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I'm here to shame the Pats Hall of Fame

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RayClay, Aug 28, 2007.

  1. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    This is the site of the NFL Hall of Fame. You know, the one in Canton Ohio?

    http://www.profootballhof.com/history/decades/1960s/afl.jsp

    They have The AFL listed on a Pro Football History page and the official all time AFL team was selected.

    There are two (2) starters at tackle.

    One of them is Houston Antwine of the Boston Patriots.

    He is in the AFL Hall of Fame and, apparently in the NFL Hall of Fame on the one page where they recognize that league.

    So he must be in every Hall of Fame he qualifies for, right?

    Not the Patriots Hall of Fame!! There's something wrong here, let's straighten it out.

    If we raise awareness before next year's nominations, perhaps he and deserving members like 7 time Pro Bowler Jon Morris will get their due before they are completely forgotten in the avalanche of Belichick era inductees.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2007
  2. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    Good detective work, RC.

    There is no way that Houston Antwine should not be a nominee for next year's NEP HOF. I was too young to remember watching him play, but my dad told me years later that those 1961-66 teams were very good.
  3. Pats Fanatic

    Pats Fanatic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great post, RayClay I agree. I think that there should be at least two or three inductees per year for awhile instead of the one per year now. There are too many great players from the 60's, 70's and 80's that will be excluded when the 90's and SB years start flowing in.
  4. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Thanks for the bump, Captain. The much maligned Billy Sullivan, along with a great coach and sometime GM Holovak put together a hell of a team on a shoestring.

    Parilli was a fine Quarterback who had a long NFL career. Cappelleti, RBs Garron and Nance and NFL Hall of famer Buoniconti were also fine players.

    It was the era of the great 4 man lines with nicknames like "Fearsome Foursome" (Rams) and "Purple People Eaters" Vikings.

    The Pats line of Bob Dee, Larry Eisenhauer, Jim Lee Hunt and Antwine was a great one by AFL standards (as good as the NFL in some respects, not in others, it was hard to tell. Certainly the most talented spin off league in my memory.

    All 4 had multiple pro bowls. 2 of that line are in the Pats HOF. All 4 could be. The best one has to be in my opinion.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2007
  5. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Spread the word, brother. Jon Morris with 7 Pro Bowls.

    And the AFL was no novelty league like XFL.

    It was good quality football, with an emphasis on wide open passing, while the NFL had grown boring trying to imitate the Packers.

    Not consistently as good as the NFL, but quite competitive as it showed when the caught up and became competitive in a short amount of time.
  6. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Great post, Ray. Sign me up!
  7. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

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    Amen. The precedence for enshrinement into the Pats HOF should be
    1. Antwine
    2. Morris
    3. Coates
  8. italian pat patriot

    italian pat patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    well done Ray Clay
  9. ClevTrev

    ClevTrev Rookie

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    He's very deserving. Good work!
  10. Pats Fanatic

    Pats Fanatic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Don't forget Also:
    Julius Adams
    Sam Adams
    Tom Addison
    Raymond Clayborn
    Sam Cunningham
    Tim Fox
    Russ Francis
    Andy Johnson
    Bill Lenkaitis
    Tom Neville
    Darryl Stingley
    Mosi Tatupu
    Leon Gray
    Hart Lee Dykes(just kidding)

    Here is the list of the Patriots HOF:
    Bruce Armstrong
    Nick Buoniconti
    Gino Cappelletti
    Bob Dee
    Steve Grogan
    John Hannah
    Michael Haynes
    Jim Lee Hunt
    Steve Nelson
    Vito "Babe" Parilli
    Andre Tippett
    Stanley Morgan
  11. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Ben deserves it, no doubt. But there was a certain cornerback that was a rock on defense for years. His name's on the tip of my tongue....
  12. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Great list to work off of Pats fanatic. No love for Hart Lee?:rofl:

    I'd probably go Julius Adams and Clayborn. Everybody can't make it.

    A lot of real good players though , and you could throw Sam Hunt in with that group. He didn't play nearly long enough with the Pats, but i see in my googling he, Nelson, Buoniconti and Tippet were voted the LBs on the 35th anniversary team, so it wasn't just me.

    Think an early version of A.D. BIG and fast:woohoo: :woohoo:
  13. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Hey Italian Pat. sorry I don't have the time to do much story research, but I'm going to push this until next year, so I hope you're with me.

    I'm actually kind of touched by all the responses here.:( *sniff*
  14. Brady to Brown

    Brady to Brown Rookie

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    He is still playing.
  15. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Really?

    I bet even at age 52, he wouldn't let you catch a pass in the 4th quarter, no matter what the score was.:D
  16. italian pat patriot

    italian pat patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    do you have some doubts ?
  17. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Of course not. I'm emailing all the writers if i don't see some articles on this.

    Seems like a legitimate issue to me. I'll keep you informed.
  18. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry... but you should be ashamed as much as the Patriots. You are spreading misinformation.

    The linked to page has the following:

    See any # showing he's in the NFL Hall of Fame? No.

    Now the site's listing of HOFers alphabetically.
    Houston Antwine is not in any professional Hall of Fame.

    (As far as I can tell there is no such thing as an official AFL HOF, just the all-time team listed on that page. And it's not clear who and how that team was chosen and how official it is.)

    I am not saying he should not be, that was just before my time so I can't remember seeing him personally. He should probably be in the Pats HOF. But shaming the Patriots with misleading posts like yours is wrong and, more importantly, counterproductive to your cause.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2007
  19. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Of course he's not in the NFL hall of fame. The NFL Hall of fame website acknowledges the entirety of the AFL in one page. As part of that one page they list the all time AFL team which was voted on.

    I don't think anyone else thought I was saying he was in the NFL Hall of Fame.

    In case anyone else so misconstrued my meaning, I don't think Antwine belongs as a member of the NFL hall of fame, not even close. NFL defensive linemen were much better in those days and I mentioned 2 famous lines full of Hall of Famers on Dallas and Minnesota.

    You realize the Patriots hall of fame has existed only in cyberspace, no?

    http://www.conigliofamily.com/AFLHallofFame.htm

    AMERICAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE
    HALL OF FAME

    Amherst, New York ~ Open 365 or 366 days a year

    ttp://www.conigliofamily.com/images/1964Topps2Antwine.jpg

    Nothing misleading Alamo. you just need to read the post

    This is the site of the NFL Hall of Fame. You know, the one in Canton Ohio? (it is the official website of the NFL hall of fame)

    http://www.profootballhof.com/histor.../1960s/afl.jsp

    They have The AFL listed on a Pro Football History page and the official all time AFL team was selected.

    (I have a link to that page. This is the entire acknowledgement of that whole league. Records and an all time team.)

    There are two (2) starters at tackle.

    Out of thousands who played in that league.

    Seems pretty clear to me.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2007
  20. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    in the NFL Hall of Fame on the one page where they recognize that league.

    I can't read the stuff for you.

    If i write very specifically and you think that says he was inducted into the NFL Hall of fame, I can't help you.
  21. PromisedLand

    PromisedLand Virtual Internet Person

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    No Jim Nance on that list? 2x AFL rushing leader?
  22. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    oops, not my list.

    Nance was awesome for two years, as dominating as any running back this side of Jim Brown.

    Unfortunately he had some minor leg injuries and major gluttony problem so his career was very limited.

    Certainly needs to be mentioned as one of the best.
  23. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The phrase "He is in the AFL Hall of Fame and, apparently in the NFL Hall of Fame on the one page where they recognize that league" is misleading and hardly specific.

    First of all, a real "AFL Hall of Fame" does not exist. If it exists at all it's just some guy's website somewhere. The list he is on that you linked to is titled "All-Time AFL Team". So much for "very specific" writing.

    Secondly, you go on to say "So he must be in every Hall of Fame he qualifies for, right?" which again implies he is actually in the NFL Hall of Fame, right? But the truth is he is in no Hall of Fame at all. Being mentioned in an AFL webpage on the history of the NFL on the HOF website does not qualify as "being in the Hall of Fame".

    If you had simply pointed out his All-Time AFL team status rather than implying the Patriots were the only eligible HOF to exclude him, you would have had a strong argument. Instead you tried to make it seem stronger by misleading people... I bet more than half the people who read this believed Antwine was in the Pro Football HOF or in some AFL HOF. He's not.

    If you use the same claims in your future campaign to get him into the Pats HOF you will end up doing Antwine a disservice, because people will simply laugh at you when they realize the truth. People dislike being mislead.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2007
  24. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Have you visited the Patriots Hall of Fame?

    I re stated the sentences leading up to that to show that no one who actually read it would jump to the conclusions you did. You decided you were going to be outraged so good for you.

    By the way, The Patriots Hall of fame has apparently existed since 1991 but i can't find the building, have you been there? What's the address? It's been there for 26 years.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2007
  25. Pats Fanatic

    Pats Fanatic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your right and should be on the list. He was a great one one of my father's favorite players.
  26. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You are deluding yourself. And digging the hole deeper and deeper.

    No, it hasn't had a permanent building... you expected Victor Kiam to spend money to build it? But it certainly exists, as an ongoing and public enterprise, publicized and organized by the Patriots. It has been announced that a HOF building will finally be built next to Gillette, opening next year. To try to claim that the fact that you can't yet visit a brick and mortar Patriots Hall of Fame somehow legitimizes some mythical AFL HOF webpage somewhere is ludicrous.
  27. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    But the AFL doesn't exist. It was folded into the NFL. So how could it have an "official" Hall of Fame.

    Of course the AFL is acknowledged on the Official Site of The Pro Football Hall of Fame. How could a defunct league be acknowledged in a more "official" way than that?

    So on the one page of the OS of the PFHOF recognizing the league that contributed a high percentage of current NFL teams, they mention one all time AFL team.

    Is there anything less than official up to this point?
  28. alamo

    alamo praedica numerum! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Exactly. There is no such thing. Which is why I took issue with your claim that Antwine actually was a member of this nonexistent AFL Hall of Fame.
  29. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Two guys that really bother me, Darryl Stingley, self explanatory and Julius Adams.. the latter was a guy who toiled in the trenches for about 13 years, made all pro during the lean pats times.
  30. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    But you admit the Patriots Hall of fame has not had a building or any tangible evidence of existence other than a list of names.

    Th AFL Hall of Fame has an archive of photos and memorabilia, making it more tangibly real than the Patriots hall of fame.

    "Archives of the AFL Hall of Fame do physically exist, and AFL fans may request copies of photos, articles, etc. by e-mailing."

    http://www.conigliofamily.com/AFLHallofFame.htm

    Since the official site of the Pro Football Hall of Fame recognizes Antwine as the greatest in AFL history at his position (of two tackles), why do you doubt he is in their Hall of Fame?

    If you don't think Pro Football gives him this recognition, just look up his name
    on their official site. (use quotes) This is what you get.

    {History: The AFL - Pro Football Hall of Fame

    ... Defense End – Jerry Mays, Texans/Chiefs; Gerry Philbin, Jets Tackle – Houston Antwine, Patriots; Tom Sestak, Bills Outside Linebacker – Bobby Bell#, Chiefs; George ...}

    http://www.profootballhof.com/history/decades/1960s/afl.jsp

    I cannot invent leagues and organizations to satisfy your nitpicking, I can only document the ones that actually exist today.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2007

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