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I hope Mcdaniels sticks with the Run against the Texans

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RIpats88, Dec 5, 2012.

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  1. RIpats88

    RIpats88 Rookie

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    it seems sometimes that when the pats face a team with a good "run" defense like last week against Miami McDaniels gameplan is to have Brady line up in shotgun 50times and chuck it....but thats playing right into the opposing teams hands

    but last week you saw, that became very predictable and Miami was able to limit brady because they KNEW he was going to pass on all downs.

    it wasnt until the pats started to RUN the ball down miami's throats and establish it that they regained their offensive identity. Good running teams, RUN no matter how good the defense of the opposing team is...

    I hope McDaniels learned from last week and we continue to Run...that way Brady can do play action and come up with some big plays
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  2. Brady_to_Moss

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    if it is going to be rainy and windy..must run
  3. mayoclinic

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  4. Rob0729

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    This whole predictable argument is bunk. Even if the Pats threw 100% of the time, it doesn't mean the offense is predictable. There are a vast array of things you can do just throwing the ball.

    I will still argue execution was more of a problem than play calling. It wasn't McDaniels' best day calling plays, but Welker dropped an easy TD pass, Hernandez dropped a ball that would have been at worst a 30 yard gain (possibly another TD), and Brady missed several open receivers during the game. Hernandez fell on the first and goal on the two on the playaction designed to throw to him. There were a lot of stupid penalties with the makeshift o-line and Fells subbing for Gronk.

    In fact, the most predictable drive of the game was the final drive where the Pats lined up and ran the ball mostly up the middle.

    To the point I mentioned with the makeshift o-line and absence of Gronk, that probably played a huge role in McDaniels decision not to run the ball as much early. They were missing Mankins and Connolly and Vollmer clearly was not anywhere near 100%. As Bedard pointed out today, Fells struggled to replace Gronk blocking on the edge limiting Ridley from running outside which is where he has done a lot of damage this year. It could have been personnel specific and not the Dolphins at all. Looks like there is a chance for Mankins and Connolly will be back and hopefully Vollmer will be closer to 100%.

    But I think the Texans' defense has struggled vs. the pass in recent weeks. If Jonathan Joseph is still out, I think the Pats have to pass against the Texans. As someone posted on a Texans' board, the Texans made Chad Henne look like Tom Brady a few weeks ago (354 yards, 4 TDs, 0INTs). Imagine what the real Tom Brady can do.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  5. Rob0729

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    Rain can help the pass more than the run. Harder to cover receivers in the rain. The wind rarely affects Brady's passing and really only affects deeper passes or QBs who lob the ball.

    Unless it is a torrential down pour or the win is blowing so hard that it is raining sideways, the wind and rain will have little factor in the Pats' game plan. Brady has had some of his best passing games in wind, rain, and snow. I remember him smoking the Bears' defense in a blizzard two years ago.
  6. Patstopia

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    With Houston 19th against the pass and 2nd against the run, I would assume that taking the ball out of Brady's hands would not be to our advantage! That being said, with Bolden back, a nice 55/45 would be nice once we get up by a few
  7. BananaRepublican

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  8. Rob0729

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    Bolden may not be activated by Monday. The Pats have thus far executed their one week roster exemption for him. They could activate him later in the week though.

    I do agree that it would be stupid to not exploit the Texans weakness because people want balance or unpredictability.
  9. Rob0729

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    Thanks for backing up my point. :D
  10. Brady_to_Moss

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    i remember watching that game on TV...amazing game...wish snow on sunday!
  11. kiwitexansfan

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    Those stats may reflect the Texans play with a lead a lot. I would say that we are about even in terms of our ability to play the pass and run.

    Without Cushing and Cody for long spells our interior run defense has been pretty average.

    Don't trust the stats.
  12. Simple Jack's Brother

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    Took the words right out of my mouth. Kinda similar to how the Pats pass D is constantly getting ripped for big yards. Yes i don't think they have a fantastic secondary, but when ur hanging 36 points on an opponent each week, they're gonna try and play catch up, and the D is typically gonna keep it conservative to not allow the big play, but rather smaller chunks.
  13. mayoclinic

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    I want balance, not no passing. Like the 2008 Arizona game - 183 yards rushing on 42 attempts, 331 yards passing on 38 attempts. 47-7.

    By all means attack the Texans' secondary. But don't abandon the run, don't abandon play action, and don't just go to the spread.
  14. Deus Irae

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    Miami limited Brady because receivers were dropping passes, Hernandez was still limited while playing the whole game, and Brady missed a couple of bunny throws. Miami also limited Brady because the running game couldn't do squat early in the game.

    First half runs:

    2 - TD
    5
    1
    2
    -2
    1
    2

    So, other than the first run, which was the finishing touch on a drive on a short field TD brought about by a Miami turnover, the running game was a problem in the first half, not a solution.

    Third quarter runs:

    7
    2
    3
    5
    4
    2
    1
    4
    13
    3
    2

    So, we see a few runs getting better but, still, 6 of 11 rushes were for 3 yards or less, and 8 of 11 were for 4 yards or less. The running game really only worked for one drive in the 4th quarter. People like to talk about balance, but balance only works if the runs aren't putting even more pressure on the passing game by failing. Even the best QBs in the league tend to struggle if they're constantly behind the down/distance ratios.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  15. PATSYLICIOUS

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    Let's hope so, even if we don't have success you still have to keep the D honest. I still want to see a good amount of passing, maybe like a 60-40 split. If we completely abandon the run like in the Seattle game or the Miami game up until the last couple series', we're in trouble.
  16. VrabelJr

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    So you want us to run against the #2 rush defense in the NFL? Sounds like the formula for losing. We absolutely have to go pass heavy against the Texans.
  17. JMarr

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    Really? Seeing Brady constantly harrassed and hit in the pocket and thus ineffective for 3/4 of the Miami game didn't teach you anything? Screw defensive rankings. With our receiving corp and O-line in the shape they're in, we MUST establish a rushing attack. Brady and co. don't stand a chance passing the ball effectively against that D if they're pinning their ears back on every play and we can't use a lot of play action.

    Like the HOU fan said above, don't believe the stats.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  18. supafly

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    I agree that there needs to be balance obviously, but I also think that they'll attempt to attack the Texans through the air more than the run game. Not only is that where our bigger threat is, but that's where their weakness is as we've seen in their 2 previous games to Sunday.

    Something around 60/40 would be ideal I suppose.

    My main concern in that it will be difficult to run the ball vs them, and if that's the case they'll have no choice. I think that is what happened in the SEA and MIA games on some level.

    The same concern holds true for the next game vs SF too, although it could be argued that they can stop most of what anyone does.

    I just hope the running game is effective. If so, then fine..use it all day. Unfortunately, that isn't what I am personally expecting.
  19. stcjones

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  20. DarrylS

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    A lot of what they do will be dictated by the O Line, if Mankins, Connolly and Vollmer are able to play well... they will be able to move the ball on the ground, probably not as efficiently as they have in the past.. but enough to keep the D honest.
  21. mayoclinic

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    We went pass heavy against the Seahawks out of respect for their rush defense (58 pass attempts, 26 rushes) and put up only 23 points and lost. We went pass heavy against Arizona, and put up only 18 points and lost. The book on Miami was to spread them out rather than go up against their respected run defense, but we didn't exactly dominate doing that through most of 3 quarters, and we ran the ball quite effectively the last quarter+ once we committed to it. We had the lowest YPC allowed going into the Buffalo game, and they ran the ball on us quite effectively and gashed us for 31 points.

    Houston does NOT have arun defense that is so elite that you can't run against it. The Pats need to stay balanced, and not get one dimensional. Keep the Texans off balance. There will be tons of pass opportunities, but they shouldn't be afraid of running the ball.
  22. AndyJohnson

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    This its backward thinking. You don't influence the defense to ignore tom Brady by running a few times.
    our offense is designed to take what the defense gives. Our personnel was developed to support that. If the Texans try to take away the run we will throw, if they over play the pass we will run.
    ignoring that to tout having balance is wrong. Pretending that balance correlates to sizes in our o is wrong.
    We threw early vs Miami because they were playing the run, we ran late because they were playing the pass. The success wasn't the play call it was the timing of the play call


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  23. JR4

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    Right on! Brady has even said so in several interviews.
    The Patriots pass/run ratio is largely determined by the opponents defense.
    This is so this year because Patriots have a good run offense as well a good pass offense.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
  24. KontradictioN

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    Everything considered, the running game sucked in Miami so McDaniels put the ball in his best weapon's hands for the majority. But I agree with the basic premise of this thread. Stick with the running game and give Houston a taste of it's own medicine: the play action.
  25. PATSYLICIOUS

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    So what you're saying is Seattle, Arizona, and Miami for alot of that game (the 3 times I can recall that we've gone extreme pass heavy this season) overplayed for the run a vast majority of those games, in essense forcing Tom Brady to beat them?
  26. Henroc

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    weather might be crappy so they'll def run it but dont forget that chad henne exploited their secondary. Texans are hurting back there so pats and co. shouldn't be afraid to take their chances throwing against this secondary. But def at the very least, keeping the run and pass plays in balance would be wise to gain the win over these guys.
  27. mayoclinic

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    In the 3 "unbalanced" games cited - Arizona, Seattle and Miami - the Pats' scored 18, 23 and 23 points for an average of 21.3 PPG and went 1-2. In their other 9 games they scored 366 points for an average of almost 41 PPG and went 8-1.

    Even without Gronk, when the Pats use their whole offensive arsenal - the "whole pig", to use OTG's term - they can't be stopped. But all too often they lit themselves. Look at the Miami game: 32/76 plays, and 31/40 pass attempts, we're targeted at Welker or Hernandez. Remember 2009, when BB admitted that we had nothing after Moss and Welker and our offense was too predictable and too easily shut down. Lloyd, Vereen and Fells were each targeted once, Edelman and Woody 3 times. And until the last 2 drives, the offense was very unbalanced towards the pass and the spread. That won't work against Houston.

    This team has to start using all its weapons. Maintain run-pass balance no matter what. mix the spread with plsy action. Get Lloyd involved more. Get Vereen involved more. Get Fells involved more. Stop trying to "take what they give you" and just give them more than they can handle, every week. No one can stop us but ourselves. Execution is obviously part of it, but it's not just execution - it's taking away weapons and making the offense easier to defend.
  28. JR4

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    But what you say is sort of opposite with what Brady said and what was done to back up Brady's statement.

    Go back to the first Bills game. PATs ran 36 times from stats I read. Brady
    was asked after that game why they ran so much. He said it was because the Bills defense was going small.

    To be balanced just for the sake of being balanced is not a good idea. IMO.

    Are you saying if the opposition defense is configured to take away the
    run, the PATs should ignore easy pass plays just to be balanced?
  29. mayoclinic

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    I'm say that the Pats sometimes go overboard with situational planning and get too unbalanced. When the Jets put 8 DBs on the field and dare you to run, it's great to actually have a running game and be able to run it down their throat, and it's stupid to throw the ball into coverage. And when a team has a massive front it's probably not smart to build a game plan against smashing it down their throat. But in general, the Pats offense does better when it uses all its options, keeps things balanced, keeps defenses off balance, and forces them to respect the different options. We've seen situations where the team has perhaps been more respectful of an opponents reported strength than was necessary the case. They ran the ball quite effectively against Miami on the last 2 drives. And the vaunted Seattle run defense got shredded the following week by San Francisco, so it's not clear to me that we couldn't have run the ball effectively against Seattle and made things a bit easier for Brady against their very good secondary.

    I think that Josh McDaniels sometimes outsmarts himself with situational planning and scheming. I understand that Houston's defense is #2 in rushing YPG allowed, but it's not clear to me that they are an elite rush defense, and I think it would be a mistake to abandon the rush against them and spread things out to the extent of being unbalanced. I think that the offense needs to remain balanced, keep a decent amount of commitment to running the ball - even if it's not effective at first - and use a fair amount of play action, as well as the hurry up and spread. Keep the Texan's defense off balance, don't let them get into a rhythm, don't let them tee off on Brady, don't get predictable, and above all, use all of the available offensive options.

    JMHO.
  30. Deus Irae

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    Every year people crack out the "balance" nonsense. Every year, others of us end up having to explain the difference between correlation and causation, and having to demonstrate, time and again, that the reason you get more runs in wins is because you're running more while ahead, not because you're balanced while even or behind. How many times do we have to go through this before the "balance" people stop acting as if they've got an actual point when it comes to the Patriots offense?

    They don't. Balance looks nice on the stat sheet. It's generally meaningless in games involving the Patriots offense.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012
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