Badger and supafly talk pass rushers.

[bucky]

Compared to having two OLB who are limited with their skill set, like Tully and Nicko? I wouldn't consider a combination of Quinn and Cunningham as a weaknes.. Esp when both players have a greater upside and a lower floor

We can Bring 4 and it doesn't have to be OLB. Could be a combination.. Considering we do so much matching up on offense to exploit a defense. I'm surprised people don't understand we don't have the horses on defense to exploit the opposing teams offense..

Yeah, but exploiting the opposing offense requires players who have multiple skills - guys like Vrabel. Colvin, and Bruschi. I don't know why you bring up TBC and Nink as your starters. If Cunningham is one of your starting OLBs, then you need to compliment him with a guy who's more of a "true" LB - someone who can play in space, cover, blitz, play off the line, etc. Eventually, Cunningham may end up being that guy, but not now. Nink is OK at it, but could certainly be upgraded. TBC is not as bad as he's made out by some, but he can be upgraded too. Problem is I don't think Quinn, A. Smith, Kerrigan, Houston, etc. are upgrades there. I think they're more likely to be upgrades over Cunningham, if at all.

 

[MaineMan]

Compared to having two OLB who are limited with their skill set, like Tully and Nicko? I wouldn't consider a combination of Quinn and Cunningham as a weaknes.. Esp when both players have a greater upside and a lower floor

We can Bring 4 and it doesn't have to be OLB. Could be a combination.. Considering we do so much matching up on offense to exploit a defense. I'm surprised people don't understand we don't have the horses on defense to exploit the opposing teams offense..

"Exploit". Seems to me that an offense/defense can "exploit" their opposite number's inherent/pre-existing weakness, or create a weakness situationally and exploit that.

Also seems to me that defensive philosophies/schemes run between two extremes:
(1) "attack first" - continually try to force big offensive errors that can result in big defensive plays at the risk of allowing big plays against you
(2) "contain" - eliminate the possibility of big plays against you so that even relatively small errors by the opposing offense become magnified over the course of the game in a build-up of bogged-down drives that eventually eliminates the offense's tactical options (such as their running game and play-action), thus creating situations in which low-risk defensive big plays become possible.

Seems to me that most defenses tend toward the "attack first" philosophy, while BB's defense is very close to the second extreme.

The defense didn't contain well at all in 2010, primarily because the D-line was the weakest in BB's tenure. This was due largely to the pre-season injury to Ty Warren, weaker than expected play from "temp" G. Warren and from out-of-position Brace, and then further weakened by other injuries toward the end of the season (compensated for to some extent by offensive production that exploded in the last 5-6 games). IOW, we "didn't have the horses" to make the containment work. We couldn't contain/stop any decent ground game without devoting extra resources to doing so (thus, taking resources away from coverage and pass-rush).

What I "don't understand" is how drafting an attacker, especially sacrificing picks to trade up for one, helps improve the ability to contain.

 

[MaineMan]

Yeah, but exploiting the opposing offense requires players who have multiple skills - guys like Vrabel. Colvin, and Bruschi. I don't know why you bring up TBC and Nink as your starters. If Cunningham is one of your starting OLBs, then you need to compliment him with a guy who's more of a "true" LB - someone who can play in space, cover, blitz, play off the line, etc. Eventually, Cunningham may end up being that guy, but not now. Nink is OK at it, but could certainly be upgraded. TBC is not as bad as he's made out by some, but he can be upgraded too. Problem is I don't think Quinn, A. Smith, Kerrigan, Houston, etc. are upgrades there. I think they're more likely to be upgrades over Cunningham, if at all.

Or, Ninkovich could improve on his 2010 performance just as Vrabel improved on his 2001 performance.

 

[cstjohn17]

"Exploit". Seems to me that an offense/defense can "exploit" their opposite number's inherent/pre-existing weakness, or create a weakness situationally and exploit that.

Also seems to me that defensive philosophies/schemes run between two extremes:
(1) "attack first" - continually try to force big offensive errors that can result in big defensive plays at the risk of allowing big plays against you
(2) "contain" - eliminate the possibility of big plays against you so that even relatively small errors by the opposing offense become magnified over the course of the game in a build-up of bogged-down drives that eventually eliminates the offense's tactical options (such as their running game and play-action), thus creating situations in which low-risk defensive big plays become possible.

Seems to me that most defenses tend toward the "attack first" philosophy, while BB's defense is very close to the second extreme.

The defense didn't contain well at all in 2010, primarily because the D-line was the weakest in BB's tenure. This was due largely to the pre-season injury to Ty Warren, weaker than expected play from "temp" G. Warren and from out-of-position Brace, and then further weakened by other injuries toward the end of the season (compensated for to some extent by offensive production that exploded in the last 5-6 games). IOW, we "didn't have the horses" to make the containment work. We couldn't contain/stop any decent ground game without devoting extra resources to doing so (thus, taking resources away from coverage and pass-rush).

What I "don't understand" is how drafting an attacker, especially sacrificing picks to trade up for one, helps improve the ability to contain.

I disagree, I thought in 2010 they did a great job defending the big play almost to a fault. The Safeties were kept back allowing teams to carve apart the underneath routes. When they did blitz they just couldn't close the deal making them even less likely to blitz in the future. Having a player that can disrupt the QB or heaven forbid produce a sack or tipped ball is exactly what they were missing.

I will look into this further but as of right now I can't think of too many big plays the defense gave up. It was more like death by paper cut because they couldn't stop anyone on 3rd down. The stats back this up, the Patriots 3rd down defense was awful. Since they were in sub packages the majority of the time I would propose that a player (or players) that can help on 3rd downs and passing downs is an area they should focus on improving.

 

[mcsully]

Yeah, but exploiting the opposing offense requires players who have multiple skills - guys like Vrabel. Colvin, and Bruschi. I don't know why you bring up TBC and Nink as your starters. If Cunningham is one of your starting OLBs, then you need to compliment him with a guy who's more of a "true" LB - someone who can play in space, cover, blitz, play off the line, etc. Eventually, Cunningham may end up being that guy, but not now. Nink is OK at it, but could certainly be upgraded. TBC is not as bad as he's made out by some, but he can be upgraded too. Problem is I don't think Quinn, A. Smith, Kerrigan, Houston, etc. are upgrades there. I think they're more likely to be upgrades over Cunningham, if at all.

We have different opinions, I see Quinn and Kerrigan as players who instantly upgrade our def. I'm shocked you don't think either one of those players are an instant upgrade playing opposite of Cunningham.

You mentioned Colvin, he was a one trick pony, Bruschi and Vrabel definitely did a lot of things well.. But my concern is, both players took years to develop their skill set.. Do we want to wait around for that? If you do, you might as well start grooming your next Qb after Brady.. Cause he won't be around to enjoy the fruits of the draft.

 

[mcsully]

"Exploit". Seems to me that an offense/defense can "exploit" their opposite number's inherent/pre-existing weakness, or create a weakness situationally and exploit that.

Also seems to me that defensive philosophies/schemes run between two extremes:
(1) "attack first" - continually try to force big offensive errors that can result in big defensive plays at the risk of allowing big plays against you
(2) "contain" - eliminate the possibility of big plays against you so that even relatively small errors by the opposing offense become magnified over the course of the game in a build-up of bogged-down drives that eventually eliminates the offense's tactical options (such as their running game and play-action), thus creating situations in which low-risk defensive big plays become possible.

Seems to me that most defenses tend toward the "attack first" philosophy, while BB's defense is very close to the second extreme.

The defense didn't contain well at all in 2010, primarily because the D-line was the weakest in BB's tenure. This was due largely to the pre-season injury to Ty Warren, weaker than expected play from "temp" G. Warren and from out-of-position Brace, and then further weakened by other injuries toward the end of the season (compensated for to some extent by offensive production that exploded in the last 5-6 games). IOW, we "didn't have the horses" to make the containment work. We couldn't contain/stop any decent ground game without devoting extra resources to doing so (thus, taking resources away from coverage and pass-rush).

What I "don't understand" is how drafting an attacker, especially sacrificing picks to trade up for one, helps improve the ability to contain.

I guess this is where you miss what we all witnessed from 2001-2005. While we "contained" we had the horses who could actually push the pocket and throw the off the timing of the offense. It's not all about sacks.. Its about getting the Qb checking down or the OC trying to figure out what this defense is about.. BB has played the same style of defense every year.. What makes this year different from the first five? Talent!

We all used to say BB would out scheme the offense and take away the offenses strength.. We can't do that anymore because we don't have the horses to run BB scheme..

Again I am advocating moving up and using all 5 picks to secure Quinn and Jordan/Watts.. I know we need to stop the run and a healthy Warren will help out. But we need to build upon that..

I've said this a few times but I'll try to put it a different way. BB has turned over the roster with 20+ picks the past two years. Great job.. Our needs are few now. Why not target players who would fill the void and use the later picks 3-7 to add depth. We've done well with Rookie Free Agents and late round picks (Elderman)

 

[AzPatsFan]

The bottom line is that we have failed at trying to generate a pass rush for the past 3 years and the end result has been ZERO playoff wins since we won the AFC Championship game 4 years ago. Belichick's strategy in trying to draft effective pass rushers later in the draft has failed miserably as has his strategy of trying to bring in free agents to rush the passer. Nobody is going to argue that Colvin or Adelius Thomas or Derrick Burgess or Junior Seau etc. have been oustanding pass rushers in New England. Look at the final 4 teams last year - Green Bay (Clay Matthews and outstanding pass rush), Chicago Bears (Lance Briggs and outstanding pass rush), Pittsburgh Steelers (Harrison and Woodley and oustanding pass rush), New York Jets (Thomas, Pace, Scott and outstanding pass rush). We do not have any impact players who can rush the passer. This can not be avoided. We have the ammo this year to try to move up to try to get in position to take a talented player who can provide some rush, whether it is a DE or OLB. This is all I am advocating. Enough of the "Value" baloney, we have more than enough picks to move up and take a stud pass rusher, still have a very effective draft with a number of "value" players (including OL in the 2nd round) and still turn some of those picks into future picks. The time is now while Brady is still the best in the business to get a playmaker on defense to complete this team and take a serious run at winning a Super Bowl instead of winning a lot of regular season games and flopping in the playoffs.

Sorry to correct you but the Jets pass rush was worse than ours, and they were playing veterans, not young inexperienced but talented starters.

Cunningham was a rookie, and Ninkovitch was a first year starter. Spikes was a rookie who got better and then got suspended. Both CBs, Mccourty and Arrington, and even Butler were new and first time starters, as was one Safety. The Defensive line was a multitude of injuries, and instability, and yet the Pats Defense was improved over the early season and yielding 17-18 points per game by the end of the season.

I'd say that the pass rush may already be a long ways towards being solved, as the youngsters have been blooded. Of course more help will come in this Draft too.

 

[supafly]

The Defensive line was a multitude of injuries, and instability, and yet the Pats Defense was improved over the early season and yielding 17-18 points per game by the end of the season.

Not to nitpick, but the league leaders gave up about 17 pts a game.

The 2010 Patriots defense gave up 20 pts a game. Regardless, your point is still well taken, as it ended up being a much better job than we could've originally thought, and they played quite better down the stretch.

Edit : Some highlights were 8th overall in pts, and 11th vs. the rushing game. Of course we all know about the turnovers caused, which was huge.

Some lowlights were 25th in yards allowed, and 30th in passing yards allowed. And we all know about the horrible 3rd down conversion rate.

 

[bucky]

We have different opinions, I see Quinn and Kerrigan as players who instantly upgrade our def. I'm shocked you don't think either one of those players are an instant upgrade playing opposite of Cunningham.

You mentioned Colvin, he was a one trick pony, Bruschi and Vrabel definitely did a lot of things well.. But my concern is, both players took years to develop their skill set.. Do we want to wait around for that? If you do, you might as well start grooming your next Qb after Brady.. Cause he won't be around to enjoy the fruits of the draft.

I'm not a fan of either Quinn or Kerrigan. Kerrigan because I don't think he can play OLB. Quinn because I'm not sold on him as an overall football player. WRT Colvin, you're way off base. Colvin was an A+ all-around OLB and was outstanding in coverage before he got hurt.

But the bigger point you make is actually right along the lines of my thinking. I don't want to wait for Cunningham and (fill in the blank conversion project) to become complete OLBs. I'd rather get someone who can already play the position, be it a rookie or a vet.

 

[bucky]

Or, Ninkovich could improve on his 2010 performance just as Vrabel improved on his 2001 performance.

I said it 5 weeks into the season and I'm sticking with my opinion. Ninkovich is a poor man's Vrabel. I don't believe he will ever be as good as Vrabel as an edge setter, tackler, or rushing the passer on 3rd down. But he's a good blitzer, can cover some, and is emerging into an all-around LB. I agree he should continue to improve and definitely provides value as a rotational OLB.

 

[mcsully]

I'm not a fan of either Quinn or Kerrigan. Kerrigan because I don't think he can play OLB. Quinn because I'm not sold on him as an overall football player. WRT Colvin, you're way off base. Colvin was an A+ all-around OLB and was outstanding in coverage before he got hurt.

But the bigger point you make is actually right along the lines of my thinking. I don't want to wait for Cunningham and (fill in the blank conversion project) to become complete OLBs. I'd rather get someone who can already play the position, be it a rookie or a vet.

I didn't watch Colvin in Chicago and he was injuried so early in the year. I never thought to consider him an A plus player. I was not a fan with him against the run or in space (during his time here. ) I will say he was a good player to have opposite of vrabel.

Agree with everything else u said