Breer looks for Collins' stuff, ends up talking Brady

[Rob0729]

Think of it this way:

Since Brady, every single questionable call of this level (Mankins/Moss/etc..., and I'm not posting this to get into the yes/no of whether or not any particular one was a mistake) has been overcome, with one exception. The Seymour move wasn't overcome, and that's the one year that Brady was mortal, because it was his ACL comeback year.

That doesn't mean Brady's infallible, or BB is never right/never wrong. It just means that Brady's the NFL's best deodorant, which is something that shouldn't be controversial to anyone here.

I just find it interesting to see that other GMs around the NFL are acknowledging it.

I don't think Richard Seymour was the missing piece to fix all that was wrong with the Pats in 2009. That was a soft team with a lot of players with questionable motivation and talent.

If you want to kill Belichick for his personnel decisions that year, look at the secondary and LBs not the loss of Seymour. Seymour couldn't overcome a back seven that included an over the hill, unmotivated Shawn Springs, Brandon McGowan, Leigh Bodden, Gary Guyton, Darius Butler, and Pierre Wood. And let's not forget one of the worst trades of the Belichick era for Derrick Burgess. And Adalius Thomas became unmotivated and unproductive too.

If the Pats kept Seymour that year, they were still likely one and done in the playoffs.

 

[Ring 6]

I think if you switched Brady with the QB of any other team, they would get better.
I think if you switched BB with the coach of any other team they would get better.
Its hard to split hairs about which improvement would be greater.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That team, with Jimmy (Garoppolo), no one’s afraid of them. It’s a normal game for you.

Sure, until he beats your brains in 5 or 6 more times. I think this says as much about the stupidity of NFL management as it does anything else.

...and Jimmy was on a trajectory to be deadly but didn't establish himself as a stone-cold killer and lethal when the game is on the line as Tom.

That might be the sentiment.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think Richard Seymour was the missing piece to fix all that was wrong with the Pats in 2009. That was a soft team with a lot of players with questionable motivation and talent.

From my post:

I'm not posting this to get into the yes/no of whether or not any particular one was a mistake

 

[lurker1965]

I swear, at this point it seems to be a monthly swing. At the start of the month, Brady's just a system QB and Belichick is the mastermind who makes it all happen. By the end of the month, the Patriots would be just another team if not for Brady.

You know how it goes:
"Belichick is overrated. It's all Brady."
"Yeah, Brady is the G.O.A.T."
"Actually Brady is overrated. He had Belichick his whole career."

 

[Patjew]

People forget that Belichick had an 11-5 record with Matt Cassel. People discount that achievement because because of a fluke occurrence that happened only one other time in NFL history, 11-5 wasn't good enough to get into the playoffs.

Sure that team probably had no shot of getting to the Super Bowl if they got in and they didn't beat any of the playoff teams they faced (although most were early in the season when the Pats were trying to figure out how to run the offense without Brady), but Cassel was a marginal starter and teams have had easier schedules than the Pats had in 2008 and never gotten close to 11-5.

Yes, Brady gives Belichick the luxury to take risks that other Head Coaches and GMs cannot. But Belichick has shown he can win without any one player including Brady. Maybe not a Super Bowl without Brady, but get into the playoffs.

With Brady that team would have been 14-2 at the worst. They were stacked and they had a cream puff schedule.

 

[Patjew]

Why is it alway either or with Brady and Belichick? I don't remember the same being true of Jordan and Phil Jackson. They are both great and while relying on each other, they make each other better. That should be revered, not picked apart.

As a kid of the 80s-early 90s, I remember those conversations especially since Jordan didn't win anything without Jackson (or Pippen). That being said I completely agree with your point.

 

[BradyFTW!]

People forget that Belichick had an 11-5 record with Matt Cassel. People discount that achievement because because of a fluke occurrence that happened only one other time in NFL history, 11-5 wasn't good enough to get into the playoffs.

Sure that team probably had no shot of getting to the Super Bowl if they got in and they didn't beat any of the playoff teams they faced (although most were early in the season when the Pats were trying to figure out how to run the offense without Brady), but Cassel was a marginal starter and teams have had easier schedules than the Pats had in 2008 and never gotten close to 11-5.

Yes, Brady gives Belichick the luxury to take risks that other Head Coaches and GMs cannot. But Belichick has shown he can win without any one player including Brady. Maybe not a Super Bowl without Brady, but get into the playoffs.

To be clear, the 'fluke' that year was that the entire AFCE played a really easy schedule. That's a huge part of why the Dolphins were able to go from 1-15 to 11-5, as well. So the 11-5 record needs to be taken in that context, as well. I don't think anyone really forgets that, to the contrary it's the #1 argument used to discredit Brady's success.

Belichick deserves a lot of credit for coaching up a talented but limited QB and squeezing out 11 wins against an easy schedule, sure, but I'd be careful about overselling the importance of it at the expense of how much this team needs Brady to be a real contender.

 

[mosi]

People forget that Belichick had an 11-5 record with Matt Cassel. People discount that achievement because because of a fluke occurrence that happened only one other time in NFL history, 11-5 wasn't good enough to get into the playoffs.

Sure that team probably had no shot of getting to the Super Bowl if they got in and they didn't beat any of the playoff teams they faced (although most were early in the season when the Pats were trying to figure out how to run the offense without Brady), but Cassel was a marginal starter and teams have had easier schedules than the Pats had in 2008 and never gotten close to 11-5.

Yes, Brady gives Belichick the luxury to take risks that other Head Coaches and GMs cannot. But Belichick has shown he can win without any one player including Brady. Maybe not a Super Bowl without Brady, but get into the playoffs.

Cassel aslo had Moss and Welker in their prime. Kevin Faulk had his last bit of juice and the defense was OK. They beat the teams you would expect them to beat but lost to everyone else. The game in San Diego was an example of what that team really was. Cassel was an OK QB but nowhere as good as Jimmy G. In that San Diego game, I remember some sideline throws to Moss, where he had a step that Cassel just could not make. You knew that Brady would have gotten it in there but that was beyond what Matt could do.

 

[Jackson 2]

That team, with Jimmy (Garoppolo), no one’s afraid of them. It’s a normal game for you.

Sure, until he beats your brains in 5 or 6 more times. I think this says as much about the stupidity of NFL management as it does anything else.

I've become convinced that the NFL front offices are littered with idiots who would fail miserably in the real world and have been given cushy jobs due to their connections as former players or coaches. Largely a collection of dopes.

 

[mikey m]

Sounds to me that some people still think this is one of multiple bad decisions by BB, that if it works out, will only be because of 12.

Based on how this went down, and the comments that have come out after the fact, I think it's pretty clear why Collins needed to go. Its unfortunate due to his talent and I really don't think he's a bad guy. But he was no longer a good guy to have on this team. He was out there looking to pad his stats to make more money when he leaves us after the season, and there was no chance that would fly on this team that demands complete dedication and preparation to win games which Jamie obviously doesn't care about (possibly an unfortunate side effect from being THE man on an otherwise **** college program). He didn't give a damn about executing his assignment, setting the edge, etc. Those things are crucial to the success of the defense but they don't show up in his stats, and they don't make him as much money as shooting into the backfield for a TFL. His bank account benefits if he grabs a couple tackles in the backfield in exchange for some big plays for the opposition.

Elandon Roberts on the other hand has some physical tools, lacks the prototype size of a Collins, but you couldn't ask for a bigger football addict. I'm very excited to watch High and him as the lb duo going forward.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

I've become convinced that the NFL front offices are littered with idiots who would fail miserably in the real world and have been given cushy jobs due to their connections as former players or coaches. Largely a collection of dopes.

That's crazy talk!

"Hi Bert - thanks for your call and the question about Collins. Look, anything they do, they get the benefit of the doubt because it all works out. But it’s Brady. I get that they won without Brady, but that would be a week-in/week-out team without him. … That team, with Jimmy (Garoppolo), no one’s afraid of them. It’s a normal game for you. With Brady, it’s a championship team every week. At least as long as the league continues to let him get away with scheming to remove air from the footballs."

Not looking to diminish just how talented and important Brady has been in this run, but just sending the reminder that this could be the "rival personnel executive" he's talking to. It could have been Matt Millen. It could be Mike Tannenbaum. Etc.

 

[Jackson 2]

That's crazy talk!

"Hi Bert - thanks for your call and the question about Collins. Look, anything they do, they get the benefit of the doubt because it all works out. But it’s Brady. I get that they won without Brady, but that would be a week-in/week-out team without him. … That team, with Jimmy (Garoppolo), no one’s afraid of them. It’s a normal game for you. With Brady, it’s a championship team every week. At least as long as the league continues to let him get away with scheming to remove air from the footballs."

Not looking to diminish just how talented and important Brady has been in this run, but just sending the reminder that this could be the "rival personnel executive" he's talking to. It could have been Matt Millen. It could be Mike Tannenbaum. Etc.

LOL, literally! Hammer, the pictured moron was the initial individual I had in mind when I posted that opinion.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I don't think Richard Seymour was the missing piece to fix all that was wrong with the Pats in 2009. That was a soft team with a lot of players with questionable motivation and talent.

If you want to kill Belichick for his personnel decisions that year, look at the secondary and LBs not the loss of Seymour. Seymour couldn't overcome a back seven that included an over the hill, unmotivated Shawn Springs, Brandon McGowan, Leigh Bodden, Gary Guyton, Darius Butler, and Pierre Wood. And let's not forget one of the worst trades of the Belichick era for Derrick Burgess. And Adalius Thomas became unmotivated and unproductive too.

If the Pats kept Seymour that year, they were still likely one and done in the playoffs.

Considering that the opening play of the playoff loss was an 80 yard touchdown run right through what would've been Seymour's assignment, I think at a minimum it's reasonable to say that they had a chance to win it all with him and not having him hurt them.

That doesn't mean they were the favorite with him, or would have won with him--personally, I think as soon as Welker went down our title hopes were toast--but it's equally foolish to say it didn't make a significant difference than to say we would've definitely won with him, IMO. The playoffs are always about punching your ticket and hoping the odds work out in your favor, and every good player tilts those odds a little more toward you.

 

[TBR]

T.J. Moe, whose podcast on the Pats was the most revealing thing to have come out in a long time, says that, in his opinion, the Patriots have only two really exceptional players, Brady and Gronk, and that other teams have exceptional players too. What sets the Pats aside is the intensity and professionalism with which they are prepared.

Link in case anyone missed it:

 

[nabwong]

Why is it alway either or with Brady and Belichick? I don't remember the same being true of Jordan and Phil Jackson. They are both great and while relying on each other, they make each other better. That should be revered, not picked apart.

Basketball players don't get hit in the head.

 

[deroc5050]

Its both but dude Brady brings it every game... he is right without Brady they are just like all the other teams. They might get 1 or 2 more wins a year but with Brady its 12+ wins no matter what.

I already said that with Brady, Bill can do whatever he wants and because he has the best QB.. Brady almost won a Super Bowl with Reche Caldwell as his go to receiver... He just wins.

 

[patfanken]

The best part of the article in my opinion is the impact that Brady has on the team simply by being who he is. Bill can coach the team hard, because he can coach Brady hard. Bill can ask a player not to take top dollar, because Brady doesn't take the last dollar. Bill can demand hard work an focus from his players because Brady has the best work ethic on a team of hard workers. Lots of good things happen when your best player has totally bought into the program. But more importantly it doesn't stop at just Brady. Most of the team's best players are also the guys who lead the locker room. McCourty, Gronk, Hightower, Ninko, Edelman, right down to the team's most vocal leader, who is a ST's player.

So when every now and again one of the team's best players goes off the rails like Seymour, Moss, Mankins, and now Collins has, and puts THEIR interests over the team's, BB has let them go. So while I bet no one likes what he did emotionally, the locker room survives because the leadership believes it was done in the best interests of the TEAM.

I think that is one of the great myths of the BB era is that he is a controlling despot that keeps his players on a short leash. But the reality is that it is the PLAYERS who control that locker room. They don't give much to the media because they ALSO believe that nothing good can come of it. They don't give bulletin board material to the opposition, because they have come to believe nothing good can come of it. It's just that the leaders in that locker room have complete faith in BB's ultimate goal and process....even when they might disagree with the decision. Seymour, Mankins, Randy, and now Collins were ALL well liked and respected in that locker room. But the locker room survived (maybe with the exception of 2009)

 

[1960Pats]

Considering that the opening play of the playoff loss was an 80 yard touchdown run right through what would've been Seymour's assignment, I think at a minimum it's reasonable to say that they had a chance to win it all with him and not having him hurt them.

That doesn't mean they were the favorite with him, or would have won with him--personally, I think as soon as Welker went down our title hopes were toast--but it's equally foolish to say it didn't make a significant difference than to say we would've definitely won with him, IMO. The playoffs are always about punching your ticket and hoping the odds work out in your favor, and every good player tilts those odds a little more toward you.

The most annoying part of the Seymour deal to me was the way the draft pick from them dropped. For years they would get at most 4 or 5 wins, then they get Seymour and their record jumps to 8-8 and the pick is in the middle of the round.

 

[JayNM]

4 weeks ago:
- See, they are 3-1 without Brady.
- He is just a system QB
- BB is the real genius, obviously

Now:
- Well, Brady is just too good
- Anyone would win with Brady
-#12 allows BB to do whatever he wants


Which is it people

WHICH IS IT!?