A look at some rookie kickers ...

[DaBruinz]

it's always about tradeoffs with kickers but this isn't about inventing the ideal kicker, it's about selecting the best possible choice. It sounds like gramatica's more your type of guy. They were smart to bring in gramatica, but IMO they'd rather retain a kid.

AV did not have a great leg, but nobody whined about it because he made kicks. Ideally you'd like to replace him with a guy who was just as good at FGs but could get more touchbacks too -- but let's get realistic. Nobody said field position wasn't important...the choice is great accuracy and a guy you can stick in a gym, or a guy like gramatica with a big leg, suspect clutchness, and a seriously odd personality. connor gets it over the posts...he's made 88% of his figgys -- no, he doesn't kick in snow down there, but that's overrated -- wind is a MUCH bigger determinate and yes, he's dealt with wind.

Why would anyone want to bring in a guy who can't get the ball over the posts?

connor doesn't miss big kicks.

1st off, there were ALWAYS complaints about Adam's kick-offs.

2ndly, If you look at Gramatica prior to his injury in 2003, he was only a half step behind Vinatieri. Gramatica was kicking at 82% before his injury and with an average kickoff of 64.4 yards instead of Adam's kickoffs which have been sliding slowly.

Third, Hughes did NOT complete 88% of his FGs. He completed only 83.5%. (66 of 79).

Fourth, Where do you get that Gramatica has suspect clutchness? The guy has made 11 of 12 FGs he's kicked in the play-offs.

Fifth, reading about Hughes, he struggled making the longer kicks, at least in 2004, where he went just 3-8 on kicks over 40 yards.

I am all for bringing in someone, but I'll be honest, I don't know how much they can do to increase the strength in Hughes leg that VA didn't try to do already.

 

[the taildragger]

1st off, there were ALWAYS complaints about Adam's kick-offs.

2ndly, If you look at Gramatica prior to his injury in 2003, he was only a half step behind Vinatieri. Gramatica was kicking at 82% before his injury and with an average kickoff of 64.4 yards instead of Adam's kickoffs which have been sliding slowly.

Third, Hughes did NOT complete 88% of his FGs. He completed only 83.5%. (66 of 79).

Fourth, Where do you get that Gramatica has suspect clutchness? The guy has made 11 of 12 FGs he' kicked in the play-offs.

Fifth, reading about Hughes, he struggled making the longer kicks, at least in 2004, where he went just 3-8 on kicks over 40 yards.

I am all for bringing in someone, but I'll be honest, I don't know how much they can do to increase the strength in Hughes leg that VA didn't try to do already.

There was indeed an annoying MINORITY who "complained" about AV's leg strength, but obviously BB willing sacrificed that for his accuracy and dependability. 99% of the fans would've been very happy if Adam decided to return regardless of the leg issue, to suggest otherwise is simply revisionist.

Having said that, I do think AV is replaceable, particularly given his high price.

Also, I don't think I was being clear enough on Connor's stats...

As is widely known, he dealt with a new snapper AND holder in 2004 and still put up very respectable numbers. No scout will ignore this.

His career average was 84% -- good luck coming up with a more accurate pro prospect in the entire history of the draft. At South Dakota, Adam Vinatieri went 27-of-53 (51%).

Last year he was 21 of 24 (88%) and as a sophomore he was 23 of 25 (92%) and led the nation…one of his two misses that season was from 52 yards. Anything close to 90% for a season is INSANE...and anything above 80% is damn good too. He was 4-4 last year on kicks between 40-49 yards.

Connor won the '05 music city bowl over the Gophers with a Vinatieri-esque last minute 39 yard kick. He also led the Cavs to a great win over FSU with 4 field goals.

11-of-12 in the playoffs is a phenomenal stat for Gramatica. I'd heard it was over .900 but wasn't aware he'd made so many in his seven playoff appearances. However, as I'm sure you'll agree, playoff kicks do not always mean "clutch" kicks. If you can remember any of those kicks visually then I bow to your knowledge. I'm not putting him in Adam's class just because he has a higher FG% in the playoffs. Just going by Gramatica's most recent season HE WAS FIRED FOR MISSING KICKS THAT COST HIS TEAM GAMES.

If a guy is healthy and gets cut because he sucks, that’s a red flag. I respect your point that he was strong in 2002, but we may have to agree to disagree on this since I'm more hung up on his recent showing. Despite claims that he was still rehabbing, the guy did not get work in 2005 because it was well known he was completely healthy in 2004. He was also not a hot commodity this season, but it was a shrewd move by the Pats IMO nonetheless…competition is always good.

I like Josh Huston too...but Connor's nickname was "mr. perfect" and yes, he can work to improve his leg strength just as Adam did, but he does NOT have a weak leg…it’s NFL caliber, he makes 50 yard FGs. Seely needs to evaluate if we can work with him or not -- if so, it's a no brainer...if not, maybe the OSU guy...or else, the Hamburglar.

 

[tombonneau]

There was indeed an annoying MINORITY who "complained" about AV's leg strength, but obviously BB willing sacrificed that for his accuracy and dependability. 99% of the fans would've been very happy if Adam decided to return regardless of the leg issue, to suggest otherwise is simply revisionist.

Having said that, I do think AV is replaceable, particularly given his high price.

Also, I don't think I was being clear enough on Connor's stats...

As is widely known, he dealt with a new snapper AND holder in 2004 and still put up very respectable numbers. No scout will ignore this.

His career average was 84% -- good luck coming up with a more accurate pro prospect in the entire history of the draft. At South Dakota, Adam Vinatieri went 27-of-53 (51%).

Last year he was 21 of 24 (88%) and as a sophomore he was 23 of 25 (92%) and led the nation…one of his two misses that season was from 52 yards. Anything close to 90% for a season is INSANE...and anything above 80% is damn good too. He was 4-4 last year on kicks between 40-49 yards.

Connor won the '05 music city bowl over the Gophers with a Vinatieri-esque last minute 39 yard kick. He also led the Cavs to a great win over FSU with 4 field goals.

11-of-12 in the playoffs is a phenomenal stat for Gramatica. I'd heard it was over .900 but wasn't aware he'd made so many in his seven playoff appearances. However, as I'm sure you'll agree, playoff kicks do not always mean "clutch" kicks. If you can remember any of those kicks visually then I bow to your knowledge. I'm not putting him in Adam's class just because he has a higher FG% in the playoffs. Just going by Gramatica's most recent season HE WAS FIRED FOR MISSING KICKS THAT COST HIS TEAM GAMES.

If a guy is healthy and gets cut because he sucks, that’s a red flag. I respect your point that he was strong in 2002, but we may have to agree to disagree on this since I'm more hung up on his recent showing. Despite claims that he was still rehabbing, the guy did not get work in 2005 because it was well known he was completely healthy in 2004. He was also not a hot commodity this season, but it was a shrewd move by the Pats IMO nonetheless…competition is always good.

I like Josh Huston too...but Connor's nickname was "mr. perfect" and yes, he can work to improve his leg strength just as Adam did, but he does NOT have a weak leg…it’s NFL caliber, he makes 50 yard FGs. Seely needs to evaluate if we can work with him or not -- if so, it's a no brainer...if not, maybe the OSU guy...or else, the Hamburglar.

Good post. You sold me on, Connor.

 

[DaBruinz]

ust going by Gramatica's most recent season HE WAS FIRED FOR MISSING KICKS THAT COST HIS TEAM GAMES.

WOW. You really don't have a clue, do you? Gramatica was missing kicks because he had a torn adductor and torn abdomen muscle. But, I guess you would just totally ignore that FACT.

BTW, Since you missed it. Adam missed kicks that cost the Patriots games also. Case in point. DENVER THIS YEAR.

 

[DaBruinz]

There was indeed an annoying MINORITY who "complained" about AV's leg strength, but obviously BB willing sacrificed that for his accuracy and dependability. 99% of the fans would've been very happy if Adam decided to return regardless of the leg issue, to suggest otherwise is simply revisionist.

Actually, the Minority are the ignorant ones like yourself who think that Adam had good kick-offs. He didn't. There is a vast majority who admitted that Adam was adequate on kick-offs and that's it. And that is fact.

Also, I don't think I was being clear enough on Connor's stats...

As is widely known, he dealt with a new snapper AND holder in 2004 and still put up very respectable numbers. No scout will ignore this.

His career average was 84% -- good luck coming up with a more accurate pro prospect in the entire history of the draft. At South Dakota, Adam Vinatieri went 27-of-53 (51%).

Last year he was 21 of 24 (88%) and as a sophomore he was 23 of 25 (92%) and led the nation…one of his two misses that season was from 52 yards. Anything close to 90% for a season is INSANE...and anything above 80% is damn good too. He was 4-4 last year on kicks between 40-49 yards.

Connor won the '05 music city bowl over the Gophers with a Vinatieri-esque last minute 39 yard kick. He also led the Cavs to a great win over FSU with 4 field goals.

You've been clear. Clear in the fact that you are so high on this guy you refuse to look at the other part of his game. One that has just as much of an affect on games as his ability to kick FGs.

If a guy is healthy and gets cut because he sucks, that’s a red flag. I respect your point that he was strong in 2002, but we may have to agree to disagree on this since I'm more hung up on his recent showing. Despite claims that he was still rehabbing, the guy did not get work in 2005 because it was well known he was completely healthy in 2004. He was also not a hot commodity this season, but it was a shrewd move by the Pats IMO nonetheless…competition is always good.

His more recent showing? Damn, you're going fault the kick because his injury wasn't diagnosed for 2 years and it affected his kicking ability for those 2 years? BTW, He wasn't COMPLETELY healthy in 2005. Since you missed it, (that seems to be a running theme with you), Gramatica had the surgery at the end of June. He certainly wasn't healthy by the start of the season. That surgery is a 4-6 month rehab.

I like Josh Huston too...but Connor's nickname was "mr. perfect" and yes, he can work to improve his leg strength just as Adam did, but he does NOT have a weak leg…it’s NFL caliber, he makes 50 yard FGs. Seely needs to evaluate if we can work with him or not -- if so, it's a no brainer...if not, maybe the OSU guy...or else, the Hamburglar.

I think that you are in the minority regarding what Connor's nickname was. I've read several articles on him and that's never been used. But, hey, whatever.

 

[the taildragger]

I detect some hostility here, but I appreciate the passion.

I'm not trying to hype AV -- I've taken plenty of heat for arguing that Adam's significance was blown out of proportion. I realize he's missed big kicks -- but he's also a potential Hall of Famer who is generally acknowleged to be the best all-around kicker in history. I'm sure we can agree that he's a pretty good measuring stick.

The best case you made for Gramatica was that he made kicks in the playoffs. If possible, please share the odds of fully recovering from those injuries...i understand he himself says he's recovered, but if you have medical knowledge in this area please enlighten me/us.

The big questions that NE fans have on Gramatica are:
Given that he's now healthy, where was the frenzy to sign this guy?
How did we get him so cheap?
Why would Gruden cut such a great kicker if he was merely rehabbing?

I'm really not the only guy who has reservations on Gramatica, but my post was about Connor, and yes, I'm sold on him (if that makes me delusional then I plead guilty). I do follow college football, and I don't just assume that everyone else does, but you seem to have read up on him. If you're not already convinced he's a young AV in training, you never will be.

The point of my post in this thread was simply to bring to light the potential reasons why BB may be interested in Connor...if he was that convinced of Gramatica this would not be necessary.

Connor's not perfect -- neither was Adam. It's important to be aware of the tradeoffs, but please understand this guy does not have a weak leg -- it's not a huge leg, but that's a sacrifice worth making given his PHENOMENAL ACCURACY and mental toughness.

He will be kicking somewhere for a long time, and as a Pats fan I hope it's with us.

 

[Pats726]

He will be kicking somewhere for a long time, and as a Pats fan I hope it's with us.

Just want to hear more about mental toughness..how many game winners he attempted, made and did not make. The low trajectory is of concern...but maybe he will be the guy. ALl 3 of the top college kickers seem to have downsides...so, we shall see.

 

[DaBruinz]

The big questions that NE fans have on Gramatica are:
Given that he's now healthy, where was the frenzy to sign this guy?
How did we get him so cheap?
Why would Gruden cut such a great kicker if he was merely rehabbing?

Those are questions being raised by yourself. NOT ALL PATS FANS. You certainly don't represent the MAJORITY of fans.

Let's start with your 2nd question 1st. Gruden didn't cut the guy if he was merely rehabbing. You aren't following the timeline of events.

Gramatica got hurt during the 2003 season. It wasn't diagnosed until AFTER the 2004 season. AFTER Gruden had cut Gramatica and after Gramatica's contract was up with the Colts. Gramatica didn't have his SURGERY until late June of 2005. And its not a procedure that you come back from 6-8 weeks later. Yes, Gramatica sat out the 2005 season while he was rehabbing.

There is never a "FRENZY" to sign a kicker. Even a great kicker like Vinatieri. There wasn't a frenzy. Gramatica came cheap because there weren't a lot of teams looking for kickers to begin with. There is almost ALWAYS more kickers available than there are jobs. Its about Supply and Demand and the Value that the supply has.

 

[the taildragger]

Just want to hear more about mental toughness..how many game winners he attempted, made and did not make. The low trajectory is of concern...but maybe he will be the guy. ALl 3 of the top college kickers seem to have downsides...so, we shall see.

other than the bowl winning kick, he's had numerous game winners and other clutch kicks. To do that justice will take time I may yet find later on. Suffice it to say for now, Cavs fans worship him like we did with AV...A friend of mine who's watched every one of his games can't remember him missing a kick they needed. I haven't seen him miss in the handful of games I've seen either.

I understand the trajectory concern. That's always an issue in the NFL, but blocked FGs weren't an issue in college or else he wouldn't have made 93% of his kicks as a sophomore and 88% as a senior.

I've never met the guy but just from watching him on TV he definitely reminds me of AV. I like Josh Huston too, but there's not as much to go on there (one season and his leg isn't much bigger). CH is pretty much the most accurate kicker in college history so for me it would be hard to pass on him for Huston.

I would argue that accuracy actually has a lot to do with clutchness...Seely can get a good idea on the intangibles -- he's a pretty good scout.

And it's GREAT to have the Hamburglar in there for competition ...heck maybe he is fully recovered and he's as good as Adam ever was, and will ignore all the fan abuse he's going to get. If that's the case then we won't need to waste a 5th or 6th rounder on these guys.

It's all good news...unless you're listening to the media.

 

[the taildragger]

You certainly don't represent the MAJORITY of fans.

What's with all the ad hominem b.s.? I don't recall attacking you. We're both fans of the same damn team...I enjoy a good fight as much as anyone, but this is like getting mauled by a member of the Gramatica family.

I didn't take any straw polls and I'm not running for office. Those just seem to be obvious concerns.

Perhaps the health question isn't 'why was he cut when "rehabbing," but why would he have been cut if he merely needed to rehab...It's just speculation, so please don't blast me for it, but I'm sure we would've given Adam a year off to recover before we canned him -- especially if it reduced his value on the open market.

There was absolutely a frenzy to sign and OVERPAY premium kickers like AV and Longwell and even Vanderchoke...and yet this guy is healthy and was so great once upon a time, and he was the last to go. That concerns me, but perhaps you're right that I'm alone in that concern.

I didn't initially post on this thread to discuss Gramatica -- this is a totally different tangent that is probably more fun for you than it is for me. You might enjoy heading over to the Gramatica thread to duke it out with the MINORITY of fans like me who have concerns about a guy who was the LAST KICKER SIGNED IN FA...even after recently fired kickers like Cundiff.

If you want to discuss any of the rookies, let me know.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'm sure you can sign whoever from the CFL. I would assume. (?) But as far as harsh conditions, don't they almost all play indoors?

Unless something's changed that I'm unaware of, all but two play outdoors in stadiums.

Obviously the Skydome is retractable and I think British Columbia has a dome as well - that's it - all the other kickers are outside - and while the regular season ends before November that's like January weather down here.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Those are questions being raised by yourself. NOT ALL PATS FANS. You certainly don't represent the MAJORITY of fans.

And of course you do. I don't think the vast majority of posters on this board even represent the majority of Pats fans.

Let's start with your 2nd question 1st. Gruden didn't cut the guy if he was merely rehabbing. You aren't following the timeline of events.

Neither apparently are you.

Gramatica got hurt during the 2003 season. It wasn't diagnosed until AFTER the 2004 season. AFTER Gruden had cut Gramatica and after Gramatica's contract was up with the Colts. Gramatica didn't have his SURGERY until late June of 2005. And its not a procedure that you come back from 6-8 weeks later. Yes, Gramatica sat out the 2005 season while he was rehabbing.

Gramatica signed a $12M contract following the 2002 Superbowl season. He had hernia surgery following the 2003 season. Didn't entirely cure what ailed him apparently. Gruden cut him mid way through the 2004 season, and that was a very costly cut for a team in cap trouble at the time, and a sign Gruden possibly didn't believe the problem was plysical. Otherwise why not put him on IR, send him to the best specialists and get Automatica back for 2005 - since he represented a $2M dead cap hit in 2005 anyway. Could have cut him just as easily the following March, unless as I surmise you didn't believe his problems were entirely physical. And all we have is Gramatica's word that it was this undiagnosed double anomoly in his abdomen that led to his continued kicking woes in 2004. Much like we only have Starks word that his shoulder injury was the the worst his doctor had ever seen and the root of ALL his troubles.

There is never a "FRENZY" to sign a kicker. Even a great kicker like Vinatieri. There wasn't a frenzy. Gramatica came cheap because there weren't a lot of teams looking for kickers to begin with. There is almost ALWAYS more kickers available than there are jobs. Its about Supply and Demand and the Value that the supply has.

Except this season demand was up and supply is low - among quality FA and potential NFL caliber college kickers. While the expected frenzy to sign AV didn't appear to develop, there may have been a very logical reason for that that few here want to discuss. Longwell went for big bucks within hours. Adam went for bigger bucks within a week, and within hours of signing with an agent. Vanderjerk went for big bucks for a FG kicker only within days of that. Those were essentially the big three. From here on out for those who dawdled, the options are rather sketchy at best.

I'm sure the truth on Gramatica will eventually come out and it probably lies somewhere in between automatica and suckitude. Hopefully not too far in the latter direction. BB probably thinks it's fifty fifty at this point or he wouldn't have signed him to a split contract at minimum salary and be interviewing a number of college kickers.