on the positive, Josh Boyce looked good

[JMC00]

I know this is a strawman type thing but what Vereen has done in the passing game in his 5 games this year on a game average would have him on pace for 128 receptions and 1200 yards in a 16 game season.

Both would be season records for a running back.

 

[jsull87]

Both, and Woodhead wins out in each.



I don't really understand your issue here, so I don't really no what more I can say on the topic. The numbers are what the numbers are. Woodhead is more dependable, but Vereen is more explosive. The numbers bear that out, as does any eye test over the past 3 years.

BTW, Woodhead's rushing 1st down % this year is higher than Vereen's rushing 1st down % this year, so even that metric favors the little man.

Rushing yes by a couple of % but Vereen's Reciving 1st down percentage is 10% higher.

I guess that's what i am getting at. Your numbers are your numbers but then saying Woodhead is more dependable is IMO wrong as seen by the 1st down % numbers which favor Vereen.

All i was saying is Yards per catch, total yards, receptions e.t.c aren't measures of dependability. Dependability for me is measured by 3rd down conversions, % of first downs converted total, Thrown to on 3rd down (as a measure of how the QB sees the player's dependability).

I like both but i disagree that Woodhead is more dependable in anything other than he hasn't been injured as much. (however with the caveat that he has been concussed more which can end up taking a toll).

 

[Deus Irae]

Rushing yes by a couple of % but Vereen's Reciving 1st down percentage is 10% higher.

I guess that's what i am getting at. Your numbers are your numbers but then saying Woodhead is more dependable is IMO wrong as seen by the 1st down % numbers which favor Vereen.

All i was saying is Yards per catch, total yards, receptions e.t.c aren't measures of dependability. Dependability for me is measured by 3rd down conversions, % of first downs converted total, Thrown to on 3rd down (as a measure of how the QB sees the player's dependability).

I like both but i disagree that Woodhead is more dependable in anything other than he hasn't been injured as much. (however with the caveat that he has been concussed more which can end up taking a toll).

You make the leap from saying "YPC doesn't mean anything, but first downs do!" and that doesn't really make sense, because we can't put the first down percentage in context (how many plays were on 3rd down, etc...).

And part of dependability is knowing what you're going to get from a player. If you know you're getting 3 yards from player "A" every time, and player "B" gives you 0 yards half the time and 6 yards half the time, you're looking at two players who both get you 3 yards, but one's a lot more dependable than the other.

The numbers are the numbers. Woodhead's more dependable. Maybe it'll change moving forward.

 

[jsull87]

You make the leap from saying "YPC doesn't mean anything, but first downs do!" and that doesn't really make sense, because we can't put the first down percentage in context (how many plays were on 3rd down, etc...).

And part of dependability is knowing what you're going to get from a player. If you know you're getting 3 yards from player "A" every time, and player "B" gives you 0 yards half the time and 6 yards half the time, you're looking at two players who both get you 3 yards, but one's a lot more dependable than the other.

The numbers are the numbers. Woodhead's more dependable. Maybe it'll change moving forward.

Definitely a agree with the bolded. I also don't believe i am discounting YPC i am just saying when looking at dependability it wouldn't be what i focus on. I would focus on as i mentioned 3rd down targets, % of 3rd down conversions, for receiving completion % and for running YPC.

Re numbers being numbers and Woodhead being more dependable. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree in the end but i get where you are coming from.

 

[Archeryaddict12]

Boyce - as well as Edelman & Vereen - had an inexcusable 1st-quarter drop, and he really
should've caught that pass in the EZ anyway.
I feel that while he doesn't have the bust potential that Aaron Dropson still has, let's not
fit him for a bust yet, either.

Man you really hate Dobson. What did he do to you? Isn't it funny, KT and AD both had bad drops their first games which they were a main part of. If Boyce follows dobson's and kts production as they climbed each game, we could have some great wr's coming up. But Dobson definitely hasn't been a bust, he has actually been pretty darn good until his injury.

 

[woolster22]

This was a decent thread on Boyce's decent soaring last week. It has since turned into a Aaron Dropson, Vereen v Woody OT waste of space.

Gronk is done. It sucks. But it is what it is. Boyce looked better at WR than KR to me last game, and I think that's a good thing. He repeatedly was stopped short of the twenty on special teams. He had some good plays at receiver. Was that pick his fault? I don't think so (no 22 though), but it seemed pretty evident that it was a great defensive play (DEEP LB drop). The cut on the quick in (gif posted earlier) was awesome. That db looked like a soccer player going in for the slide/tackle/whatever you call it. He probably should have made the catch on the late PI call.

He is a rookie. He played fairly well for a rookie seeing his first true playing time on a team full of rookies at his position. Dobson and Tompkins both arguably played worse in their first games with legitimate playing time.

This team will prove to be stacked at WR in the years to come. Throw in Vereen...healthy gronk (maybe...I worry this latest blow may have lingering mental and physical effects), and hopefully an improved OL...me gusta.

Edit:
My memory fails me, as jmc and deuce have pointed out, Boyce only returned two kicks, one to the twenty eight.

 

[JMC00]

Boyce looked better at WR than KR to me last game, and I think that's a good thing. He repeatedly was stopped short of the twenty on special teams.

He only had 2 kickoff returns and the 2nd one he got to the 28 yard line. Which then the Pats went 3 plays and scored.

 

[woolster22]

Re: Re: on the positive, Josh Boyce looked good

He only had 2 kickoff returns and the 2nd one he got to the 28 yard line. Which then the Pats went 3 plays and scored.

Excuse my memory. Pregnant wife and working over time every week play with the memory.

However, I thought he got stopped right around the fifteen late? After Cameron's td? I remember thinking "wtf" on a late run out I could swear was him.

 

[supafly]

Excuse my memory. Pregnant wife and working over time every week play with the memory.

However, I thought he got stopped right around the fifteen late? After Cameron's td? I remember thinking "wtf" on a late run out I could swear was him.

I swear I saw the same thing.

 

[Deus Irae]

Excuse my memory. Pregnant wife and working over time every week play with the memory.

However, I thought he got stopped right around the fifteen late? After Cameron's td? I remember thinking "wtf" on a late run out I could swear was him.

I swear I saw the same thing.

The one you guys are thinking of may be the Slater muff which followed the Cameron TD late in the fourth.

 

[supafly]

The one you guys are thinking of may be the Slater muff which followed the Cameron TD late in the fourth.

You're right, it was Slater. Thank you.

Between chain smoking and pacing, I tend to block some things out.

 

[woolster22]

Re: Re: on the positive, Josh Boyce looked good

The one you guys are thinking of may be the Slater muff which followed the Cameron TD late in the fourth.

Assuming you guys are right (I didn't dvr this one...), wouldn't Boyce become the up man responsible for telling Slater to take a knee?

 

[supafly]

Assuming you guys are right (I didn't dvr this one...), wouldn't Boyce become the up man responsible for telling Slater to take a knee?

I'm not 100% woolster, but I don't think it was quite as deep of a kickoff on the final one where Slater bobbled it.

As a special teams demon and captain, Slater is normally pretty conservative when he's telling someone to take a knee, or returning from the EZ, so I'm thinking that it may have not even made it to the EZ on that particular kick. If it did, it wasn't very deep.

 

[woolster22]

Re: Re: on the positive, Josh Boyce looked good

I'm not 100% woolster, but I don't think it was quite as deep of a kickoff on the final one where Slater bobbled it.

As a special teams demon and captain, Slater is normally pretty conservative when he's telling someone to take a knee, or returning from the EZ, so I'm thinking that it may have not even made it to the EZ on that particular kick. If it did, it wasn't very deep.

Fair enough. I was pretty worked up with the gronk deal and then watching bb burn up time outs only to watch Cameron (or campell if your the jerk making a decent quarterly salary announcing one game as an emergency back up) go uncovered for six. As stated, going off of memory, and mine certainly is not perfect. Just looking for half a leg to stand on off my limited personal memory and initial post

 

[supafly]

Fair enough. I was pretty worked up with the gronk deal and then watching bb burn up time outs only to watch Cameron (or campell if your the jerk making a decent quarterly salary announcing one game as an emergency back up) go uncovered for six. As stated, going off of memory, and mine certainly is not perfect. Just looking for half a leg to stand on off my limited personal memory and initial post

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I was standing aside you in terms of thinking it was Boyce too, so you're not alone. Slater obviously doesn't return many kicks, but as soon as Deus said it was him I did remember it much clearer.

Like you, I was half-paying attention at that point. I must be honest.

Steering it back to Boyce, let's hope that he continues to progress. He obviously has the raw talent, speed, etc. If he's able to develop any chemistry with Brady and/or they can attempt to get him the ball in space, we may see positive results.

 

[RIpats88]

What's exciting too is the expected year 2 jump for dDobson, thompkins and Boyce as all those guys look like they belong in the NFL.

Brady could have a kings ransom of receiving targets next year with those guys, amendola, edelman, vereen, a drafted tight end and gronk returning at some point

Although I think Dobson will be the best of the bunch.