College DE to 3-4 Defense projections

[ctpatsfan77]

I can see the Pats spending 2-3 picks on LBers to improve their youth, especially with Vrabel and Bruschi stepping aside in the next couple of years. I'd love for the Pats to keep Bruschi or Vrabel as a Asst. LB coach, but I don't know how much interest Bruschi has in that. I know that Vrabel does want to coach, I just don't know if its at the pro-level.

IIRC, I believe his dream job is HC of the OSUB.

 

[TheKraftyOne]

barwin looked the part last night.......there weren't many chances to visualize him into the pats scheme, but that's because they were playing against an offense thats does not reflect a pro set.........he looks like he's got vrabel-like outside moves and seems a bit stronger with an inside move......pencil him in for round 2

I didn't think he looked strong enough. I'd rate Herzlich over him but I don't think either will end up being drafted by them.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I didn't think he looked strong enough. I'd rate Herzlich over him but I don't think either will end up being drafted by them.

I think it says a lot that VT did NOT double team or chip Barwin last night, they let the OT take him one on one.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think it says a lot that VT did NOT double team or chip Barwin last night, they let the OT take him one on one.

There were a few chips, but they definitely trusted their OT's to handle him.

 

[Seneschal2]

The latest from Connor Barwin:

"I've talked to some scouts that say we kind of like you better at tight end," Barwin said. "I would really play whatever position. I'm just trying to make plays whether they're on offense or defense."

And this from his coach:

Added Kelly: "All I know is you want him on your team because he's a winner. He blocks punts, catches touchdown passes, leads the league in sacks. The guys in the NFL are smarter than I am. They can figure out where to play him."

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Well, all this means is, he may be more NFL-ready now as a TE (easier transition), and if it's meant to be, he'll spend some time developing his skills as an OLB. In the meantime, he'll earn his roster spot on ST for sure.

BTW, NFLDraftscout has him #32 on their top 64. Don't want him rising too far... :nono:

 

[mayoclinic]

I love Barwin, and thought he looked good last night. He brought constant pressure on the QB, which is something we need as much as outright sacks.

I think Barwin is the perfects Patriots-type player - high IQ, high character, high motor, high upside, extremely versatile. I'm hoping he lasts till one of our second round picks, but it's not impossible that he rises so high that we would have to use #24 if we really want him. Mayo was generally considered a second round pick this time last year, and Mankins a third rounder. I have a feeling Barwin could turn out to be similarly special - the kind of pick you don't regret no matter how high.

 

[TheKraftyOne]

A Utah DE that looked like he might worth taking a look at as a late rounder was Koa Misi although I'm not sure if he's draft eligible. Anyone know? He's in the 6'3 260 range and showed some flashes against Bama. He looks like he has good power and like a possible ILB. He played with a lot of intensity, fought through trash and had a nice burst rushing the Qb. Hard to tell how well he can play in space although he runs well AND...drumroll please...has brains.

 

[DaBruinz]

A Utah DE that looked like he might worth taking a look at as a late rounder was Koa Misi although I'm not sure if he's draft eligible. Anyone know? He's in the 6'3 260 range and showed some flashes against Bama. He looks like he has good power and like a possible ILB. He played with a lot of intensity, fought through trash and had a nice burst rushing the Qb. Hard to tell how well he can play in space although he runs well AND...drumroll please...has brains.

Misi is a junior and would have to let the NFL he plans on declaring.. NFLDraftScout has his as a 7th round/UDFA for the 2010 draft.

What is interesting about Misi is that he's lined up at DT as well as DE for the UTES. This experience could make a transition to ILB easier...

 

[TheKraftyOne]

2009's version of Vernon Gholston...Michael Johnson. Let the Jesters draft him. He's overrated and will have trouble in space and with NFL OTs just like Gholston. IMO of course.

 

[Warren94]

Thank you Krafty. Michael Johnson is over-rated. Hopefully someone takes him.

 

[mayoclinic]

Thank you Krafty. Michael Johnson is over-rated. Hopefully someone takes him.

I'm not a Johnson fan either. Too inconsistent, not enough productivity, and doesn't translate well to 3-4 OLB. I see him as strictly a 4-3 DE. I hope he goes in the first round to someone and pushes a more suitable player down to us.

 

[Metaphors]

2009's version of Vernon Gholston...Michael Johnson. Let the Jesters draft him. He's overrated and will have trouble in space and with NFL OTs just like Gholston. IMO of course.

Couple of points:
- Gholston isn't a "career" bust...he is a first year bust in a Jets system with Jets coaching.
- Gholston is 6'4" and fully filled out at 260. Johnson is 6'7" and "slim" at 260.
- Gholston has always been on the line (offense and defense) with limited linebacker reps in college. Johnson was recruited as a TE and showed the ability to drop (think zone blitz) in coverage this year.
- Gholston never seemed like the brightest bulb on the tree. Johnson seems articulate and thoughtful (hardly objective I know).
- Gholston was picked at #6 overall. Johnson likely will be picked much later.

Johnson is a little more of an unknown since he was pretty much a designated pass rusher until this year. The results this past year were mixed which sets off a red flag for potential motor or effort issues. He definitely needs to get bigger and improve his functional strength (taking on tackles, not rocking the bench press).

Johnson's physical skill set is pretty much ideal for an OLB in the Pats system. His upside being Willie McGinest amped up a notch or two (little bigger, little stronger, little faster). The rest is scouting, evaluation and guesswork. Watch for Johnson at the combine. If he puts on some weight and still runs a solid time, it will reflect well on his preparations. If he tests at linebacker and not just at DE, that will also be a positive for transitioning him.

Besides, you can't teach this:

 

[Warren94]

His hops are over-rated IMO. and it looks like either Notre Dame or Army not the best of competition.

 

[mayoclinic]

The legendary "Mad Stork" Ted Hendricks played LB at 6'7", though I think he only weighed in the 220s, so I suppose there's precedent, but it's certainly rare to have someone 6'7" with the kind of lateral mobility and ability to play in space needed to play 3-4 OLB. I haven't seen enough of Johnson to get a good sense of whether he good actually do this. I still see some team needed a good 4-3 DE jumping on him sooner than a team looking at a 3-4 OLB conversion project.

I'd put Johnson in the same class as Aaron Maybin - someone with intriguing athletic ability and upside who probably needs several years work at the least and involves a fair amount of risk. If he fell to the second round and BB/SP thought he was worth it that would be altogether different.

 

[TheKraftyOne]

I'm not a Johnson fan either. Too inconsistent, not enough productivity, and doesn't translate well to 3-4 OLB. I see him as strictly a 4-3 DE. I hope he goes in the first round to someone and pushes a more suitable player down to us.

What I saw of Johnson against LSU was an athlete in a football uniform and that's what I saw watching Gholston against LSU last year. The Pats need athletes that are football players.

 

[mayoclinic]

Agreed, though what limited film I've seen of Johnson suggests that he has considerably more lateral mobility and ability to change direction than Gholston. I'm still skeptical he could be a 3-4 OLB, but I must admit that the potential of 6-7 Michael Johnson and 6-5 Shawn Crable coming off the edges in 2-3 years rushing the passer with arms up to block passing lanes given their tremendous wing span is appealing. Probably wouldn't pan out, but it is somewhat enticing.

 

[Seneschal2]

Johnson's physical skill set is pretty much ideal for an OLB in the Pats system. His upside being Willie McGinest amped up a notch or two (little bigger, little stronger, little faster).

My comment is not about Johnson, but rather, any reference to McGinest.

Willie had extensive LB experience while at So Cal, both at MLB and OLB. This is in addition to his experience at DE for them. Also, he was a legitimate 6' 5", not over or under. It's also been posted in this draft forum on more than one occasion that he was 270 when he was drafted. This is incorrect. He came out at around 255 and bulked up to 270+.

And something else that bears repeating is the fact that not only was he a Parcells pick, Al Groh (the Virginia HC), was the Pats LB coach when Willie was drafted. Groh was the coach Parcells sent to privately work him out just prior to him being selected.

Just wanted to set the record straight on one of my all-time favorite players.

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Finally, it's easier to find potential pass rushing DE/OLB prospects when we're looking at their ability to rush the QB. But Belichick wants far more than just an edge rusher. The strength to hold the POA vs NFL OTs is crucial when defending the running game. And weight (although important), can be balanced by adequate strength, good hand techniques, and quickness. Add to the mix solid coverage ability, and this is the kind of prospect BB will be seeking.

Sintim is someone most often mentioned, as he does possess most of the qualities that seem to fit. And the fact that he's been Groh coached, would make him a no-brainer as an automatic pick. But that's IF BB wants to address the position early (Sintim is top ranked), and IF BB even likes him at all (Groh doesn't make the Pats picks).

Even though we have several young DE/OLB candidates already on the roster who are still developing, I do believe we may address this position if there appears to be VALUE with the selection. I haven't a clue as to whether or not BB will place a priority need on the position (I'll guess no). But in an effort to stay true to his roster philosophy (read my sig), I choose to keep the door open to ANY and ALL upgrades.

 

[TheKraftyOne]

Agreed, though what limited film I've seen of Johnson suggests that he has considerably more lateral mobility and ability to change direction than Gholston. I'm still skeptical he could be a 3-4 OLB, but I must admit that the potential of 6-7 Michael Johnson and 6-5 Shawn Crable coming off the edges in 2-3 years rushing the passer with arms up to block passing lanes given their tremendous wing span is appealing. Probably wouldn't pan out, but it is somewhat enticing.

In the LSU game Johnson looked like he was on cruise control at times and didn't seem to want to chase the play down, he has a highly questionable motor IMO. He got schooled against the run and when he tried to stunt to the middle he couldn't fight through the trash to get to the Qb. He didn't look strong or tough or like he had good instincts overall. IMO he can be boiled down to the nebulous "maybe it's just college coaching" line and that's a huge red flag.

 

[Metaphors]

In the LSU game Johnson looked like he was on cruise control at times and didn't seem to want to chase the play down, he has a highly questionable motor IMO. He got schooled against the run and when he tried to stunt to the middle he couldn't fight through the trash to get to the Qb. He didn't look strong or tough or like he had good instincts overall. IMO he can be boiled down to the nebulous "maybe it's just college coaching" line and that's a huge red flag.

Saw the same thing in the LSU game...but if you check out the Miami game, he looked great. My point is that if you just look at the physical side of the equation, a 6'7", 260 lb (with room to grow), sub-4.6 speed and ability to jump through the roof is the prototype for a Pats OLB.

That being said, your red flag is still there. However, it is the same red flag put on Dillon and Moss. If Belichick thinks Johnson just needs the right environment and coaching to reach his potential, he has enough intriguing qualities (seems very smart, former TE in high school, etc.) that I don't see how you could pass on him at #23. If Belichick suspects that football may not be overly important to Johnson or that he is unwilling to do the work necessary to reach his potential, then Johnson isn't a viable pick in any round.

I'm a Johnson cheerleader but I can't honestly tell you if he is legit or if he is a slacker. Someone like Sintim is fine but he is 6'3" and probably maxed out at 260. Nothing wrong with that and he may be a stud in the NFL. Just saying that a player with Johnson's measurables doesn't come along very often and so he is definitely worth a look.

 

[VJCPatriot]

His hops are over-rated IMO. and it looks like either Notre Dame or Army not the best of competition.

Does playing against Notre Dame or Army allow you to jump 10 inches higher? Come on, that's pure physical ability. You can't teach that.
That being said, I don't move up for Michael Johnson, but if he drops to #23 would I strongly consider him amongst other candidates? Sure I would.