Idle thoughts

[captain stone]

I don't know the answer, but I agree that the complexity can be counter-productive at times.

Adalius Thomas spoke openly in 2007 about how complex the Pats' defense was and how hard it was for him to get comfortable when he moved over from Baltimore. Yet I haven't seen us move him around the way Baltimore did to take advantage of his versatility, and he certainly hasn't had the kind of impact with us that he had with the Ravens.

I can understand occasional busts with kids like Chad Jackson who have lots of physical skill but can't learn the playbook (though you think we'd screen for that if our system is so complex to begin with). But it seems like our schemes are prohibitively complicated at times, with a huge learning curve. I guess I'm not sure why that has to be so, or what is the benefit of all this complexity.

Very, very tasty food for thought. I wish that Bill would take a bite of this, or at least smell what's cooking.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I agree with the point you're making (that you have to be consistent in your standards), but from what I've seen, Brady hasn't been hit very much since the Jets game. Clearly, there were major issues in the first two games, but Atlanta and Baltimore are no slouches, and the OL generally held up very well against them both. Seems like some major issues were identified and fixed after the Jets game.

Hopefully that is part of it but the Falcons didn't have much of a pass rush beyond Abraham and they don't blitz. The Ravens post Ryan blitz some but are not as exotic and didn't get consistent pressure up the middle. As Rodney pointed out on NBC, the key to implimenting the blueprint is consistent pressure up the middle in addition to some well disguised blitzes. Take away Brady's ability to step up in the pocket by collapsing it.

Bill has always been able to adjust the scheme to account for specific speed and edge rushers. Unfortunately that usually limits the route running opportunities for the TE's. And elite rushers will still have some success depending on the day the tackles are having. Light was having some technique issues early on which also results in tipped and batted balls and began to force early and high throws. I think being undersized technique is critical for this OL and they have started out rough the last couple of seasons before rounding into form. Sadly they lost all form in 42 and were basically run over.

 

[captain stone]

That's fair- Brady certainly saw his share of pressure, and was sacked a few times. That said, Baltimore's an excellent pass-rushing team. I'll take that level of pressure, going against them, any day of the week. Very few OLs can keep their QBs totally in the clear against an elite pass rush- I thought that it was a pretty good job by the OL just to keep Brady as clean as it did.

So how do you compare Baltimore's pass-rush with Denver's, and our chances of repelling it with our results from last week?

 

[shakadave]

[/quote] I think the fact that is missing from the Suggs roughing call that hasn't been mentioned ENOUGH, is the fact that he was CLEARLY going for Brady's knees. The fact that Brady managed to get out of the way, and minimized the contact SHOULDN'T mitigate Suggs clear INTENT to injure the QB.

I think WAY TOO MUCH was made about the use of the word "forcibly" in the rule. Clearly they didn't want to throw the flag ONLY when the QB is writhing on the ground.

So while I would like to see more discretion on incidental contact to the head...and fewer flags; if ANY defensive player goes low on a QB a flag should be thrown whether he was successful or not.
[/quote]

I could not agree more. Who the heck cares whether Thuggs hit Brady "forcibly"? Maybe the rule they used to penalize him wasn't the rule that was broken, but there ought to be a rule against deliberately diving at a QB's knees. I would be OK with no penalty on that play if they threw in a 1-game suspension for Thuggs along with a $50,000 fine.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Very, very tasty food for thought. I wish that Bill would take a bite of this, or at least smell what's cooking.

The benefit to complexity is we don't have to win the raw talent matchups if we can out think you. And oddly the skillset Bill required is often overlooked and undervalued. Welker and Branch were prime examples. Moss isn't because he has the tools to match the brains. And it's not even brains to be fair. Guys like Eugene Wilson, Ben Watson and even Chad Jackson were smart enough. It's just they weren't quick enough. Felger before he morphed into a moron used to say that some guys can't play well if they have to think. Watch Welker, he doesn't. Neither did Bingo. They see it, recognize it and all it's variables and know what to do about it in a split second which is all you have at NFL game speed.

Chad Jackson could reportedly diagnose defenses and diagram plays all day long on a blackboard. Just took him several seconds to work it all out. I'm sure it's the post snap adjustments that are wreaking havoc with Galloway. As a result he's pressing and then you start dropping the gimmes. Was the story of Ben Watson's career until recently (we hope). Eugene Wilson looked like a pro bowler in the making until the guy who did his thinking for him went down and they asked Gino to not only think for himself but for an entire backfield. He couldn't make a play thereafter. Meriweather looks like he's not thinking this season. Just reacting. Mayo can think for an entire unit and still react on instinct.

Guys are out there, it's just not a slam dunk you identify that level of capacity coming out of the college game consistently. Particularly on offense. Edleman looks promising considering his background and getting thrown in off the deep end. Welker was a receiver in college and had three seasons in the league before he landed here. Not always a given you even identify it successfully in seasoned pros. Until you test drive 'em you just never know. Galloway's skillset may presently be misused, but if he can't perform in the system it's more likely he's just misfit. Even Moss has to run less ideal routes than his skillset would seem to demand, because if his QB is on his ass before he can get a deep throw off he ain't getting the ball.

You can fiddle with scheme to suit the roster. But you don't abandon the system for any reason. It works more consistently than anyone else's, just ask Matt Cassel.

 

[shmessy]

3. I'm tired of seeing Matt Light get raked over the coals by fans and the media. How quickly they forget how he STONED John Abrahams for the entire game. Did we all forget that they pay the OTHER guys big money to do their jobs. Sure he got by him for a sack. He probably got by him for a couple of pressures too. But we dropped back over 30 times...and gave up 3 sacks to one of the best pass rushing teams in the league (BTW - on at least ONE of those sacks, Brady was late getting the ball out)

BOTTOM LINE: The pats have dropped back to pass 175 times this season, and Brady has been sacked ONLY 4 (FOUR) times vs 3 teams that have excellent pass rushes. And this is with Brady, not yet being Brady.....AND the WR problems

Light is a good but not great LT, we all KNOW that. Then why is it what if Brady gets touched, we all seem to go nuts and start researching who is available to play on the OL. Its not only unfair, its basically WRONG.

I happen to be one of those who complains about Light.

Because I value your viewpoint so much, I will re-evaluate. I can't guarantee that there won't be 2-3 times tomorrow where I don't yell "G-damn that Light!!!", but I promise to try to look at it in a different, err...ummmm.... way.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So how do you compare Baltimore's pass-rush with Denver's, and our chances of repelling it with our results from last week?

I'm hoping for snow. Dumervil is absolutely tiny- if the conditions aren't good for him to explode off the line, then he'll get manhandled, and Ayers is the only other pass rusher that even warrants consideration for doubling. If conditions are better, then I'd like to see some tight end help on him. Either way, I see Brady being protected a little better than he was against the Ravens.

 

[captain stone]

The benefit to complexity is we don't have to win the raw talent matchups if we can out think you. And oddly the skillset Bill required is often overlooked and undervalued. Welker and Branch were prime examples. Moss isn't because he has the tools to match the brains. And it's not even brains to be fair. Guys like Eugene Wilson, Ben Watson and even Chad Jackson were smart enough. It's just they weren't quick enough. Felger before he morphed into a moron used to say that some guys can't play well if they have to think. Watch Welker, he doesn't. Neither did Bingo. They see it, recognize it and all it's variables and know what to do about it in a split second which is all you have at NFL game speed.

Chad Jackson could reportedly diagnose defenses and diagram plays all day long on a blackboard. Just took him several seconds to work it all out. I'm sure it's the post snap adjustments that are wreaking havoc with Galloway. As a result he's pressing and then you start dropping the gimmes. Was the story of Ben Watson's career until recently (we hope). Eugene Wilson looked like a pro bowler in the making until the guy who did his thinking for him went down and they asked Gino to not only think for himself but for an entire backfield. He couldn't make a play thereafter. Meriweather looks like he's not thinking this season. Just reacting. Mayo can think for an entire unit and still react on instinct.

Guys are out there, it's just not a slam dunk you identify that level of capacity coming out of the college game consistently. Particularly on offense. Edleman looks promising considering his background and getting thrown in off the deep end. Welker was a receiver in college and had three seasons in the league before he landed here. Not always a given you even identify it successfully in seasoned pros. Until you test drive 'em you just never know. Galloway's skillset may presently be misused, but if he can't perform in the system it's more likely he's just misfit. Even Moss has to run less ideal routes than his skillset would seem to demand, because if his QB is on his ass before he can get a deep throw off he ain't getting the ball.

You can fiddle with scheme to suit the roster. But you don't abandon the system for any reason. It works more consistently than anyone else's, just ask Matt Cassel.

I smell what you're cooking, Mo, and as a proponent of If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix It, I see little reason to ditch Bill's philosophy of offense - or defense - just because a few parts are harder to acquire. Still, I wish that something else could be done to produce a more consistent flow of talent into the WR position. We struck gold in 2002 with Branch & Givens, but then came up empty until Moss & Welker in '07. Because of that dry spell, we were left to cobble together a group in '06 that included Bam Childress and, gulp, Kelvin Kight. I'd feel more comfortable knowing that we had a yute on the 53 ready to step into the #3 role, should Galloway (who's likely to be one & done here, anyway) continue to struggle.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Very, very tasty food for thought. I wish that Bill would take a bite of this, or at least smell what's cooking.

Only 1 in 100,235,729,032,003. LB's in the draft is smart enough and has the right tools to be a Patriots LB. Maybe they should make things a little less complicated.

 

[captain stone]

I'm hoping for snow. Dumervil is absolutely tiny- if the conditions aren't good for him to explode off the line, then he'll get manhandled, and Ayers is the only other pass rusher that even warrants consideration for doubling. If conditions are better, then I'd like to see some tight end help on him. Either way, I see Brady being protected a little better than he was against the Ravens.

IDK how I'm supposed to feel about the possibility of snow. On one hand, Dumervil would not have the traction underneath him to explode off the snap, as you mentioned. So the Donkeys' pass-rush would not be quite as challenging. On the other, our running game isn't exactly in post-Thanksgiving form yet, and our WRs might not be ready to acclimate quickly enough from autumn in New England to winter in the Rockies.

 

[mayoclinic]

Galloway brings a skill set that nobody else on the team can provide...he occupies a safety opposite Moss. With both WR requiring help over the top, that spreads the defense pretty thin. With the Pats gameplan against the Ravens not looking much for the deep ball (with the blitzing and Reed, good call), it became a little easier to sit Galloway. Going forward, Galloway needs to make sure his struggles don't overwhelm the benefits of his speed.

I agree that Galloway brings a unique and potentially valuable skill set. I wanted to see him against Baltimore as I felt he could help spread the defense (I understand the blitzing and Reed issues, but their CBs were vulnerable and we never really tested them deep), and was disappointed to see him a healthy scratch. Hopefully he sees action against Denver. If Bailey shadows Moss and the Broncos try to contain Welker with the nickel and combo packages there will be a big opportunity elsewhere. I hope we take advantage of it with Galloway and Watson deep, and using Maroney in the passing game as well. Those 3 guys have a lot of potential big play capability.

 

[BradyFTW!]

IDK how I'm supposed to feel about the possibility of snow. On one hand, Dumervil would not have the traction underneath him to explode off the snap, as you mentioned. So the Donkeys' pass-rush would not be quite as challenging. On the other, our running game isn't exactly in post-Thanksgiving form yet, and our WRs might not be ready to acclimate quickly enough from autumn in New England to winter in the Rockies.

They have a 248 pounder whose responsibility is setting the edge against the run. I feel pretty comfortable in stating that the Pats can establish the run against the Broncos if they commit to it. Frankly, I think we should run right at Dumervil until they adjust- put them on their heels, and make them adapt to us. And yes, I think that Maroney and Morris are up to the task.

The short passing game also tends to work pretty well in bad weather- I'm confident that the quick routes and screens would still be very effective.

 

[mayoclinic]

They have a 248 pounder whose responsibility is setting the edge against the run. I feel pretty comfortable in stating that the Pats can establish the run against the Broncos if they commit to it. Frankly, I think we should run right at Dumervil until they adjust- put them on their heels, and make them adapt to us. And yes, I think that Maroney and Morris are up to the task.

The short passing game also tends to work pretty well in bad weather- I'm confident that the quick routes and screens would still be very effective.

We scored 47 points the last time we played in bad weather. And I love the idea of running the ball right at Dumervil, snow or no.

 

[patfanken]

I happen to be one of those who complains about Light.

Because I value your viewpoint so much, I will re-evaluate. I can't guarantee that there won't be 2-3 times tomorrow where I don't yell "G-damn that Light!!!", but I promise to try to look at it in a different, err...ummmm.... way.

No doubt that you will, so will I.....at THAT moment. But the thing we forget to do is give the OL some "atta boys" the MANY more times when he has the time to throw. To bring in a baseball analogy, players can be a superstar even though they FAIL 70% of the time. The same goes for pass rushers. They can be superstars even though THEY fail 95% of the time. . Go figure

 

[patfanken]

I smell what you're cooking, Mo, and as a proponent of If It Ain't Broke Don't Fix It, I see little reason to ditch Bill's philosophy of offense - or defense - just because a few parts are harder to acquire. Still, I wish that something else could be done to produce a more consistent flow of talent into the WR position. We struck gold in 2002 with Branch & Givens, but then came up empty until Moss & Welker in '07. Because of that dry spell, we were left to cobble together a group in '06 that included Bam Childress and, gulp, Kelvin Kight. I'd feel more comfortable knowing that we had a yute on the 53 ready to step into the #3 role, should Galloway (who's likely to be one & done here, anyway) continue to struggle.

It could be that they are hoping that the "yute" is Brandon Tate

 

[shmessy]

We scored 47 points the last time we played in bad weather. And I love the idea of running the ball right at Dumervil, snow or no.

The last game of the 2008 season?

I thought it was 13-0 Patriots over the Bills.