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Draft/Get Wheels; BJGE our 3rd Down Man

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Lurks_All_Day, Feb 20, 2011.

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  1. Lurks_All_Day

    Lurks_All_Day Rookie

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    Imagine we have/get/draft an elite RB with serious wheels.....
    I could envision Green-Ellis as the sure-handed, power-enough 3rd down legacy to KFaulk.
    IMHO, Danny Woodhead is just not what we need for down #3 long-term. He's good, (hell he's more than that!) but I don't see him in the league in 5+ years. "Too small" really takes its toll at this level, and I see Danny Woodhead as such: one injury, out for the year... then what? I've suffered injuries that nag for life... He cannot be our future, he's simply not built for the LONG TERM. Or am I wrong about size?
    Contrast Green-Ellis: durable, smart enough to find the holes, and never ever ever (ever? HOLY!) fumbles.
  2. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    By definition, most 3rd down backs are undersized. That's why they are 3rd down backs and not starters. And I think a big part of being a 3rd down back is having that wiggle in the open field to catch a pass in the flat, make the first guy miss, and pick up a first down. I don't think Benny has that ability, while Woody has shown it quite a few times in his brief time in NE.
  3. Lurks_All_Day

    Lurks_All_Day Rookie

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    By definition, BB discards definitions. Anyway.....

    Currently, we have a season loss at 3rd down back (Faulk on IR, and could he/will he/do we welcome his/ return?); a real potential of the same next season (Faulk retires; we rely on Woodhead, who gets injured {my postulation based on size vs. durability: an opinion}).
    What I mean is, let's toss aside current definitions:
    I'm currently re-watching (living in the past, I am) Jest at Pats of last November (45-3 game for many of us LOL). Woodhead had a good game; LawFirm did too. Long story short, I'd rather have BJGE in there on 4th and goal than Woodhead. Blocking by LawFirm was better by miles, too, if that matters.
  4. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    BJGE does not have the hands or shiftiness required to be a 3rd down back. Woody is a perfect 3rd down back for many reasons. He can also line up in the slot when motioned for empty and is a legit threat due to playing WR.

    I wouldn't mind another explosive back but I think BJGE and Woody current roles are perfect for their strengths as players.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  5. Lurks_All_Day

    Lurks_All_Day Rookie

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    I'm far from a football expert, but what is it about "never fumbled" that excludes one from the club of "the hands"?
    Not sure,
    Please expound.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  6. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You would bascially cut Woodhead and have Green-Ellis as our 3rd down back.

    This is the worst idea I've seen in awhile. Woodhead ins the perfect replacment for Faulk.

    Your analysis discusses that Green-Ellis is a better 4th and 1 option than Woodhead. I agree. But that jsut means that you think that Green-Ellis is our best 4th down back (better than Woodhead or Morris). This could be true.

    You implication is that Green-Ellis is not good enough to be our 1st down back or even good enough to share that role. It is here that I strongly disagree. Green-Ellis is good enough to be or Antowain Smith as long as he is here. He is also good enough to share the running back role with another back, whoever belichick chooses as the replacement for Taylor. Personally, I find it unlikely that this replacement will be a draftee.
  7. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    "Hands" in this instance is referring to pass-catching ability only - a critical quality in a classic "3rd down back." What you appear to mostly be talking about is a power/short-yardage back, for which BGE is perfectly suited - much more than Woody.

    Seems to me that most people think of a "3rd-down back" as a guy for 3rd and 5+ who is primarily a pass-catcher, but who can also occasionally get around the corner or take the hand-off straight up the middle - IOW, a guy to keep the defense guessing.
  8. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    3rd down backs are receiving backs who can pick up the blitz. Which of those skills do you think BJGE has as a strength?


    BJGE is a rotational back. He's not a 3rd down back, and he doesn't belong as the team's starting RB1. He's a depth guy.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011
  9. jeffbiologist

    jeffbiologist Rookie

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    What kind of person goes into the draft worried about what their 3rd down back will be like 5 years down the line?? I think we can say we have 3rd down covered for RBs, now lets get someone that can play 1st and 2nd down for a few years.....
  10. jsull87

    jsull87 Rookie

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    by definition he would discard your definition then. Endless loop.

    BJGE is a good back and could do the job as a 3rd down back... woodhead can and has done a better job as the 3rd down back and i see no reaosn for this to change other than because the season's over he is out of site and out of mind.

    The size thing has been used as an excuse but until he gets injured (maroney was way bigger had less production and is injured more btw) then i am rooting for woody all the way just like i was rooting for BJGE before him. Both have been given their role and have flourished. I see no reason to change other than if it's your preference add a RB for the future to add a different dimension and spell BJGE but not because BJGE or Woody can't get it done because they showed last year they could.
  11. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Which back are you referring to as the elite guy you would draft?
  12. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Somehow Woodhead is widely perceived as just a "gimmick" or "good story." Try digging into the numbers and comparing his size, speed, quickness and production with the elite 3rd-down backs of the past decade. You'll find that in stature and athleticism he's a dead ringer for Leon Washington, and that the numbers he put up this season compare well with the best seasons of Washington, Darren Sproles, Kevin Faulk, etc. And unlike Green-Ellis, Woodhead already signed a contract extension. I think you can write his name in as 3rd-down back for the next few years.
  13. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

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    :ugh: Woody and Faulk are not 3rd down backs -- they're change-of-pace backs to employ on any down.
  14. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ~~~Out of Order~~~ PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Benny can catch the ball ... but I doubt he will ever catch it as well as Woodhead. I like it the way it is - also drafting a RB somewhere this draft to add to the rotation.
  15. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    Yeah. That, too. I think of "3rd-down back" and "change of pace back" pretty much interchangeably. Sloppy, perhaps, but . . . .
  16. convertedpatsfan

    convertedpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As patchick mentioned, the perception about Woody is wrong. As far as size goes, a quick comparison below.

    Danny Woodhead: 5'7, 200 lb
    Kevin Faulk: 5'8, 202 lb
    Darren Sproles: 5'6, 181 lb
    Leon Washington: 5'8, 203 lb
    Reggie Bush: 6'0, 203 lb
  17. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

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    I admire your disdain for definitions, and share it.

    However, unless you're going to provide an entirely new Offensive Scheme that makes BenJarvus Green a better 3rd down option than Danny WoodHead ~ a Billion to One Proposition, my friend ~ then you're dead in the water.

    I like Green, but he's a SLUG. The way that Line blocked for him, he should've had 5.0 Yards Per Carry.

    And Danny WoodHead has the MAGIC.

    I and others saw this guy coming a mile AWAY...And I predict that, a year from now, you and anyone who are still ~ unfathomably ~ selling him Short will be scrambling to try to erase your old posts.

    Suggesting that Green is better than WoodHead on 3rd Downs is like saying Jaws 4: The Revenge is better than the original.

    ***

    By the way: The guy you keep mentioning? ~ The Better Faulk ~ is 5'8".

    And he sustained an high level of play for ELEVEN YEARS.

    Whoops. :eek:
  18. meggett

    meggett Rookie

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    couldnt agree more...seems odd to think about our 3rd down back right now. not to mention all are RBs can be used on any down. Woodhead though is the perfect fit for what Kevin Faulk did. Hes got the speed, hands and passion that we need and i bet the Jets wish they saw. Would love a big time playmaker at RB, but they dont grown on trees.....hopefully Ingram hanging off a branch at #17...wishful thinking.:eek:
  19. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's what makes it so hilarious. . . . They DID see it, and cut him anyways. :singing:
  20. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Green-Ellis or Woodhead or Faulk = Running Back. [​IMG]
  21. everlong

    everlong Rookie

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    Sproles is the guy I compared him to. Looking at the numbers last year for Woodhead in 14 games vs Sproules best numbers.

    Woodhead

    97/547 5.6 Rushing
    34/379 11.1 Receiving
    926 yards from scrimmage

    Sproles

    61/330 5.4 Rushing (2008)
    59/520 8.8 Receiving (2010)
    840 yards from scrimmage (2009)

    Pretty impressive.
  22. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    True. In 14 games, Woodhead handily beat all of Faulk's stat averages (pro-rated for 14 games) except one - fumbles. Faulk averaged 2.25 fumbles per 14 games (though the majority were early in his career); Woody had one all year.

    In fairness, Faulk was also the Pats primary KR from 1999-2002, averaging 34 returns for 787 yds per season (23.1 yds/KR) and scoring twice on KRs in his career - numbers that, of course, Tate beat easily this season. [Note: Tate's receiving numbers and total YfS were also better than Faulk's seasonal averages.]
  23. meggett

    meggett Rookie

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    i think if faulk comes back its more out of respect than talent at this point. Woodhead is more talented then faulk at this stage of his career. We still need a pounder though. i love Woodhead, i mean LOVE Woodhead. but i saw him get picked up and thrown around alot last year on contact. we could use a guy that gets yards on his own, can make people miss and break tackles. Ingram???...a man can dream...
  24. townes

    townes Rookie

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    This makes no sense. Faulk and Woodhead are the 3rd down backs for the foreseeable future, and while picking up another after 2011 to replace Faulk and cover the role with Woodhead makes sense moving GReen-Ellis into it doesn't. I can see bringing in a power back and a speedster to fill out RB and replace Morris and taylor but changing obvious roles doesn't make much sense to me.
  25. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's definitely a better term to fit the reality of modern offenses, but I think "3rd-down-back" is typically taken to mean that role. (You still call a safety a safety even when he's blitzing, right?)
  26. jays52

    jays52 Rookie

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    It should also be noted that Woodhead is a pretty damn good zone back. He's got very good plant and burst ability and cuts quite well. He's a different player than Faulk who is more of a footwork guy. Woodhead is a small slasher. Different games.
  27. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    Is Tate anything more than a Kick Returner?

    If he does not have a year two leap this year, I almost think he becomes a career ST Kick Returner.
  28. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    The only guy the Pats have had during BB's tenure who put up better KR stats than Tate did this season was Ellis Hobbs (for one season).

    In terms of receiving (I posted the stats in another thread), Tate's one-year production nearly surpassed the THREE-year total production of Bethel Johnson and Tate caught a better % of his targets.

    So, y'know, not shabby for a "rookie" 3rd-rounder who had been effectively out of football for nearly two years.
  29. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

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    Yup!!

    Yup, Yup!!

    Yup, Yup, Yup!!

    Yup.

    That 36 Yard BLAST against Indy was a CLASSIC CutBack Run. :cool:

    I saw Danny WoodHead coming a MILE away, and I was NOT alone, on that.

    Those who're consumed with the notion that you have to draft a Back in the first 2 or 3 rounds to get a major impact player...are ~ respectfully submitted ~ deluding themselves BADLY.

    Danny WoodHead's got some Magic...And there's every reason to think he'll be an integral part of MULTIPLE Championship Drives.
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