Badger and supafly talk pass rushers.

[Brady2Welker]

Talent collection doesn't win championships. TEAMS win Championships. You need to realize that Badger. So does Brady2Welker. NO TEAM has top 5 talent at every position. This isn't MADDEN... <snip>

I don't think I've seen one my posts misinterpreted as poorly as you just did.

The point of my post is that its a generally fruitless effort to trade up for a single player on a defense, because a defense is only as strong as the weakest link. My point was showing that Clay Mathews isn't the reason the Packers have a good defense, he's part of it. He has quality players all around him, same with Harrison on Pittsburgh. Exactly why I've staunchly advocated not reaching for a player on defense that isn't a fit. I have even agreed with you that our pick at 17 could easily be an offensive tackle in my draft rant thread, or a defensive end. I admit I would prefer it to be a defensive end because I feel this draft has some good players at that position in the top 20 that will be available for us that are a likely schematic fit. I've been prattling on about how this team needs a defensive end for a long time, if you read what I've said you'd know that.

As for the talent doesn't win Championships thing, that's true. But I think you're seriously undervaluing how talented the Patriots roster was from 2001-2004. Ted Washington, Rodney Harrison, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Ty Law, Asante Samuel, Willie Mac, Tom Brady, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Stephen Neal, Matt Light. If some of those players ring any bells let me know, because they we're all above average or in the elite top 5 of their position at the time. This team needs talent on both sides of the ball, that are schematic fits and team players. If you honestly think that being a 'team player' in a game that ultimately comes down to the physics of leverage renders you some sort of magical advantage, then I wish I could have some of that koolaid.

In case you completely miss the point of my post again, I'll re-summarize it again in bullet form;
-This team needs talent on offense and defense
-They shouldn't reach for this talent, they should take the closest match between the pick value and the player value, regardless of position. If the tackle is rated 15 and he's there at 17 go ahead and take him if he'll be a good player for us
-Reaching for an OLB prospect is a BAD IDEA

 

[mcsully]

You can agree with Badger all you want. That doesn't make you or him right.

BB's board is based on VALUE. That Value takes NEED into consideration already. So saying that you have to blend value with need says you don't understand how BB sets up his board.

The Pats have always considered NEED as part of the value equation. But they also consider Tangibles and intangibles, such as how they feel the player would excel in their coaching style.

Well the fact is we haven't won anything in 3 seasons and this is due to a lack of play makers on defense. Not sure how u can argue that. If we had the defense 07, we would have gone undefeated

I understand how what u r trying to state with coaching players up in their system but at this point in time, we lack talent in the pass rushing department and it needs to b addresses.

Who knows who's right or wrong but my opinion is based around the fact the we haven't won anything since mcginnest left and vrabels talent diminished.

If you could draft Orlando pace or Demarcus ware, who would u take? At this point in time u would have to say ware. Ware would win us more games, it's actually that simple...

Sometimes u need to k.i.s.s

 

[jukes]

just because you have that need doesnt mean you reach for players that arent there. I believe cunningham will be better in year 2 with ty warren and family back.

 

[Badger]

Talent collection doesn't win championships. TEAMS win Championships. You need to realize that Badger. So does Brady2Welker. NO TEAM has top 5 talent at every position. This isn't MADDEN.

Teams are built from the lines out. The Pats have had an issue at RDE since they traded Seymour. Not having someone there that can draw a double means that the O-line gets a favorable match-up.

The Pats need to add someone who can do that, but throwing away picks just to get top "talent" isn't the way to do it. If it was, then teams like the Bengals and Raiders would have a 5-6 SBs.

As it stands right now, there are probably 4 excellent to "ELITE" 3-4 DEs. Unfortunately, because of a lack of top end talent at other positions, those guys are going to go quickly, possibly even by #10. And trading both 1st round picks to move up to 10 or higher, just isn't the way to do it. First, it essentially says that player is worth 2 starters.. And Second, because you've said that player is worth 2 starters, he's going to want to be paid like it.

So, if the Pats stay at 17, then an OT might just be the best VALUE available. And that is how Belichick views things.. What is the best VALUE for the team.

There is a rookie slotting system for the draf. Just because we move up to draft a guy higher in the draft doesn't mean that he will be entitled to a salary outside of where he is slotted. Additionally, the rookie salary cap is going to be much lower under the new CBA. This makes rookies even that much more valuable.

Also, as for the Raiders etc. they obviously don't have Brady and the current talent that we have. They also don't have the coaching we have.

I am not necessarily advocating trading up, but just advocating that we take a DE or OLB who rushes the passer with our top pick. If that means moving up a bit, so be it. Another OL will not push us past the Jets. Our greatest weakness is a glaring weakness. We can not get to the QB without scheming to do so. Haven't been able to do so for 3 years. Haven't won a playoff game in 3 years. The problem with drafting a pass rusher in 2nd round or later usually means you have to be patient and develop that player (ala Cunningham and Slade etc.). We need help rushing the passer next year. Those are simply my feelings and opinion and I recognize that others may feel differently and that is fine. My original post was that it seems silly to be talking about drafting Mark Ingram and an Olineman when our pass rush for the past 3 years has been pathetic and in which we have lost 2 home playoff games the past 2 years.

 

[MaineMan]

I don't think I've seen one my posts misinterpreted as poorly as you just did.

The point of my post is that its a generally fruitless effort to trade up for a single player on a defense, because a defense is only as strong as the weakest link. My point was showing that Clay Mathews isn't the reason the Packers have a good defense, he's part of it. He has quality players all around him, same with Harrison on Pittsburgh. Exactly why I've staunchly advocated not reaching for a player on defense that isn't a fit. I have even agreed with you that our pick at 17 could easily be an offensive tackle in my draft rant thread, or a defensive end. I admit I would prefer it to be a defensive end because I feel this draft has some good players at that position in the top 20 that will be available for us that are a likely schematic fit. I've been prattling on about how this team needs a defensive end for a long time, if you read what I've said you'd know that.

As for the talent doesn't win Championships thing, that's true. But I think you're seriously undervaluing how talented the Patriots roster was from 2001-2004. Ted Washington, Rodney Harrison, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Ty Law, Asante Samuel, Willie Mac, Tom Brady, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Stephen Neal, Matt Light. If some of those players ring any bells let me know, because they we're all above average or in the elite top 5 of their position at the time. This team needs talent on both sides of the ball, that are schematic fits and team players. If you honestly think that being a 'team player' in a game that ultimately comes down to the physics of leverage renders you some sort of magical advantage, then I wish I could have some of that koolaid.

In case you completely miss the point of my post again, I'll re-summarize it again in bullet form;
-This team needs talent on offense and defense
-They shouldn't reach for this talent, they should take the closest match between the pick value and the player value, regardless of position. If the tackle is rated 15 and he's there at 17 go ahead and take him if he'll be a good player for us
-Reaching for an OLB prospect is a BAD IDEA

To beat your point home even harder, none of the guys on your list .....

Ted Washington, Rodney Harrison, Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrabel, Ty Law, Asante Samuel, Willie Mac, Tom Brady, Richard Seymour, Ty Warren, Stephen Neal, Matt Light.

..... were 1st round "reaches" (AFAIK) and many weren't even 1st rounders or anything remotely close to "elite" to begin with - they became elite.

 

[MaineMan]

Excellent post. However, maybe Bill could think outside the box and move up rather than always moving down. We need a play maker, a difference maker, someone who can wreak havoc as a pass rusher. Not only at the DE position, but also at the OLB. Not sure if there is that guy in this draft, but if there is maybe we need to package some of all of these picks stockpiled over the years and move up and grab our guy. It is no coincidence that our best defensive player (Mayo) was picked in the high 1st round. The time is now to get a playmaker pass rusher so we can have a Farrior, Woodley, Timmons type of player, which is undisputedly this team's greatest need. We just can not take an OL just because he is the best available player at our designated spot and then try to get a servicable pass rusher in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Didn't happen with Cunningham last year (I know he is still very young), didn't happen with Crable and likely won't happen again this year.

Nitpicking, but it should be pointed out that BB actually traded DOWN two spots before taking Mayo (the original pick was at #8). Of course, he also traded down TWICE before snagging McCourty.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Nitpicking, but it should be pointed out that BB actually traded DOWN two spots before taking Mayo (the original pick was at #8). Of course, he also traded down TWICE before snagging McCourty.

More nitpicking, the SF pick was #7 (the mighty Jest were at #6 and determined to get Gholston before NE).

 

[VJCPatriot]

If you could draft Orlando pace or Demarcus ware, who would u take? At this point in time u would have to say ware. Ware would win us more games, it's actually that simple...

Sometimes u need to k.i.s.s

If it were that simple. It would be that simple. But it ain't. Who do you identify as the Demarcus Ware of this year's draft? I don't think the anwer is that easy. Is Von Miller really the next Ware or is he the next Gholston? Because gambling 2 picks and missing would hurt the Pats chances a lot more than staying put and taking their chances on getting 2 good players.

 

[mcsully]

If it were that simple. It would be that simple. .

Can't argue taking the risk of trading up if the player doesn't pan out. Of course your not certain the two players you are giving up with pan out either. Of course the law of probability says getting two is better than 1. We'll need to facture in how much influence can 1 player have at a key position compared to two players not at a key position

I think people are over analyzing the problem and the possible solution.

I'd say 8 out 10 people will agree the pass rush was our biggest issue last year, or the next biggest issue. There is a major belief in the community (professional and hobbiest) that the lack of pass rush had a cascading affecting on the secondary

If we rated each position, most people would agree we need a major upgrade in the pass rushing department

Take a second and list 1-10 (10 being the best, 1 being the worst) the two following variables.

1. talent on the roster at a particular position
2. importance of position (qb compared to guard, WR comparedto LB)

and base your listing on base formation, no nickle or dime..

Following this simple reasoning, you should agree OLB and DE lack talent and depth. The players who currently man these positions lack the skills to play all 3 downs and make an impact on 3rd and long.

To me our OL is getting old in the tooth but i don't see any issue with fielding the same unit. Its not like their horrible. As long as we retain Mankins, I feel very comfortable going into the season with what we have. And to be honest, thats the only position of major concern on offense.

We can score with the best of them.. Can we stop the offenses like the best of them? IMHO, no

We have a lot of young talent on this defense.. And we're all hoping year 2 brings some big strides.. But if we bring in another 3-4 players on defense, do you really imagine them beating out the starters from last year? I don't.. I see two major holes in the defense for next year, RDE and OLB.. And having 4 picks in the 1st 60, should allow us to target players and fill those needs.

You need to ask yourself, does a LT put us over the hump and bring us another SB or does a pass rushing OLB or DE?

My answer is OLB or DE..


& to answer you question, I believe Quinn is this years Ware.. Will he be a Ware? I don't know but he has the chance to be a dominating player. Like I said, with how this team is currently constructed, I feel a D. Ware has a bigger impact at the end of the day than an Orlando Pace.

 

[jukes]

The problem is cunningham might be our best pass rusher even if we draft an OLB, because out outside of von miller even if we draft a lb in the 1st round, most of all these guys are conversions and will need to be coached up just as cunningham was. Which is why you can easily grab a linemen or even a wide reciever in that 17 range if one falls, and re-up at 28 or move up some slots and grab that wilkerson or heyward

 

[mcsully]

The problem is cunningham might be our best pass rusher even if we draft an OLB, because out outside of von miller even if we draft a lb in the 1st round, most of all these guys are conversions and will need to be coached up just as cunningham was. Which is why you can easily grab a linemen or even a wide reciever in that 17 range if one falls, and re-up at 28 or move up some slots and grab that wilkerson or heyward

That might be the case with Cunningham but we needa compliment on the other end, a talented on, who can provide pressure from the opposite side

I'm not saying we should stay at our pick and reach with it. I'm advocating moving up for a player who brings that skill set.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well the fact is we haven't won anything in 3 seasons and this is due to a lack of play makers on defense. Not sure how u can argue that. If we had the defense 07, we would have gone undefeated

This is false. Not sure which Patriots team you've been watching, but seriously, you must have missed the 2010 Patriots because they made plenty of plays. In fact, I think it can be argued fairly easily that the OFFENSE is to blame for the 2007 and 2009 play-off failures. I fault neither the offense or the defense for 2008 since Brady was injured.

I understand how what u r trying to state with coaching players up in their system but at this point in time, we lack talent in the pass rushing department and it needs to b addresses.

No. You clearly are missing the point because I said nothing about coaching up players. I clearly said that this is a team sport and not about collecting talent. No where did I say that the Pats didn't need to improve the pass rush. They do. But how they do it is the difference between where I am coming from and what you are touting.

Who knows who's right or wrong but my opinion is based around the fact the we haven't won anything since mcginnest left and vrabels talent diminished.

If you could draft Orlando pace or Demarcus ware, who would u take? At this point in time u would have to say ware. Ware would win us more games, it's actually that simple...

Sometimes u need to k.i.s.s

No, it's not actually that simple. There is no way you can say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that having Demarcus Ware on the Patriots would win them more games. What would win the Pats more games is being able to bring a consistent pass rush from anywhere in the LB corps. They weren't able to do that last year because of the issues with the D-line. It's plainly clear to me that having McCourty, Arrington, Butler, Sanders, Mayo, Spikes, and Chung, the Pats defense is improved in speed. Now they just need experience AND someone who can play RDE at about 75% of the level that Seymour played it at. If they can do that, then this defense will be awesome.

 

[bucky]

That might be the case with Cunningham but we needa compliment on the other end, a talented on, who can provide pressure from the opposite side.

So are you suggesting that we rush 5 guys on every play? Because if we play 2 Cunningham-types at OLB, they're going to get exploited in coverage pretty badly.

 

[mcsully]

This is false. Not sure which Patriots team you've been watching, but seriously, you must have missed the 2010 Patriots because they made plenty of plays. In fact, I think it can be argued fairly easily that the OFFENSE is to blame for the 2007 and 2009 play-off failures. I fault neither the offense or the defense for 2008 since Brady was injured.

U can say No all you want but after reading about the 07 offense being an issue.. I really don't now how to talk to someone who even mentions that offense being an issue.. One of the best of all time

 

[jukes]

We werent the best in that game, in fact our defense kept us in it while brady was getting killed

 

[mcsully]

So are you suggesting that we rush 5 guys on every play? Because if we play 2 Cunningham-types at OLB, they're going to get exploited in coverage pretty badly.

not at all, we can bring 4.. but we were one of the teams that was in the bottom for blitzing

 

[VJCPatriot]

We werent the best in that game, in fact our defense kept us in it while brady was getting killed

I think we lost an OL early in that game. Might have been Neal. The interior got crushed and Brady had no time to throw all day long. The Giants also had perhaps the best pressure DL unit of all time with Strahan, Tuck, Osimenyiora and company.

Even despite all that the Pats had the lead and the game in their pocket if not for one miracle helmet catch followed by a bad defensive playcall leaving Hobbs solo against a 6'5 Plaxico Burress in the endzone. *facepalms* I believe Asante also dropped a potential game-ending interception during that drive. So yeah, it wasn't meant to be.

 

[supafly]

I think we lost an OL early in that game. Might have been Neal. The interior got crushed and Brady had no time to throw all day long. The Giants also had perhaps the best pressure DL unit of all time with Strahan, Tuck, Osimenyiora and company.

Even despite all that the Pats had the lead and the game in their pocket if not for one miracle helmet catch followed by a bad defensive playcall leaving Hobbs solo against a 6'5 Plaxico Burress in the endzone. *facepalms* I believe Asante also dropped a potential game-ending interception during that drive. So yeah, it wasn't meant to be.

Can't...talk..about...it...still (breaks into maniacal tears)

 

[bucky]

not at all, we can bring 4.. but we were one of the teams that was in the bottom for blitzing

So if we bring 4, one of the OLBs has to drop back. And having 2 young OLBs who are being converted actually becomes a weakness.

 

[mcsully]

So if we bring 4, one of the OLBs has to drop back. And having 2 young OLBs who are being converted actually becomes a weakness.

Compared to having two OLB who are limited with their skill set, like Tully and Nicko? I wouldn't consider a combination of Quinn and Cunningham as a weaknes.. Esp when both players have a greater upside and a lower floor

We can Bring 4 and it doesn't have to be OLB. Could be a combination.. Considering we do so much matching up on offense to exploit a defense. I'm surprised people don't understand we don't have the horses on defense to exploit the opposing teams offense..