Do you buy into the narrative of Joe Montana's "unblemished Super Bowl record" vs. Brady?

[rochrist]

Now you are disagreeing with facts? He averaged over 4.0 as a rookie and then never did again his entire career.

Where are you getting your stats from? I see him averaging 4.3 yards as a rookie, then 4.0 in 2001 and 2005.

Note I don't have a dog in this fight otherwise!

 

[Ring 6]

Where are you getting your stats from? I see him averaging 4.3 yards as a rookie, then 4.0 in 2001 and 2005.

Note I don't have a dog in this fight otherwise!

Those are my stats also. Where do you see more than one season better than 4.0?

 

[primetime]

Since we're talking about yards per carry, my hobby horse is that, in addition to a mean (i.e. total yards over total carries), the NFL should also report a median yards per carry (i.e. the 50th percentile of gains). This would help smooth some of the outliers of very long or goal line/short yardage runs, for instance, that get factored into the mean. You would, of course, take them together for a better picture of an NFL running back.

 

[Ring 6]

Since we're talking about yards per carry, my hobby horse is that, in addition to a mean (i.e. total yards over total carries), the NFL should also report a median yards per carry (i.e. the 50th percentile of gains). This would help smooth some of the outliers of very long or goal line/short yardage runs, for instance, that get factored into the mean. You would, of course, take them together for a better picture of an NFL running back.

Again we come to why football isn't a good game to judge by statistics.
You could argue long runs are the most important thing for a Rb and you could argue the opposite that the majority of runs are more important than the few big ones.
It also doesn't account for situations, down and distance, score, scheme you are running against, offensive philosophy etc. just like every other stat.
It certainly is true that almost every statistical analysis about football should include "that isn't enough information". This of course also leads to stat lovers bastardizing the game even further with dvoa and crap like that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

246 carries for 1262 yards and a 5.1 ypc is better than anything Antowain Smith ever did.
There is no debate.
1984 Wendell Tyler was far, far, far better than any version of Antowain Smith.
That was the statement that we are discussing, not health, college careers or anything of the sort.

You are correct but one superior year does not mean I would take him over his entire career.

 

[RobertWeathers]

No 4.0 is not good. It is mediocre. 3.9 is worse.

But here you go. I used 200 or more carries in a season since 2001.
343 runners have carried the ball 200 or more times in a season
220 of them averaged 4.1 or better.
only 76 averaged under 3.9

So your idea of 'good' is being worse that 64% of the players, or even better than just 23%?
We have a different idea of good.



You said Smith was better than 1984 Tyler. What does USC and the Rams and how soon after that his career ended have to do with that?
We are talking about who was a better RB, not who accumulated statistics.
Was Antowain Smith better than Gale Sayers?

I never said Smith was better than 84 Tyler. I said I'd rather have Pats Smith over 49ers Tyler because of what he could do in December and January.

Tyler 83-86 13 carries 64 yrds/gm
Smith 01-03 16 carries 61 yrds/gm

We can agree that Tyler is better statistically but I still don't want him to be more workhorse RB in Dec/Jan which is what I originally said.

 

[Ring 6]

You are correct but one superior year does not mean I would take him over his entire career.

That is irrelevant.
You were comparing the SB teams and said you would take smith over 1984 Tyler.

By the way if you look at the entire career it's still not even close. But moreso if you watch them play it's a total nobrainer.
But we were taking about smith vs 1984 Tyler so that's another discussion.

 

[Ring 6]

I never said Smith was better than 84 Tyler. I said I'd rather have Pats Smith over 49ers Tyler because of what he could do in December and January.

Tyler 83-86 13 carries 64 yrds/gm
Smith 01-03 16 carries 61 yrds/gm

We can agree that Tyler is better statistically but I still don't want him to be more workhorse RB in Dec/Jan which is what I originally said.

Dude go back and read what you said.
You said I would rather have a smith than 84 Tyler.

 

[Ring 6]

I never said Smith was better than 84 Tyler. I said I'd rather have Pats Smith over 49ers Tyler because of what he could do in December and January.

Tyler 83-86 13 carries 64 yrds/gm
Smith 01-03 16 carries 61 yrds/gm

We can agree that Tyler is better statistically but I still don't want him to be more workhorse RB in Dec/Jan which is what I originally said.

Interestingly you would prefer to hand the ball off 3 more times and lose 3 yards. That's a novel strategy.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Of course you did. You said Smith was a workhorse and all those carries took a toll on him so his ypc was lower ever though somehow he was better.



If you watched the games you would not say that.

I did say 01 impacted Smith in 02. I said Brady threw 200 times more.


I didn't say Smith was bad, I said he was what he was a JAG.

I never said that.

JAG is back of the roster guy and Smith is not that.

You are comparing him to a guy who ran for 1260 yards at 5.1 a carry and a near Hall of Famer.
You are out of your mind.

Absurd. Wendell Tyler is not even close to a near HoFer. He doesnt have the numbers or the durability.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dude go back and read what you said.
You said I would rather have a smith than 84 Tyler.

yea you are right. I did. I still meant 01 smith over 84 Tyler.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

I love this debate because its crystal clear that it comes down to Montana or Brady

What an awesome situation to be in where everyone has to go back and forth over who's better between these 2 legends when Brady is still actively playing the game

You won't see any arguments asking who's the GOAT, Montana or Manning or anyone else for that matter..

These 2 are clearly the best to ever play and Brady aint done yet son!

 

[RobertWeathers]

Interestingly you would prefer to hand the ball off 3 more times and lose 3 yards. That's a novel strategy.

How many times did we see Weis run Smith on 3rd and <3?

That is the reason why I take Smith over a 5-10 195lb RB who in his last year was cooked while Smith was still running hard vs TN, Indy and CAR in the playoffs.

 

[rochrist]

Those are my stats also. Where do you see more than one season better than 4.0?

Ah. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying he was under 4 except for the one year.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

This of course also leads to stat lovers bastardizing the game even further with dvoa and crap like that.

So instead of your usual "it's stats so it's crap" whining, how about telling us (a) what you think DVOA is (assuming you even understand it in the first place) and what it measures, and (b) why you think it "bastardizes the game" and is "crap like that".

 

[Ring 6]

How many times did we see Weis run Smith on 3rd and <3?

That is the reason why I take Smith over a 5-10 195lb RB who in his last year was cooked while Smith was still running hard vs TN, Indy and CAR in the playoffs.

Tyler ran for more yards on fewer carries. You already admitted his 1984 was better than anything smith ever did so why are you back in this?

 

[Ring 6]

I did say 01 impacted Smith in 02. I said Brady threw 200 times more.


I didn't say Smith was bad, I said he was what he was a JAG.

I never said that.

JAG is back of the roster guy and Smith is not that.




Absurd. Wendell Tyler is not even close to a near HoFer. He doesnt have the numbers or the durability.

Jag is an average player. Smith was as average as it gets as a Rb

 

[RobertWeathers]

Tyler ran for more yards on fewer carries. You already admitted his 1984 was better than anything smith ever did so why are you back in this?

Here is what you said in another post and why I'd take Smith over Taylor.

I don't think Taylor's 1984 was astronomically better than Smiths 2001. Tyler did have a penchant for fumbling (13 times in 1984)....thats a lot of fumbles. The guy wasn't exactly Mr ball security. Meanwhile Smith fumbled once every 100 carries as a Patriot.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Jag is an average player. Smith was as average as it gets as a Rb

Coming from someone who thinks Tyler is borderline HoF player even though Smith has more career yards and TDs but is a JAG makes zero sense

Sayers was a completely different animal.

 

[Ring 6]

Coming from someone who thinks Tyler is borderline HoF player even though Smith has more career yards and TDs is hysterical.

Sayers was a completely different animal.

When did I say Tyler was a borderline hall of famer? Do you really need to make things up to discuss something?

Craig surely was but we both know I didn't say that about Tyler.

Tyler was a very good back probably among the top 7-10 in the league at his time. Smith was average starter at best and probably a few notches below that.