraft on the outside with nothing but their six shooters?
  20. marcus

    marcus Rookie

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    Unfortunately, I do not think this is going away soon.

    What few seem to realize is that if this thing is not slowed down, it will dramatically hurt EVERY team and the entire league...unnecessarily.

    It has the potential to affect advertisng and TV revenues as well as merchandising.

    Goodell knows this...hopefully the other 31 owners will fgure this out.

    THe US government is not sniffing around to punish the Patriots, they may be threatening ant trust exemption withdrawal which would have ridiculous complications for the league.
  21. Bella*chick

    Bella*chick Addicted to the light

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    Some past coaches have, like Jimmy Johnson. And the one current coach I'd be looking at is one Mike Shanahan. THere have been stories about him and the Broncos and not just the cap ones.

    But no currently employed coach is going to openly come take some heat. THey've seen what the media is doing to BB and the team's legacy. THat would be career suicide, particularly is there is a legacy to protect. Plus, it screws the league even more. And why would anyone want to risk their draft picks?
  22. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Sorry if I'm a broken record, but I just don't think we can emphasize the content of that Sports Magazine article from 1967 enough:http://www.thesportgallery.com/sport-stories/1967aug-nflspy.html


    Quote:
    In addition to interrogating former players, other football espionage techniques include:

    Watching practices. . . (Usually requires binoculars, sometimes a love of tree climbing.)

    Stealing notebooks. . . (One AFL coach, whose autobiography will no doubt be called "The Collector," has allegedly collected a notebook from every other team in the. league.)

    Bugging. . . Particularly scouting phones, locker rooms, training rooms and meeting rooms. (Most effective, though plantee had best not be caught with his insurance lapsed.)

    Filming practices. . . Requires a super spy plus special equipment.

    Spy-messenger . . . On game days this spy is usually disguised as a writer or photographer who snoops on one team and relays information to his employer. (Need a guy who looks like a writer or photographer; that is, disheveled.) .


    Here's an interesting comment from Grosscup that could just as well have been written in 2007:


    Quote:
    In the case of Jencks--and in most spy charges--there is usually an element of sour grapes. One seldom hears winning coaches register spy accusations. .


    Here's another tidbit from the article - again, first hand accounts that every reporter who has been covering this story since September has ignored - and is similarly being ignored by the U.S. Congress now:


    Quote:
    When I spoke to Al Davis recently about the present status of espionage in the American Football League, he said Kansas City was by far the worst offender. "The Chiefs are the Bears of the AFL," Davis said. "Lamar Hunt has come out publicly and admitted it."

    "You mean he's admitted he employs full-time spies?"

    "Yes, he's admitted budgeting for espionage. Of course, if you talk to him, he'll be just like all the rest of 'em--their favorite line is: 'We just don't do those things'--but ask anybody in the league and they'll tell you about Kansas City. Call Don Klosterman in Houston and ask him about the Chiefs."

    I spoke to Klosterman, a former Chiefs executive who is now general manager of the Oilers. "Oh yeah," Klosterman confirmed, "Kansas City spies, we caught 'em last year when we played them in their Municipal Stadium. See, the benches are on the same side of the field and they had this guy who was supposedly a roving photographer, but he was really a spy. . . He was snooping by our bench. Every time one of our coaches would say something important to one of our players, this guy would run over and relay the information to the Kansas City bench. I'm not makin' this up . . . we've got pictures of it."

    "So what happened?"

    "We registered a complaint with the league official. Kansas City got fined for it. That was their second offense with us. We caught 'em during preseason taking pictures of our practices with a Polaroid." ..


    Is it a coincidence that Specter doesn't seem interested in getting a deposition from Al Davis? Perhaps Comcast doesn't want him tearing down the NFL - just putting pressure on Goodell by making the Patriots a scapegoat


    Quote:

    Al Davis was the most direct person I interviewed on pro football espionage. "Oh I can't tell you lots of spy stories," Davis said. "But, it's like I told you, you'll never get them confirmed because everybody denies it . . . they all say 'we just don't do those things.' But you can take it from me, they do."
    Sure enough, he was right. The very next person I interviewed said he didn't believe in spying.

    "We don't. believe in spying here," Al Davis said. "And Sid Gillman at San Diego (Davis was once a Gillman assistant coach) doesn't do it either, but everybody thinks Sid does. .


    And just in case anyone thinks snooping on practices is a new phenomenon:


    Quote:
    The Rams were practicing at the old Hollywood Park. This kid hid under the scoreboard, see--he didn't know what time the Rams started practice so he got there early--took his lunch and a thermos of coffee. Turns out he had to stay all day because they didn't start till late afternoon. . . He was so close to the players and coaches that he could hear 'em talkin'. He confirmed that they were still all zone by watching for what I told him. When I was sure they were still all zone, I got together with the offensive coach, Luke Johnsos, and told Luke how he could beat the zone-- Force 'em out of the zone by going to a double-wing set, which would necessitate man-on-man coverage. We killed 'em with it . . . every third-and-long situation we just killed 'em. . . and it was all from the information I gave 'em by us in the spy.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2008
  23. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    This is the point that most people (including the media) are consistently missing. Kraft and Goodell have been in contact from the beginning of this whole affair. Even the punishment, while severe, was agreeable to Kraft (probably after some convincing) in the overall context of league integrity. Destruction of the video tapes? Kraft and Goodell both never wanted them to see the light of day ever again. There was nothing on those tapes/notes besides what Belichick admitted to and Goodell reported.

    Kraft and Goodell both know exactly what Walsh knows. They aren't afraid of it. They don't care if Specter sees it. This means one of 2 things:
    1) Walsh has videos of sideline taping (same old stuff)
    2) Walsh has videos of Rams walk-through, but has no way of implicating Belichick and Belichick will deny authorizing it.

    Goodell and Kraft already have this planned out. Their immunity offer to Walsh isn't going to get any better. It protects Walsh from prosecution but won't allow him to make a dime from what he has. That may be enough to keep Walsh silent since money is clearly his motivation and I doubt he wants to go through depositions and discovery out of the goodness of his heart.

    There are ways that Walsh could be compelled to testify (congress or court), but I doubt it will get that far. Congress won't call hearings without knowing what Walsh has and they must be prepared to investigate every other team. What senator is willing to expose his home team to that kind of scrutiny without knowing what will be found. If the Eagles were found to have some "shady" practices and were docked a draft pick, Specter would have to retire to Europe.

    As for the court option, I could get these lawsuits dismissed...so I'm fairly confident Kraft has lawyers that could do the same. So I anticipate this situation will not go down the "nuclear" path that many are predicting. Everyone is picking at the low-hanging fruit caused by this situation, but I doubt anyone is willing to put their life and reputation on the line when the sledding gets more difficult.
  24. PatsFanInVa

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    I posted elsewhere that from the POV of a true blue Pats fan, assuming the league continues to play well into the future, it would be hilarious if Sphincter gets his way, and the anti-trust exemption disappears.

    Think about it... all we sacrifice is a strike year or two. In return, wealthier teams (Skins, Pats, Cowboys, NY teams, a number of others...) load up on talent, since the salary cap is pretty much a collusive barrier to competition. The draft disappears... you just buy the young free agents as they emerge. Most comically of all, the vanished first round draft pick becomes utterly meaningless.

    Of course, these are all aspects of the Nuclear Option. I don't think Sphincter even has that option at his disposal. He just wants to wield the threat of it to get certain action out of Goodell, related to the Cable industry, and still LOOK like he's concerned about cheating -- and if you can get some super bowls voided, all the better... but the big "payoffs" are 1) threatening/weakening the league (in the hearing) and/or -- preferably -- swap cable concessions from Goodell for non-interference in league matters by government.

    A great outcome from Sphincter's point of view is...
    USA: God, we hate the Pats. Even more now.
    Sphincter: You see where this is going, right Rog?
    Goodell: Okay, we'll do it, we'll let Cable charge whatever they want for NFLN.
    Sphincter: Nothing to see here. I'm satisfied the league handled this well.
    Goodell (2 weeks later): We've reached a mutually satisfying agreement with Comcast and other cable carriers...

    Of course, to make this a likely outcome, people need to think "where's there's more smoke, there's more fire, and it is worth inserting Congress into the NFL's business to root it out."

    That's where the answer has to depend on people taking this real-life seriously, not football-loyalties seriously. I don't know the numbers on this split. It would be interesting to know this answer among voters (not just fans) nationwide.

    I don't think Sphincter has the heft in congress to swing this, but I believe he's banking on the grand total patriot-hate among constituencies to put him over the top... in other words, to convince the country that it is the business of politicians to regulate the NFL at selected moments, and therefore deliver witchunt participation in the form of other Senators/congressmen.

    If he goes it alone, without other support, he just looks dumb. If other sore losers jump the bandwagon (i.e., if their own constituents believe the witchunt's a good idea,) Sphincter pursues it.

    It is a gamble, of course. If the league reacts with solidarity, and will even accept the loss of the anti-trust exemption to remain aloof of government oversight, Sphincter has to deal with the consequences, which are ironically as pro-Patriots, in a world of post-exemption competition, as they are deleterious to league interests in general.

    Obviously nobody wants that outcome. What remains to be seen is where in the middle all this idiocy stops.

    PFnV
  25. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    I doubt that wiull happen with teh exemption voided..but who stands up to Spector and either 1---thinks it is so ridiculous to look into any of this for Comgress or 2---wants a LARGE investigation of ALL of the NFL and many many practices??? I just who we as fans can pressure who will aid in that?? It is becoming MORE an attack on teh NFL in general NOT just teh Pats and some of these idiot commentators need to understand that..to get out of the "hate the Pats" mode. Expand the looking and there will be much MORE to look at. Might the NFL boot Goodell for how he mishandled all of this?? I doubt many of teh owners are happy that it hasn't gone away...they might have been cheering Goodell at first with the anti-Patriot wave, but now, it's a lot deeper..
  26. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    I hope BB leaves Crennel out of this. Crennel and Weis were pretty much model assistants, who stayed longer than they had to and left only with Belichick's blessing. And besides, you really can't blame him for wanting to get out of Bill's shadow, given his defensive mastermind reputation and all.
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