Justin Houston looks like a beaaast!

[Patriot Missile]

And herein lies the problem with the contemporary Patriots defense. The 3-4 teams you list (and I'll include GB) are unarguably better than the Pats D and have been for some time.

Now I love Houston but have no idea if he'll be a good/great pro. But it just seems a bit parochial of BB to continue to run a 3-4 defense that it is hard to find players to run well when your rivals are running a better version and having an easier time finding superior players to do it.

Or in other words: a scheme that does not have room for a Clay Matthews is a scheme that needs to evolve.

Clay Mathews would of fit here. Most of us, including myself didn't want any part of him. Looking back, I forget that although size and measureables are great, they are not everything. His motor and heart are off the scale. And that is something that is often overlooked by us armchair gms. We have living proof right on our team in Woodhead and Welker. If a players work ethic and desire is there, there is always a chance that players can overcome the odds.

We have a pretty good coaching staff that can work with some of these players deficiencies. Poor tackling can be a result of previous coaching or work habits that can be simply corrected by an adjustment in a players style or workout regimine. Same as run blockig etc.

Simply put. I'm not ruling out a player anymore based on his measurables. I want the whole picture. For all I know this Houston kid could be the next dominating Kearse.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Damn! Thats too bad to hear. I only saw him play once this year vs UCF in the bowl game he did nothing. He also doesn't look as big as Georgia lists him at. However, his tape on youtube looks good when it comes to getting after the QB. Probably a better fit for a Pitt, Balt, NYJ 3-4 Defense.

Ochmed Jones,

You seem like you are one of the most informed posters on here. Are there any 3-4 OLBs in this draft that fit BB's scheme? I can't find one guy that I like except Robert Quinn but hes going top 10 and even he has the question mark of pass coverage. Do you think BB passes on this position and just sticks with another year of Ninkovich and Cunningham hoping they develop in their 2nd yrs starting in this defense with TBC and Moore as the backup 3rd down specialists?

There are players in this draft that can play 3-4 OLB for us, but you have to keep in mind two things:

1.) BB will not reach for a projection selection and ALL the players being mentioned played DE in a 4-3. BB is not comfortable making that projection.

2.) BB values run defense and reading before reacting in the OLB position, so that by definition it excludes the need for "sudden" type guys that fly up the field with their hair on fire.

But if ever there was a year for BB to experiment outside his comfort zone in regards to the OLB position, this is the year, because he has two first round picks (and DOES NOT need a TE and) there are multiple DE/OLB players to chose from. All have warts, but there is quality and quantity in this draft.

 

[VJCPatriot]

According to this scouting report, Houston looks like more of a 4-3 DE. Once he polishes his pass rushing repertoire he could become an absolute terror. But the lack of height and inconsistent motor evaluations scare me.
Justin Houston, DE, Georgia Scouting Report Tom Melton's NFL Draft Blog

 

[MaineMan]

And herein lies the problem with the contemporary Patriots defense. The 3-4 teams you list (and I'll include GB) are unarguably better than the Pats D and have been for some time.

Now I love Houston but have no idea if he'll be a good/great pro. But it just seems a bit parochial of BB to continue to run a 3-4 defense that it is hard to find players to run well when your rivals are running a better version and having an easier time finding superior players to do it.

Or in other words: a scheme that does not have room for a Clay Matthews is a scheme that needs to evolve.

Not sure what you mean by "the contemporary Pats defense", how exactly you are defining that. If by "contemporary", you mean, "compared to the defense from a few years ago", the main difference seems to me to be the age of the players. We've recently gone from being the oldest defense in the league to pretty much the youngest. Meanwhile, the other defenses you've mentioned have been maturing into veteran units or, in the case of the Jets, building with veteran free agents.

IOW, I have a tough time saying that a different system staffed mainly with veterans is "better" than our system staffed with very young players. Doesn't seem like a fair comparison. Especially considering that this same system was among the most effective in the league - back when it was staffed by veterans.

 

[tombonneau]

Not sure what you mean by "the contemporary Pats defense", how exactly you are defining that. If by "contemporary", you mean, "compared to the defense from a few years ago", the main difference seems to me to be the age of the players. We've recently gone from being the oldest defense in the league to pretty much the youngest. Meanwhile, the other defenses you've mentioned have been maturing into veteran units or, in the case of the Jets, building with veteran free agents.

IOW, I have a tough time saying that a different system staffed mainly with veterans is "better" than our system staffed with very young players. Doesn't seem like a fair comparison. Especially considering that this same system was among the most effective in the league - back when it was staffed by veterans.

By contemporary I mean from roughly 2006-2007 on. Yes, before that they had great players and great defenses, but pretty much since 2004-2005 the D has not been a dominating unit (despite ranking highly in points against a handful of seasons).

My hypothesis is because BB has too strict physical & mental requirements for the front 7 it can make it difficult to draft or obtain the players you need to make it work (even his big FA signing AD who seemed to be born to be a LB in BB's D pretty much tanked).

And I wouldn't say those other defenses benefit from veteran players adapted who have already adapted to their system. Matthews, Raji, Woodley, those guys were ready to go out of the box.

Besides, outside of last year, the Pats D has been plenty stocked with veterans (some would say overstocked). The problem is they were guys like Pierre Woods, who has the frame but not the ability. I'd rather have a Woodley, with the ability, and adjust your target for what you think a LB frame should be.

 

[PatriotsInGA]

Ahh my Georgia Bulldog. Finally emerged this season and anchored the defense. The only problem would in fact be size. He is considerably smaller than any other LB we have.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Ahh my Georgia Bulldog. Finally emerged this season and anchored the defense. The only problem would in fact be size. He is considerably smaller than any other LB we have.

That is what makes the combine and pro days so valuable. The ability to get accurate heights and weights and a good indication of speed and quickness.

 

[MaineMan]

By contemporary I mean from roughly 2006-2007 on. Yes, before that they had great players and great defenses, but pretty much since 2004-2005 the D has not been a dominating unit (despite ranking highly in points against a handful of seasons).

My hypothesis is because BB has too strict physical & mental requirements for the front 7 it can make it difficult to draft or obtain the players you need to make it work (even his big FA signing AD who seemed to be born to be a LB in BB's D pretty much tanked).

And I wouldn't say those other defenses benefit from veteran players adapted who have already adapted to their system. Matthews, Raji, Woodley, those guys were ready to go out of the box.

Besides, outside of last year, the Pats D has been plenty stocked with veterans (some would say overstocked). The problem is they were guys like Pierre Woods, who has the frame but not the ability. I'd rather have a Woodley, with the ability, and adjust your target for what you think a LB frame should be.

BB's "system" has been in the top 5 wrt points allowed five times in the past decade and outside the top 8 only twice. Over the last five seasons:

2010 - 8th
2009 - 5th
2008 - 8th
2007 - 4th
2006 - 2nd

During the last three years, the defensive roster has undergone substantial turnover. Among front seven players, only three from the 2007 roster remained on the 2010 roster - Wilfork, Ty Warren and Mike Wright. Warren was on IR the entire season and Wright was out half the season. Roster turnover was equally substantial in the secondary over the same period.

Green Bay added two first rounders two years ago to a front seven core with an average seven years of experience. In 2007, the Steelers added Timmons and Woodley to a front seven core that now averages nearly 33 years old. The five guys who form the core of the Ravens' front seven has been together a minimum of five years with an average length of service of 8 years.

Length of service for Patriots front-seven players:

Ty Warren - 8 (injured)
Wilfork - 7
Wright - 6 (injured)
Ninkovich - 5 (2 in BB's system)
Mayo - 3
Guyton - 3
Brace - 2
Pryor - 2
Spikes - 1
Cunningham - 1
Deaderick - 1
Love - 1

G. Warren, Cohen and Moore, temporary injury replacements, do have more professional experience than many of those listed above.

 

[WesWelker83]

Let's say he weighs-in at 6024/255 and runs a 4.75 and is just adequate in run defense. We're basically spending the #28 on a Ninkovich clone simply because he "got after the passer" well in college.

Meh.

Great point. Hes also a one trick pony when it comes to pass rush. He just runs around the OT when he gets sacks. He doesnt have a repertiore of pass rush moves. He just has the speed rush. I don't think he will get away with that in NFL because his burst and closing speed aren't elite (Freeney level). He has a good burst and closing speed, not great. If he can't defend the run either cross him off the list.

I can't wait to see how tall he is, how much he weighs and how long his arms are. He looks like a Saints/Colts 4-3 DE to me. He also has motor questions and a substance abuse issue. Too many red flags.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Damn! Thats too bad to hear. I only saw him play once this year vs UCF in the bowl game he did nothing. He also doesn't look as big as Georgia lists him at. However, his tape on youtube looks good when it comes to getting after the QB. Probably a better fit for a Pitt, Balt, NYJ 3-4 Defense.

Ochmed Jones,

You seem like you are one of the most informed posters on here. Are there any 3-4 OLBs in this draft that fit BB's scheme? I can't find one guy that I like except Robert Quinn but hes going top 10 and even he has the question mark of pass coverage. Do you think BB passes on this position and just sticks with another year of Ninkovich and Cunningham hoping they develop in their 2nd yrs starting in this defense with TBC and Moore as the backup 3rd down specialists?

None exist on this planet or any other.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

None exist on this planet or any other.

I disagree. Plenty exist in every draft.

The problem is BB won't draft them and BB's staff does a terrible job coaching up the ones that he does draft.

And while I understand that rookies make mistakes and that has a lot to do with BB's reluctance to play them, I can not see why BB is not drafting them and spending a year or two to develop them.

If we had a player or two in the pipeline while Willie and Vrabel were wearing down, maybe we would not be in the situation of having the worst OLB"s in the league.

And I find it backside backwards that BB has literally poured an entire draft of picks into rebuilding the secondary over the past several drafts and all is what OLB got was Crable and Cunningham.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I disagree. Plenty exist in every draft.

The problem is BB won't draft them and BB's staff does a terrible job coaching up the ones that he does draft.

And while I understand that rookies make mistakes and that has a lot to do with BB's reluctance to play them, I can not see why BB is not drafting them and spending a year or two to develop them.

If we had a player or two in the pipeline while Willie and Vrabel were wearing down, maybe we would not be in the situation of having the worst OLB"s in the league.

And I find it backside backwards that BB has literally poured an entire draft of picks into rebuilding the secondary over the past several drafts and all is what OLB got was Crable and Cunningham.

I mean none exist in BB's eyes and I agree with what you're saying. I can't believe someone who coached Lawrence Taylor would be so indifferent about acquiring OLB's. Ninkovich and TBC have had their occasional rare moments but they should be 4th and 5th on the depth chart for OLBs not in the top 3.

 

[VJCPatriot]

And I find it backside backwards that BB has literally poured an entire draft of picks into rebuilding the secondary over the past several drafts and all is what OLB got was Crable and Cunningham.

Well I think that in the 3-4 defensive front, the FRONT 3 down linemen are the real keys to the defense in BB's eyes. He has consistently invested 1st round picks in 3-4 defensive linemen. He has gone for linebackers in free agency instead. As long as your front 3 are hard to handle, the linebackers in the 3-4 can be merely mediocre to above average and still be good enough.

Let's look at history:
Seymour 1st round (2001)
Warren 1st round (2003)
Wilfork 1st round (2004)

It's not really a coincidence that the Pats won several championships with those pieces on their DL. Bruschi (rd 3 96), Vrabel (FA), McGinest (rd 1 94) were either signed as free agents or were leftover from the previous regime. And notice that McGinest DID fit BB's very strict OLB criteria, standing at 6'5 and weighing 270 lbs.

This messageboard's posters may have a love affair with the sexy OLBs, but clearly BB does not unless those OLBs are also freaks of nature that fit his criteria. In the meantime I'll bet on BB going back to his reliable self, picking a stud DE in the draft and just watch the entire defense improve as a result.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Well I think that in the 3-4 defensive front, the FRONT 3 down linemen are the real keys to the defense in BB's eyes. He has consistently invested 1st round picks in 3-4 defensive linemen. He has gone for linebackers in free agency instead. As long as your front 3 are hard to handle, the linebackers in the 3-4 can be merely mediocre to above average and still be good enough.

Let's look at history:
Seymour 1st round (2001)
Warren 1st round (2003)
Wilfork 1st round (2004)

It's not really a coincidence that the Pats won several championships with those pieces on their DL. Bruschi (rd 3 96), Vrabel (FA), McGinest (rd 1 94) were either signed as free agents or were leftover from the previous regime. And notice that McGinest DID fit BB's very strict OLB criteria, standing at 6'5 and weighing 270 lbs.

This messageboard's posters may have a love affair with the sexy OLBs, but clearly BB does not unless those OLBs are also freaks of nature that fit his criteria. In the meantime I'll bet on BB going back to his reliable self, picking a stud DE in the draft and just watch the entire defense improve as a result.

An argument could just as easily be made that they haven't won lately because of their mediocre linebackers. They had championships teams with Bruschi, McGinest, Phifer, Johnson, Vrabel, Cox and Colvin at linebacker and with Bobby Hamilton and Anthony Pleasant, Keith Traylor and Ted Washington as lineman.

Vrabel, McGinest, Bruschi, Phifer and Johnson were on all three SB winning teams. Seymour is the only lineman who was on all three.

 

[Seneschal2]

But if ever there was a year for BB to experiment outside his comfort zone in regards to the OLB position, this is the year, because he has two first round picks (and DOES NOT need a TE and) there are multiple DE/OLB players to chose from. All have warts, but there is quality and quantity in this draft.

All do have warts, making it very difficult to choose one who fits best. As much as I'd like to see the best pure pass rusher chosen, me thinks BB will still select someone who's solid vs the run first, because "pass rush techniques can be taught" -- as BB once said.

While we're all waiting for BB to address the DE/OLB position, he may end up doubling up on the DE position, as a way of improving both the run and pass defense. I'd agree with that effort this draft, as long as DE/OLB isn't neglected.