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Five Nickels or a Quarter


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I question his ability to cover as an OLB in the BB 3-4. At 290, he's big for the position, buy you don't want him playing a 3-4 DE in the 2 gap system, either. So, in order to bring him in, the Patriots are either gambling on him as an oversized OLB or they're scrapping the return to the 3-4, which means that Williams would be hurting Spikes' future prospects.

Didn't know Mario was that Big he needs be at aleast 260-270 to be effect as a OLB in our system. We have enough DE types...we need a Hybrid E/OLB type a little smaller than Mario. I think he's off our list.
 
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Marcus Trufant released, that could be another nickel.
 
Colvin learned to cover. Vrabel was capable in coverage. Willie was playing the elephant at a time where the rest of the defense could make up for his coverage issues, which weren't as bad as Williams' are likely to be.



It was only a small sample but, when I saw Williams, I didn't see a player capable of playing much coverage.



Yeah, you don't drop $16 million on a sub rusher who hasn't registered even 10 sacks in any of the last 3 seasons. Hell, for that matter, you don't drop that kind of cash on a full-time pass rusher who hasn't registered even 10 sacks in any of the last 3 seasons. That's my take, anyway.

You almost have me convinced. But if I were willing to spend the big bucks on one player he would be the guy. Again I would prefer to get a CB, WR, Safety, and OL and DL help rather than just him but that doesnt mean I wouldnt want him.

I would throw out that Willie Mac only once in his career had double digit sacks. Mario is 27 with 50 something career sacks Willie Mac had 86 total in his career(I dont think this counted playoffs).
 
accurate stats:

For the fiscal year ending September 30, 2011, the unit cost for the cent was 2.41 cents and the cost for the nickel was 11.18 cents. Metals have been very high lately, and any plans to change the composition have been squashed

Cost to Make Penny and Nickel Rises, Annual Loss Reaches $116.7 Million | Coin Update

OK then that is nuts.

I say we just scrap the nickel and penny and spread the money we save not making these coins out to the public to fray the cost of all products being rounded to the nearest dime. I think we would end up in the plus.
 
I can put a quarter in the washing machine. All I can do with five nickels is be glad I still have 4 left when one falls out of my pocket. Still can't wash clothes with the remaining though :(.
 
After Len Bias and Adalius Thomas I am forever shy on tying up all your marbles in a marquis player..


I appreciate the wit…but it took you 2 examples over 25 years to make your point?
 
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You need nickles and quarters on both sides of the ball. The defense has 1 quarter (Vince), 1 Canadian quarter (Mayo) and a whole bunch of nickles. The offense has several quarters (light, Mankins, Welker) and a half dollar (Brady). I worry we spend too much $ on offense.
 
The way a lot of FA is going and where the strength of the draft is, and how hard it is for a rookie to make immediate impact, I'm on the side of getting a lot of those nickels.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and until Miguel returns I probably am) We currently are right about 20MM under the cap, and have the easy capability, if you consider the $6MM roll over, the $3MM carry forward, and any number of easy restructure,, and or cuts., to add another $10-15MM to that number. But for this case lets see what happens if we keep the scenario at 20MM.

I know that seems like a lot, but really it isn't when you consider Welker's effect.

1. $10MM - Welker
2. $5MM - draft picks
3. $2.5MM Koppen or Connelly
4, $2.5M Anderson

So there you are. Have you ever seen $20MM go so fast. We haven't even finished signing our own picks and the 20MM is gone So lets get into the NEXT $15MM and see what we can buy

1. $1MM Carter - $3MM signing bonus on a 3 year deal he'll never see the end of. Essentially $3MM for the 2012 season
2. $2.5MM - BJGE
3. $2MM - Richard Marshall - younger and more position flexibility than Trufaunt. Brought in to be a FS and CB depth He'll cost us $4MM/yr but only 2 this season
4. $2MM - Adam Carraker or Manny Lawson - One might be the Mike Wright replacement, Lawson could be the next Vrabel/Ninko candidate.
5. $2MM - reserve for in season additions - Most teams like to have at least $2MM available for this purpose.

That's close to another $10MM and leaves us with MAYBE an additional $5MM more to play with for guys necessary guys I might have forgotten or low end players who would improve the team.

BTW - since I was talking about the cap, I have a couple of questions for those learned fans who know more about the cap than I do.

1. Now supposedly we have $6MM in cap space we didn't use last season that we can "carry over" to this season. My question is, what (if any) consequences are there if you DO carry over this number, and/or what are the benefits if you don't????

2. The same questions go for the $2 or3MM in "carry forwards"?

I am very unclear how they work. Thanks

BOTTOM LINE - Building a tight team is more a matter of getting a very few or the RIGHT quarters in sync with the great majority of nickels you have on the team. Because the truth of the matter is, that most of those nickels' talent level are at about 85-90% of the so called "quarters". And in the game of attrition that the NFL has become, you better have a lot of good "nickels" at the bottom of your roster, if you are going to survive.

To that end, adding 4 quality "nickels" generally will end up improving your team to a great extent than 1 quarter
 
You need nickles and quarters on both sides of the ball. The defense has 1 quarter (Vince), 1 Canadian quarter (Mayo) and a whole bunch of nickles. The offense has several quarters (light, Mankins, Welker) and a half dollar (Brady). I worry we spend too much $ on offense.

And unfortunately they have come short in the biggest games.
 
I think that we need a little of both. Welker definitely counts as a quarter for the offense. I think that any more receiver help is likely to come via the draft where they will go for a receiver with speed that can also contribute on special teams returning kicks. I'm not against Brandon Lloyd, but my fear is that no matter what Gronk, Welker, Hernandez will be the top 3 options, so let's not spend another 5+ million on the 4th option. I'd rather have a couple of nickels in addition to Welker, like (Connolly or Koppen) and BJGE.

For the defense, I am not sure if we should go after the pass rusher in free agency or the draft. I think that we need to add an athlete to the defense and would prefer at least one quarter on that side of the ball. If Mario Williams is unattainable, then perhaps another talent like John Abraham or even secondary help like Brandon Carr. Then after one quarter for the defense, a couple of nickels for them too, Ihedigbo, Molden, and Carter. I fear that Anderson will need at least 3 years and at least $20 million to retain and would count as the quarter. Carter, though ahead in his rehab, can't work out for teams and is unlikely to get signed quickly, so we may be able to get him back for a 1 year deal and less money, let's say for a dime. We'll need to add some top talent to the defense in the draft too.

So if the answer can be both. I would like 2 quarters, 1 dime, and 5 or 6 nickels. I would like to see some deals restructured to clear cap space as 2012 will have a flat or declining cap which is unusual and the cap will likely go up a bunch in a few years with the new TV deals. So it would be appropriate to move some reasonable amount of money forward so that we can address our needs this year without creating too large a problem in future years. Let's say we move $7 million forward. That is a far cry from the $25 million in cap space that Pittsburgh just created by restructuring half their team and releasing a bunch of players. They'll be up against the cap for years to come because of that. Same as the Jets.
 
How about 2 dimes and 1 nickel?

I'd love a guy like R.Marshall, E.Wright etc at CB. I think that would help to shore up the secondary, and I would also expect at least one draft pick for that area. (DIME)

I'd also love a guy like R.Wayne, or B.Llyod at WR. (DIME)

Then another guy on the D line who can provide depth and experience, along with at least one or two draft picks. (NICKEL)
 
perhaps another talent like John Abraham

Abraham is apparently looking for "top 5 DE money" according to him and his agent. Somewhere near 12 million per yr. Those are words directly from his mouth.

That would certainly put him way out of the Pats market, as I would assume that they wouldn't pay any more than 1/2 of that for him.
 
I certainly hope Anderson doesn't cost 3 years 20 mil. I was hoping more like 4 years 16-20 mil.

Stanford Routt got 3 years and 20 mil from KC. I'm thinking that makes the price tag for Carr or Finnegan around 8-10 per year. Too rich for my blood. Even Marshall may command 5-6 per which would be pretty expensive.

I'm curious to see if the type of interest Mathis gets. I'd pay him 3 mil a year to be a sub rusher. Might be a better option than Carter given the health of each player.
 
I certainly hope Anderson doesn't cost 3 years 20 mil. I was hoping more like 4 years 16-20 mil.

Stanford Routt got 3 years and 20 mil from KC. I'm thinking that makes the price tag for Carr or Finnegan around 8-10 per year. Too rich for my blood. Even Marshall may command 5-6 per which would be pretty expensive.

I'm curious to see if the type of interest Mathis gets. I'd pay him 3 mil a year to be a sub rusher. Might be a better option than Carter given the health of each player.

I believe the Colts just locked Mathis up to an extension, within the past couple of days.

As far as Marshall's 5-6 million, that is right around what Bodden got, IIRC. That's more than fair, considering his versatility and track record. They could look for a guy like E.Wright, T.Porter, or A.Ross, but I don't think they're going to find much more/if any of a bargain, especially when you consider the talent levels.
 
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Indy gave Mathis 4 years, 36 mil w/ 15 guaranteed :eek:. That's crazy for Indy, great for Mathis. Certainly doesn't help our negotiations w/ Anderson.
 
Indy gave Mathis 4 years, 36 mil w/ 15 guaranteed :eek:. That's crazy for Indy, great for Mathis. Certainly doesn't help our negotiations w/ Anderson.

I'm not 100% sure that Anderson is going to be wanted here. As you point out, he's going to want 'fair' money, and I'm not convinced the team cares enough about him. Even if they do, I don't think they can afford him.

If they keep one of the two, I think it will be Carter. He'll be much more cap friendly and affordable. I don't see much of a chance at retaining Anderson.

They'll try to replace the production in 3 ways:

1. The draft--where we should definitely choose at least one to two picks
2. Hoping that Carter can play somewhere close to his level of last yr
3. Lower level FA's like Merling, Holliday, Redding (pick your player, as I'm just giving examples)
 
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I thought signing big names was the way to go last year, and look how that turned out, albeit they were relatively old guys. We ultimately ended up having a bunch of unproductive players, and the only glimmer of success got his quad tore the eff up.

I'd definitely go with plan B. We NEED depth, STARTING CALIBER depth especially on defense. Not some shoe ins who unexpectedly surprises us 2/3s through the season while desperately trying to scrape together a competent defense. I will not complain about whichever DBs we get because they will be an upgrade to most guys who are here right now. I will be happy.

You know what else? Put free agency to the side, BB needs to draft like his life depends on it because in the grand scheme of things he/they have been mediocre for some years. You won't NEED to be double dipping in free agency like you're some crack fiend looking to get your fix if you just draft talented guys consistently, like the goddamn Giants...


rant over:mad:
 
I thought signing big names was the way to go last year, and look how that turned out, albeit they were relatively old guys. We ultimately ended up having a bunch of unproductive players, and the only glimmer of success got his quad tore the eff up.

I'd definitely go with plan B. We NEED depth, STARTING CALIBER depth especially on defense. Not some shoe ins who unexpectedly surprises us 2/3s through the season while desperately trying to scrape together a competent defense. I will not complain about whichever DBs we get because they will be an upgrade to most guys who are here right now. I will be happy.

You know what else? Put free agency to the side, BB needs to draft like his life depends on it because in the grand scheme of things he/they have been mediocre for some years. You won't NEED to be double dipping in free agency like you're some crack fiend looking to get your fix if you just draft talented guys consistently, like the goddamn Giants...


rant over:mad:

I think that it's a lot more difficult for us in the draft lately, due to the 3-4 standards that BB has had in the past. Then there's the complexity of the schemes on both sides of the ball here too.

It's possible that maybe BB has relaxed some of his standards by changing up the base looks a bit, so that may open up some additional fits here.

Just a crazy thought though, take it with a grain of salt.

FWIW--I don't know if the NYG have drafted that much better, when you consider all of the positions. We've certainly whipped them at TE's, even possibly RB's if our 2 new guys pan out. There's also the fact that there were 3 probowl draft picks (Warren, Wilfork, Seymour) on our D-line for many yrs too. QB is a big plus for us too, as they didn't even draft Manning, and their backups are not as good either. Our OL picks have been pretty damn good, so there's another position where we have drafted better than the Giants too.

As far as the DB's go, we came out of this past season with:

--a 1st rd pick in McCourty who was only the 4th NEP rookie to make the pro-bowl last yr. No one could've envisioned a sophmore slump. Even then, they utilized his skills the best they could by moving him to FS in subs

--a starting CB who led the NFL in interceptions in Arrington

--the 33rd overall pick (basically a 1st rounder) who couldn't play due to injury, but proved that he can line up and play physically due to his starting the season as our #2 CB

--a hybrid CB/S who we stole off of OAK's practice squad, who progressed enough to make some of the biggest plays of the yr in the AFCCG on consectutive back to back plays

--a sure fire SS who has emerged to one of the top 10 SS in the game. His situation was hampered due to missing 1/2 the season with injuries

With guys like Dowling, McCourty, and Moore as all providing hybrid-like skills to show the versatility that is needed in a major passing NFL, we already have a good base of DB's. Add in the NFL's leader in INT's to play the slot CB position (he did a fine job vs Victor Cruz), and Chung as SS, and you have 5 DB's right off the bat who look just fine.

Add in another draft pick, or/and a mid level FA, and the secondary is shored up significantly. Hell, if we use McCourty, Dowling, or Moore at FS, we already have a much improved secondary from last yr.

Remember that they made a lot of improvements from the 1st half of the season, and looked pretty good down the stretch in the playoffs. I don't blame the Manningham catch on poor coverage. The NYG were held to 1 TD over the first 59:01 of the game. That's not exactly bad play for a defense who will improve in the talent level significantly.
 
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Maybe I was too hasty to say the Giants have drafted more consistently than the Pats. It's evident that we have a great O-line built through the draft and I didn't take that into account because of how dissatisfied I am am with the defense. If you look at their defense, it consists of many 1st to 2nd round picks. Webster, Ross, Amukamara, Kiwanuka, JPP, Joseph, Thomas (I'm probably missing out others) all accumulated over years. Now look what the Patriots have, Mayo, Wilfork, Chung, McCourty, Spikes.

...this post looked pretty persuasive in my head but when I wrote it out it pretty much conveys that the drafting has been somewhat evenly successful which nullifies my argument.

The point is, I want to see this defense not have the ball matriculated down the field on them, regardless of net yardage, points allowed and all that other good stuff. I don't know if the problem is scheme or personnel, but I just want to see a visibly improved defense from the get-go next year, not halfway through the season. I think depth through the draft is of utmost importance since we already have an established set of guys who 'do' need backup.
 
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