Dump on me all you want, I think Krafty is a little smarter than he's given credit for

[Jackson 2]

Wow. What an insult. You're such a freaking Genius that you see things in posts that others can't see.

You misunderstood.

Now, you're just being an insulting jackass. I'll rephrase the question: as a fan, what do you propose we do to resolve what you see as the Robert Kraft ownership problem?

 

[RayClay]

Sorry, Ray. I absolutely agree that Kraft has been the best owner of this team, and has done plenty of good things in that regard. That history buys him some slack in decisionmaking.

With that said, I see nothing in the handling of Deflategate that would persuade me to believe he is playing chess here. He backed the Commissioner publicly after his mishandling of Rice. That not only was dumb, but it put the Pats name in a Ravens problem, synonymous with callous disregard for DV claims. This donation would appear to be a mea culpa on that, nothing more.

He was photographed walking alone with Goodell at the owners meeting when fans were fuming. He then is reported talking to Berman after a favorable decision with Brady (anyone who has ever dealt with an attorney should know that is going to find its way into a motion to recuse if this case ever returns to that judge after appeal). In both cases, the two people had to be there, but the effects of looking chummy in no way inure to the benefit of Brady or the team if you have any sense of PR issues.

I cannot profess to have studied the team's ability to appeal, even after making the statement he would not appeal. Is that effort shut down by the CBA, even now, under the circumstances? Is the evidence of the equipment handler 'misconduct' any better than Brady's evidence? If not, then why do you believe it was pointless to appeal the decision? Why would it be pointless to fight for that now, given the double talk going on with those two targets and who precisely suspended them?

If you read the statements he has made in the course of Deflategate, please explain how that represents more than a person who completely misreads public opinion and his fanbase. The final PR push reflects an acknowledgement he may have finally clued in to that. Do I believe he may have initially trusted the Commissioner in error? Sure. But what level of trust exercise would make you risk your billion dollar business and its well-being in giving up a valuable commodity in the hope you would be taken care of in the end? Wouldn't you want to know the what's and when's of these events? How long do you let this go on before you question that decision, and take some action?

I have stated from the beginning I am open for an explanation for all this, other than the obvious. All the evidence available (his statement and actions) suggests his decision-making is either naive, clueless or self-interested (meaning he has an ally in Goodell and has declined to pull the trigger on decisions in an effort to save Goodell or save himself). I don't hate him for that, but I certainly will not celebrate that he has handled any of this well. I submit if you are hoping for the story that explains how his decision-making with the Commissioner will one day be actions for the good of the team or game, then you may be waiting a long time for that day as it likely will never come.

I don't believe he was acting based on public opinion [maybe at the end].

I believe he thought Goodell was under control, or at least sane. he sincerely expected to get an apology. when the punishment came in may, he was shocked. I was ashocked. If you say you expected that, I question your veracity.

He screwed up. He weighed his options. Begging judge, jury executioner didn't seem a good one and his son agreed.

Maybe he's going to do nothing, but, it seems to me, nothing can be done without getting rid of goodell and minus a felony by goodell, that involves getting the other owners to can him, or having him resign. Either way, it will take more than a vote.

 

[IllegalContact]

I don't believe he was acting based on public opinion [maybe at the end].

I believe he thought Goodell was under control, or at least sane. he sincerely expected to get an apology. when the punishment came in may, he was shocked. I was ashocked. If you say you expected that, I question your veracity.

He screwed up. He weighed his options. Begging judge, jury executioner didn't seem a good one and his son agreed.

Maybe he's going to do nothing, but, it seems to me, nothing can be done without getting rid of goodell and minus a felony by goodell, that involves getting the other owners to can him, or having him resign. Either way, it will take more than a vote.

I'm sure more than a few owners think 'what the f*ck are we doing' when it comes to deflategate

 

[Tony2046]

Now, you're just being an insulting jackass. I'll rephrase the question: as a fan, what do you propose we do to resolve what you see as the Robert Kraft ownership problem?

Rephrase the question?

What are you talking about?

I had no real opinion on the issue and was just simply reading through the thread. You misunderstood a post and I tried to clarify that for you and now I'm the jackass.

Your holier than thou ego is getting the best of you.

You misunderstood the post. Plain and simple. If you can't accept that it's on you not me.

The Gr8test:

That's a good point but having BB is such a huge advantage that it may be instructive to ask which owners would take BB, give him total power over all football and personnel decisions, and butt out and let the winning commence/continue, and only jump in when BB and the team need to be defended from Goodell and his NFL* ex-Rat lackeys.

I can give you one owner for sure who couldn't leave well enough alone, and that would be Jerry Jones.

Mr. Arrogant

Yeah, I agree with you. I'd much rather have Jerry Jones as my owner rather than Bob Kraft. He could be the GM here, too, as he is in Dallas, and Belichick could be his puppet, just as Jason Garret is. That's a GREAT idea. Thanks for thinking of it!! Are you f###### ****ting me? Is this what it's come to? And for what it's worth, I think your usually a pretty good poster. Jesus Effing Christ...

The Gr8test:

If you think I'm suggesting Jerry Jones would be a better owner than Kraft, then you totally misunderstood my post.

Jerry Jones is the first owner I'm suggesting who would FAIL as owner with BB as his coach.

Jerry meddles and wants credit.

Mr. Arrogant:

Then your post about Jerry Jones was nonsensical.

You misunderstood. Go home. You lose.

 

[MassPats38]

I believe he thought Goodell was under control, or at least sane. he sincerely expected to get an apology. when the punishment came in may, he was shocked. I was ashocked. If you say you expected that, I question your veracity.

Ray-

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying you would question my veracity if I predicted Goodell was going to punish the Pats or was not going to apologize? Nothing about this suggested an apology was coming to me. I expected, based on the stupidity of the issue, that it would be "insufficient evidence of misconduct" or a minor fine for the balls - a Pontius Pilate "washing of the hands" approach in order to placate the rest of the NFL. But little with this Commissioner seems to follow a rule of reason.

But by 'shocked', you mean to say Kraft's response accepting the severe punishment was a product of shock? He himself stated that was a product of "measuring nine times, and cutting once." I absolutely agree his initial thought may have been to trust Goodell to handle this appropriately. But initially was a long time before the punishments came down.

As stated, he is the best owner the Pats have had. I was never been one rallying to get rid of him. But I can find little in his public statements or responses to NFL actions regarding Deflategate to characterize his actions/decisions as meritorious. I know you are digging in the hope there is some Sun Tzu-like strategy here by Kraft to topple Goodell or his minions, but any backlash to those characters has come at the hands of Brady and his handling of the case against him.

 

[Jackson 2]

Rephrase the question?

What are you talking about?

I had no real opinion on the issue and was just simply reading through the thread. You misunderstood a post and I tried to clarify that for you and now I'm the jackass.

Your holier than thou ego is getting the best of you.

You misunderstood the post. Plain and simple. If you can't accept that it's on you not me.

The Gr8test:


Mr. Arrogant


The Gr8test:


Mr. Arrogant:



You misunderstood. Go home. You lose.

Mr. Arrogant? That's rich coming from you. And for the final time, I AM home. You need another, more effective dismissive term, because, frankly, that one sucks.

 

[goheels22002]

Kraft is only one of 32 owners. He does not have the power to fire Goodell and they all gave Goodell the power to enforce anything against any team.

Kraft could turn into the terminator and he would still not have the power to overturn discipline from the league.

This attitude frankly surprises me. In a representative democracy where the most powerful man in the world cannot do anything if congress is against him, we expect an owners to push all the other owners aside and stab the commissioner and take his throne.

He got stabbed in the back and made a fool of himself. He certainly criticized the league more than any current owner has.

I'm glad this thread lives on. It's important that we don't forget that Mr. Kraft took the bait from the Commissioner and was then betrayed.

I agree that he got stabbed in the back. Mr. Kraft believed that by rolling over for the other owners he could put an end to the summer's media war and free Tom Brady from a suspension. He was double-crossed, or he just completely misread the tea leaves on this one.

I also agree that he had no recourse to follow. There is no appeal process in place for an owner to make his case before some third party when his team is penalized. My feeling is that the owners should establish one in the by-laws governing the NFL-Franchise relationship.

Now that Goodell and the owners in charge are continuing with the appeal, and insisting on making Deflatgate an offseason issue in 2016, Mr. Kraft's best bet is to keep his mouth shut.

 

[RayClay]

I'm glad this thread lives on. It's important that we don't forget that Mr. Kraft took the bait from the Commissioner and was then betrayed.

I agree that he got stabbed in the back. Mr. Kraft believed that by rolling over for the other owners he could put an end to the summer's media war and free Tom Brady from a suspension. He was double-crossed, or he just completely misread the tea leaves on this one.

I also agree that he had no recourse to follow. There is no appeal process in place for an owner to make his case before some third party when his team is penalized. My feeling is that the owners should establish one in the by-laws governing the NFL-Franchise relationship.

Now that Goodell and the owners in charge are continuing with the appeal, and insisting on making Deflatgate an offseason issue in 2016, Mr. Kraft's best bet is to keep his mouth shut.

Yeah, I suppose he could have made a big stink, then nobly lost his appeal. there's no doubt that his groveling, while he was in a state of shock over the punishment [as was I when I heard it over the radio, I almost ran off the road] was disgusting to Pats fans, but I really think he was in shock.

I just think the guy has proven in the business world and in his unlikely cornering of the ownership and getting a stadium built, that he wins eventually, even when it takes years.

The corporate world is a strange one. When you get ambushed, you pledge loyalty to the victors and maneuver until you can get into position to screw them all over, one by one or in a coup.

It's pretty obvious to me now, that the league is a stinking landfill of corruption, promoting unsafe practices for players, gambling and ridiculous discipline intended to hurt teams that are too ggood, or aren't politically on the right side.

I would be very surprised if he took this lying down, it would contradict everything he has done and stood for over his whole life in business.

 

[RayClay]

Ray-

Not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you saying you would question my veracity if I predicted Goodell was going to punish the Pats or was not going to apologize? Nothing about this suggested an apology was coming to me. I expected, based on the stupidity of the issue, that it would be "insufficient evidence of misconduct" or a minor fine for the balls - a Pontius Pilate "washing of the hands" approach in order to placate the rest of the NFL. But little with this Commissioner seems to follow a rule of reason.

But by 'shocked', you mean to say Kraft's response accepting the severe punishment was a product of shock? He himself stated that was a product of "measuring nine times, and cutting once." I absolutely agree his initial thought may have been to trust Goodell to handle this appropriately. But initially was a long time before the punishments came down.

As stated, he is the best owner the Pats have had. I was never been one rallying to get rid of him. But I can find little in his public statements or responses to NFL actions regarding Deflategate to characterize his actions/decisions as meritorious. I know you are digging in the hope there is some Sun Tzu-like strategy here by Kraft to topple Goodell or his minions, but any backlash to those characters has come at the hands of Brady and his handling of the case against him.

I expected, based on the stupidity of the issue, that it would be "insufficient evidence of misconduct" or a minor fine for the balls - a Pontius Pilate "washing of the hands" approach in order to placate the rest of the NFL. But little with this Commissioner seems to follow a rule of reason.

Yeah, who expected a circus, a ridiculous report, then a shocking punishment?

that's what I'm trying to say. At first Kraft actually expected an apology, I believe. Imagine that, knowing whats we know now.

Then, kraft is talking with lawyers and advisors for months, probably saying this is a crock, there'll be a slap on the wrist


May 6, the report comes out and i bet his lawyers and advisors were just laughing over what a total incompetent, lying POS it was.

Probably confident as hell this farce was over and they'd be let off, since the report proved nothing and was a farce [they probably knew exponent was a scam agency for hire, more probabvly than not wasn't a legal standard, etc.

6 days later, most of which was analyzing this report, they get ambushed.

Yes, I think it must have been a shock. He has top lawyers and advisory. That was probably a disadvantage, knowing law and actually reading that.

Yeah, I think his jaw fell to the floor when he saw that punishment.

Just my opinion that he evaluated his options and realized he had to backtrack if he was to do anything, because the only way for an owner to do anything is to win over, or eliminate enough owners to remove Goodell.

If there's another way to remove Goodell, I still haven't heard it here, unless people think that isn't important.

 

[flasox27]

I agree with your last point, there is no way either direct way to get rid of Goodell. However, I think based on all evidence your conception of a secret plan to do that is just a fantasy. Where we disagree is that I think Kraft has been duped by the POS and the powers of the League like Mara and Rooney since 2007. When he acquiesced to the excessive and unprecedented punishment for the camera placement which is the seminal cause of thee destruction of the Pats reputation, the foundation for all future actions by Goodell was established. His actions in become the first and foremost defender of the POS in the Rice fiasco when every rational person knew he was lying does not speak well for Kraft's character judgment. Finally the latest case is just the icing on the cake for Goodell since he got his pound of flesh from the Pats in form of draft picks.. The public outside New England is conditioned to believe any lie about the Pats and to discount any truth. It really doesn't matter whether Kraft recognizes or not that he has been duped by the shyster, the Pats and their fans are screwed.

 

[flasox27]

That might work well, but it eludes my question: what are you (we) going to do to resolve the problem?

There is nothing any fan can do. We are screwed.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

The BIG question remains...what NEXT?
Does anyone here think the jealous owners and the ex-Jet infested NYJFL front office have simply given up and will sit by passively as BB & TFB challenge for SB wins the next few seasons?
I don't.
There's more to come.
And Bob Kraft bears responsibility by readily capitulating to the bullies & encouraging them.

 

[Gumby]

Yeah, I suppose he could have made a big stink, then nobly lost his appeal. there's no doubt that his groveling, while he was in a state of shock over the punishment [as was I when I heard it over the radio, I almost ran off the road] was disgusting to Pats fans, but I really think he was in shock.

I just think the guy has proven in the business world and in his unlikely cornering of the ownership and getting a stadium built, that he wins eventually, even when it takes years.

The corporate world is a strange one. When you get ambushed, you pledge loyalty to the victors and maneuver until you can get into position to screw them all over, one by one or in a coup.

It's pretty obvious to me now, that the league is a stinking landfill of corruption, promoting unsafe practices for players, gambling and ridiculous discipline intended to hurt teams that are too ggood, or aren't politically on the right side.

I would be very surprised if he took this lying down, it would contradict everything he has done and stood for over his whole life in business.

1. He shoul have known from camera gate that you can't trust RG. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, ...

2. Going thru with the appeal would have put all media ??s on RG, instead he got a pass.

3. Forgoing the appeal essentially means you gave up simultaneously all rights to sue.

4. Yes, it is a different era than Al Davis and a new owners agreement. But you cannot be bound to any agreement that gives the other party the right to operate on total falsehoods , completely unethically and potentially solely for the benefit of select other parties to the agreement (jesters etc). Just because their former employees are the decision makers I firmly believe that a lawsuit following an unsuccessful appeal would not have been outright dismissed by the courts

5. A lawsuit and subsequent pressure might have been enough to rid us of RG

 

[Tony2046]

Mr. Arrogant? That's rich coming from you. And for the final time, I AM home. You need another, more effective dismissive term, because, frankly, that one sucks.

At least you now understand that you misunderstood the original post. Good to see.

Yes "go home" is a dismissive "term". Good to see you understood that as well.

Baby steps Mr. Jackson. Enjoy the game.

 

[Jackson 2]

At least you now understand that you misunderstood the original post. Good to see.

Yes "go home" is a dismissive "term". Good to see you understood that as well.

Baby steps Mr. Jackson. Enjoy the game.

Bugger off...

 

[Jackson 2]

There is nothing any fan can do. We are screwed.

Not sure that's the case moving forward, but I see your point. I guess that's why I've grown so freaking tired of perseverating over the recent past. It's just a fool' s errand and an enormous waste of time and energy.

 

[RayClay]

I'm sure more than a few owners think 'what the f*ck are we doing' when it comes to deflategate

Oh, they do but, it's always risky to try to depose someone. Things take time.

 

[RayClay]

1. He shoul have known from camera gate that you can't trust RG. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, ...

2. Going thru with the appeal would have put all media ??s on RG, instead he got a pass.

3. Forgoing the appeal essentially means you gave up simultaneously all rights to sue.

4. Yes, it is a different era than Al Davis and a new owners agreement. But you cannot be bound to any agreement that gives the other party the right to operate on total falsehoods , completely unethically and potentially solely for the benefit of select other parties to the agreement (jesters etc). Just because their former employees are the decision makers I firmly believe that a lawsuit following an unsuccessful appeal would not have been outright dismissed by the courts

5. A lawsuit and subsequent pressure might have been enough to rid us of RG

1. Except that, during the interim, nothing was done against the Pats, while N.O and other teams were disciplined. Meanwhile, according to surveys, Kraft had become the most influential leader in all sports according to surveys.

Sometimes it's useful to take the laser focus off your own view and gain some perspective,

therest...

Kraft was never going to sue the league. He couldn't win a lawsuit based on punishment, he belongs to an exclusive club of owners who had agreed to abide by any punishment their Frankenstein meted out.

Had he wanted to sue, he would need to sue to eliminate the anti-trust exemption and the salary cap and declare his club an independent business separate from the NFL.

I'm not a lawyer, but I'll challenge one of the lawyers here to tell me otherwise, meaning that he could get Goods verdict overturned in court without changing the legal status of the nfl.. maybe I'm wrong.

Look at Brady's case. He was not cleared, it was ruled the NFL didn't arbitrate fairly according to union rules/precedents.

There are none for owners.

 

[RayClay]

3. Forgoing the appeal essentially means you gave up simultaneously all rights to sue.

No it doesn't. He could sue now, he could sue then. Unlikely he could win without changing the league, though.

 

[Gumby]

No it doesn't. He could sue now, he could sue then. Unlikely he could win without changing the league, though.

Agreed, but my 'essentially' was meaning that not appealing makes any suit 10x harder to get in the door. Once you get get the court to hear it-giving up the appeal right doesnt matter so much.