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Five Nickels or a Quarter

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by cstjohn17, Mar 7, 2012.

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  1. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Should the Patriots swing for the fences and try to grab Mario Williams? or try for a bunch of doubles.

    For about the same cost as Williams the Patriots could likely sign 3 or 4 of the following.

    Connolly, BJGE, Robert Meachem, Jason Jones, Adam Carriker, Jarrett Johnson, Nate Washington, Ronald Bartell, etc.

    Somehow I think the Patriots will go for plan B.
  2. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think the Pats will more likely go with plan B too, but I hope the list of plan B players are better than the ones you listed.
  3. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Some won't agree, but ever since the Adalius Thomas debacle I truly believe that Belichick may hesitate on signing the biggest prized defensive Free Agent in the offseason.

    Ever since that happened the team has gone for the older type players and lower profile guys; it seems safer and if they don't work out it does not cripple the cap...

    Belichick seems to like to play it safe and I expect a bunch of Joe WTFs to be on the payroll by training camp, not the flashy players that fans want and Belichick could care less what we think anyway.

    I think he will definately sign Conolly, BJGE back...then maybe even look at Koppen again and work on the middle part of FA shopping and the draft to complete his team for 2012.

    I would be totally surprised if Wallace,Williams,Jackson ect: come here...A player like Reggie Wayne who will come pretty cheap and has back pedigree and experience is what Belichick usually seeks in a player.

    I would expect guys like Reggie Wayne as offensive players and Matt Roth type defensive players to be looked at more seriously than the expensive ones.

    This team went all out on a frenzied shopping spree in 2007 and it appears to be a rarity when this team does that.
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  4. olschool

    olschool Rookie

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    After Adalius Thomas and Moss definitely plan B.
  5. DarrylS

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    After Len Bias and Adalius Thomas I am forever shy on tying up all your marbles in a marquis player..
  6. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Your analogy reminds me of a George Carlin joke. I never F'ed a 10 but one night I F'ed 5 2s and I think that ought to count for something.



    That said I tend to lean toward plan B.
  7. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm fine with spending for top end talent. I'm just not sold on Williams.
  8. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    What could possibly be your reasoning for not being sold on Williams?
  9. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think people overstate the Adalius Thomas impact on Belichick going after high priced free agents.

    First, Belichick did pursue Julius Peppers. The money quickly got into the ridiculous range and the Pats dropped out, but if Belichick wasn't going to spend in free agency he wouldn't have even made the call.

    Second, free agency has been pretty devoid of most of the top players worth spending big bucks on. Prior few years to the uncapped year, teams were able to retain most of their best players because the constantly growing cap. The uncapped year kept most of the best would be free agents stuck with their teams because they became RFAs with the poison pill. Last year there wasn't much of a free agency.

    Since the Pats signed Thomas in 2007, name the top free agents the Pats passes on. I guarantee you they were mostly non-elite players getting elite player money. I think the Pats will be willing top pay top dollar to an elite player as long as it isn't stupid money (see Peppers), but they are not going to pay top dollar to the marquee free agents in a year where the marquee free agents are nothing more than second tier players. The only truly elite player who has hit free agency other than Peppers that I can think of since the Pats signed Thomas was Nmandi Asomougha and the Pats thought they were set at CB when he was a free agent.

    I firmly believe the biggest reason Belichick hasn't gone after high priced free agents since Adalius Thomas is because most of the high priced free agents were overpaid because the free agent pool in that year sucked.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  10. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I question his ability to cover as an OLB in the BB 3-4. At 290, he's big for the position, but you don't want him playing a 3-4 DE in the 2 gap system, either. So, in order to bring him in, the Patriots are either gambling on him as an oversized OLB or they're scrapping the return to the 3-4, which means that Williams would be hurting Spikes' future prospects.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  11. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Is Williams that much more of a prized free agent than Adalius was in 2007?

    Not saying he would turn out to be a resentful S.O.B. like Thomas, but it is risky when you are spending huge $$$$ on ONE player to be the savior of your defense.
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  12. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yes, Thomas was a versatile cog, Williams is an elite difference maker along the same mold as Peppers.

    Thomas played great in 2007 and even during the Superbowl he made some plays. After that it went downhill.
  13. Two Eight

    Two Eight Rookie

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    Ironically the actual melt value of a quarter is about 5 cents while the actual melt value of 5 nickels is about 30 cents...

    Just sayin'
  14. letekro

    letekro Rookie

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    Even Peppers would have been an experiment in our defense, but he was such an athletic freak it was worth talking about. Williams is definitely not on Peppers' level athletically or production-wise, so I'm not seeing a large investment in him.
  15. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    The comment I responded too said they were OK with spending the big money just not on Williams. I noted in a earlier response I think the wiser thing to do would be to spread out the money. That said I would love to have Mario on this team but at what cost?

    Well I guess those are some pretty valid points. I guess I would throw out two counter points I know it was for a short time but I thought he was said to be thriving in the Phillips 3-4 (which is different than ours but still) and how much coverage do you honestly remember Willie giving or even how much coverage did you get from Colvin or Vrable?

    Mostly the OLBs are asked to cover in the flats when they do cover and I think Mario has the skills to do that. He certainly is not running down field with backs and TEs.

    OK I lied a third counterpoint would be that even if we play 3-4 on first down without him I would still love to have him as a sub rusher which in the past you would say was not worth the investment but the reality is we were in our sub D more than our base. (probably too much money for someone who is not every down player but this is worst case scenario).
  16. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    Is that accurate? I have heard the penny cost more than a penny to make but I have not heard this about any other currency.
  17. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    Wait a minute. Randy Moss may have ended his time here with a whimper, but he was incredible from 2007-2009.

    2007: 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 ypc, 23 td
    2008: 69 rec, 1008 yds, 14.6 ypc, 11 td
    2009: 83 rec, 1264 yds, 15.2 ypc, 13 td

    How in the world was he a bad free agent signing? Guy was incredible those three seasons.
  18. ivanvamp

    ivanvamp Rookie

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    AT had 5 tackles and 2 sacks in the SB, and he should have had a 3rd on the Tyree play but he was held around his neck (no call, of course). He didn't just "make some plays" in that game....he was a monster.
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Colvin learned to cover. Vrabel was capable in coverage. Willie was playing the elephant at a time where the rest of the defense could make up for his coverage issues, which weren't as bad as Williams' are likely to be.

    It was only a small sample but, when I saw Williams, I didn't see a player capable of playing much coverage.

    Yeah, you don't drop $16 million on a sub rusher who hasn't registered even 10 sacks in any of the last 3 seasons. Hell, for that matter, you don't drop that kind of cash on a full-time pass rusher who hasn't registered even 10 sacks in any of the last 3 seasons. That's my take, anyway.
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Marcus Trufant will be increasing the CB free agent pool by one:

    Seahawks will release Marcus Trufant | ProFootballTalk

    As a cut, he won't have to wait until FA starts to start looking for a job. He could be one of those nickels (maybe a dime).
  21. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    accurate stats:

    For the fiscal year ending September 30, 2011, the unit cost for the cent was 2.41 cents and the cost for the nickel was 11.18 cents. Metals have been very high lately, and any plans to change the composition have been squashed

    Cost to Make Penny and Nickel Rises, Annual Loss Reaches $116.7 Million | Coin Update
  22. PatsFan2

    PatsFan2 Rookie

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    Didn't know Mario was that Big he needs be at aleast 260-270 to be effect as a OLB in our system. We have enough DE types...we need a Hybrid E/OLB type a little smaller than Mario. I think he's off our list.
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
  23. patsinthesnow

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    #87 Jersey

    Marcus Trufant released, that could be another nickel.
  24. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    You almost have me convinced. But if I were willing to spend the big bucks on one player he would be the guy. Again I would prefer to get a CB, WR, Safety, and OL and DL help rather than just him but that doesnt mean I wouldnt want him.

    I would throw out that Willie Mac only once in his career had double digit sacks. Mario is 27 with 50 something career sacks Willie Mac had 86 total in his career(I dont think this counted playoffs).
  25. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    OK then that is nuts.

    I say we just scrap the nickel and penny and spread the money we save not making these coins out to the public to fray the cost of all products being rounded to the nearest dime. I think we would end up in the plus.
  26. Observer

    Observer Rookie

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    I can put a quarter in the washing machine. All I can do with five nickels is be glad I still have 4 left when one falls out of my pocket. Still can't wash clothes with the remaining though :(.
  27. PittPatriot

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    I appreciate the wit…but it took you 2 examples over 25 years to make your point?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2012
  28. ay-yo

    ay-yo Rookie

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    You need nickles and quarters on both sides of the ball. The defense has 1 quarter (Vince), 1 Canadian quarter (Mayo) and a whole bunch of nickles. The offense has several quarters (light, Mankins, Welker) and a half dollar (Brady). I worry we spend too much $ on offense.
  29. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    The way a lot of FA is going and where the strength of the draft is, and how hard it is for a rookie to make immediate impact, I'm on the side of getting a lot of those nickels.

    Correct me if I'm wrong (and until Miguel returns I probably am) We currently are right about 20MM under the cap, and have the easy capability, if you consider the $6MM roll over, the $3MM carry forward, and any number of easy restructure,, and or cuts., to add another $10-15MM to that number. But for this case lets see what happens if we keep the scenario at 20MM.

    I know that seems like a lot, but really it isn't when you consider Welker's effect.

    1. $10MM - Welker
    2. $5MM - draft picks
    3. $2.5MM Koppen or Connelly
    4, $2.5M Anderson

    So there you are. Have you ever seen $20MM go so fast. We haven't even finished signing our own picks and the 20MM is gone So lets get into the NEXT $15MM and see what we can buy

    1. $1MM Carter - $3MM signing bonus on a 3 year deal he'll never see the end of. Essentially $3MM for the 2012 season
    2. $2.5MM - BJGE
    3. $2MM - Richard Marshall - younger and more position flexibility than Trufaunt. Brought in to be a FS and CB depth He'll cost us $4MM/yr but only 2 this season
    4. $2MM - Adam Carraker or Manny Lawson - One might be the Mike Wright replacement, Lawson could be the next Vrabel/Ninko candidate.
    5. $2MM - reserve for in season additions - Most teams like to have at least $2MM available for this purpose.

    That's close to another $10MM and leaves us with MAYBE an additional $5MM more to play with for guys necessary guys I might have forgotten or low end players who would improve the team.

    BTW - since I was talking about the cap, I have a couple of questions for those learned fans who know more about the cap than I do.

    1. Now supposedly we have $6MM in cap space we didn't use last season that we can "carry over" to this season. My question is, what (if any) consequences are there if you DO carry over this number, and/or what are the benefits if you don't????

    2. The same questions go for the $2 or3MM in "carry forwards"?

    I am very unclear how they work. Thanks

    BOTTOM LINE - Building a tight team is more a matter of getting a very few or the RIGHT quarters in sync with the great majority of nickels you have on the team. Because the truth of the matter is, that most of those nickels' talent level are at about 85-90% of the so called "quarters". And in the game of attrition that the NFL has become, you better have a lot of good "nickels" at the bottom of your roster, if you are going to survive.

    To that end, adding 4 quality "nickels" generally will end up improving your team to a great extent than 1 quarter
  30. makoute

    makoute Rookie

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    And unfortunately they have come short in the biggest games.
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