3-way trade? Graham/Lelie/Duckett?

[dryheat44]

I agree..I really wasn't convinced about Graham wishing to go to Denver or out west, but the way they talked about it one could read between the lines..he wants to go..and that is all fine...no problem!!! BUT they also thought this trade was not good.. thought the Pats were giving up way too much...and I agree.

I thought everyone pretty much agreed that this trade was simple speculaton by the media based on the circumstancial evidence:

1. Patriots are shallow at WR.
2. Graham is from Colorado.
3. Denver lost Putzier (never mind they drafted an upgrade)
4. Denver always gets good mileage out of retread RBs.
5. Lelie wants out of Denver.
6. Graham is on the last year of his contract.
7. Belichick drafted Thomas and Mills.
8. Atlanta tried to trade Duckett to Denver on draft day. (Denver refused to give a fourth round pick for him)

I mean, first the trade was reported that Atlanta would get Graham. Then when the geniuses remembered Atlanta had Crumpler, they changed it where Denver would get Graham. In which case, there's no reason for Atlanta to be involved: It's a simple trade between Denver and New England. And another transaction to get Duckett if they really want him.

Then I heard reported that the three way trade was with Denver, New Orleans, and Atlanta, with Lelie, Stallworth, and Duckett being the principals, which makes a lot more sense.

Honestly, this is the creation of some reporter or even fan dreaming up trade scenarios to pass time in June.

 

[Pats726]

I thought everyone pretty much agreed that this trade was simple speculaton by the media based on the circumstancial evidence:

I;m not sure it is or it isn't..I think it's a lousy trade for NE...My point about Graham had NOTHING to do with the trade and everything to do with the post 06 season and that Graham would NOT be back after the 06 season.

 

[BelichickFan]

I like Lelie, especially (and I don't know if this is true) if the thing about wanting to be a #1 WR was blown out of proportion. The problem is that making this trade would make us thinner at TE than we currently are at WR (once Branch returns).

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Patriots | Team turned down Denver trade proposal
Thu, 15 Jun 2006 06:09:16 -0700

John Tomase, of the Boston Herald, reports sources said the Denver Broncos approached the New England Patriots about a trade for TE Daniel Graham, but the Patriots said "no thank you."

If Tomase's sources are correct the key phrases here are Denver approached and Patriots said no thank you.

I think BB would take a flyer on Lelie, but not at the price of a starting TE who if he can't be re-signed or they even chose not to resign can be traded for value in 2007 via a tag (transition or franchise) after providing value in 2006.

 

[patsfan13]

Graham is a part of the team core this trade would have been awful. Graham is everything you want in a Pats player, 100% effort does all the little things to contribute, puts doing what the team needs above his own stats.

 

[MrTibbs]

Yeah it's in todays Herald, I posted in another thread.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/pat...ticleid=143808




"FOXBORO - The rumor’s been floating around for more than a week now, and on the surface it makes no sense. Would the Patriots really trade tight end Daniel Graham and draft picks as part of a three-way deal to land disgruntled Broncos wideout Ashley Lelie?

The answer, it turns out, is no. According to a league source, the Broncos approached the Patriots with such a proposal, but the Pats said no thanks."

 

[BelichickFan]

The TE franchise number is only about $3M, very affordable if Graham goes on to have a good season (which he will, even if mostly blocking, if he stays healthy).

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Just want to echo Joesixpats and others:

This is very likely to be Graham's last year with the team. He WILL NOT get even close to his 'open market' value from the Pats, and he probably knows this already.

If he's gonna be gone next year for free, you could try to help the team this year at a position more significant than 'Blocking'.

I don't know if Lelie is the answer, but he will catch more balls next year then Graham with either team! And a draft pick on top of it was the rumor.....

 

[dryheat44]

Just want to echo Joesixpats and others:

This is very likely to be Graham's last year with the team. He WILL NOT get even close to his 'open market' value from the Pats, and he probably knows this already.

If he's gonna be gone next year for free, you could try to help the team this year at a position more significant than 'Blocking'.

I don't know if Lelie is the answer, but he will catch more balls next year then Graham with either team! And a draft pick on top of it was the rumor.....

Assuming there is no way that Graham plays for the Patriots in 2007, then the question becomes "which scenario benefits the Patriots more?"

A: Graham plays for the Patriots this year. He gets signed to a FA contract after the season. The Patriots are awarded a fourth round comp pick.

B: Patriots trade Graham to, let's just say, Denver. Graham doesn't play for the Patriots this year. The Patriots get a third round pick from the Broncos.

I'd rather have Graham for the season and get the lower pick in return. We have a much greater chance to win the Super Bowl with him than without him. Things to keep in mind is that no team is likely going to give more than a third round pick for Graham, given that he is one year away from free agency and will have absolutely no motivation to sign a long-term deal. The Patriots are not going to allow Denver to negotiate an extension with Graham before the trade.

Some seems to think that Graham is a good blocker who catches an occasional pass.

1) Graham is not a good blocker, he's a devastating blocker. Maybe it's the old Tight End in me speaking, but I feel that 65-75% of a tight end's job is to block.
2) In 2003 and 2004, Graham averaged 34 receptions. This is more than "occasional", and is probably in the top half of tight ends in the NFL. Before Light got hurt last year, he was on track for similar numbers.

Graham is very valuable in the passing game, because he can beat linebacker coverage every time. Teams need to cover him with a safety, which takes double/rolled coverage off a WR.

It is very short sighted to claim that Graham can be replaced by another blocking tight end who can catch an occasional pass. Graham is among the fastest tight ends in the NFL (we forget sometimes, because Watson is even faster) and has good hands. If he were in the draft this year he would have been the second TE taken.

Now, if a team calls us and offers a first rounder in a trade, than I'd be very interested. But we'd have to shore up the TE position through free agency. A tandem of Watson and Thomas is a steep downgrade to our running game.

 

[BelichickFan]

Assuming there is no way that Graham plays for the Patriots in 2007, then the question becomes "which scenario benefits the Patriots more?"

A: Graham plays for the Patriots this year. He gets signed to a FA contract after the season. The Patriots are awarded a fourth round comp pick.

B: Patriots trade Graham to, let's just say, Denver. Graham doesn't play for the Patriots this year. The Patriots get a third round pick from the Broncos.

The TE franchise number is only about $3M. Keep him, play him, franchise him, trade him.

We could probably get a #2 pick in 2007 for him + the 2006 season of play. He's still young, reasonably proven and wouldn't command a monster contract from his new team, there's no reason something like that couldn't happen.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Just to say that I agree with your excellent post, DH -- I particularly appreciate your point that we shouldn't forget the compensation picks that come when a FA is signed for a large contract by another team. (This is another reason why I hate the phony "dummy year" contracts that force us to cut players like Willie.)

 

[BelichickFan]

Just to say that I agree with your excellent post, DH -- I particularly appreciate your point that we shouldn't forget the compensation picks that come when a FA is signed for a large contract by another team.

Graham's trade value as a franchised player should be more than the comp pick - just as Givens' was. I still would have franchised and traded Givens too but it would be much easier with Graham as the franchise value is less than half the amount (around $3M vs. around $8M).

 

[Pats726]

Just want to echo Joesixpats and others:

This is very likely to be Graham's last year with the team. He WILL NOT get even close to his 'open market' value from the Pats, and he probably knows this already.

If he's gonna be gone next year for free, you could try to help the team this year at a position more significant than 'Blocking'.

I don't know if Lelie is the answer, but he will catch more balls next year then Graham with either team! And a draft pick on top of it was the rumor.....

A draft pick GOING not coming...Lelie and Graham have different roles...Just don't like the trade...even Lelie for Graham straight up..lelie is NOT that great,,and hasn't an great attitude..

 

[spacecrime]

have you ever heard of someone changing with the environment?

Yes, for players who are not performing up to thier ability.

For players who have severe attitude problems and delusions: Only if he is humbled in the process. Conceited,over-valued guys who get what they want and maintain their own skewed self-image have no reason to change. TO did not change when the NFL bowed to him and reversed his trade to the Ravens. When the Eagles dumped him and wouldn't let him back, now that may help him change. Probably not, but maybe.

Similarly, Terry Glenn didn't do his face-about when the Pats were forced to unload him, because the Pats received value for him and he thought he ws still right. His attitlude changed when Green Bay dumped him and said, "Never mind." The Cowboys was his last chance.

The question for Johnson and Sullivan is: Does either or both feel they have been discarded and this is their last shot? If so, either could shape up. If not, neither will.

When you take a guy that can be great for you or could reamin a total jerk, you don't want to invest much in him. A sixth or seventh round pick or a conditinal fourth or fifth. You don't give up your star TE for a project.

Remember, for every time a change of environment that worked, there are scores that didn't. That's why you don't give up value to get them (along with the fact that they need to be humbled in order to have the drive to change.)

 

[spacecrime]

Graham's trade value as a franchised player should be more than the comp pick - just as Givens' was. I still would have franchised and traded Givens too but it would be much easier with Graham as the franchise value is less than half the amount (around $3M vs. around $8M).

1. Franchising and trading is dangerous for the club. If the player signs the franchise amount, he must be paid thatamount. It would screw up atrade. Givens could have signed the franchise, got $8 mil for playing a year, then left the next year in FA.

2. Players don't like this. The Pats, in spite of their reputatiion for being uncaring, tend not to do it. They could easily have franchised AV, too, but I understand they promised him when they did it the first time they wouldn't do it again. The prmise was non-binding but they gave AV the respect he deserved. Too bad AV didn't give the Pats the respect they deserved (chance to match offer).

 

[World Champs 3X]

Could not of said it any better going to give up the best blocking Te and get Bethal Johnson in return.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

Yes, DryHeat, in addition to these very fine points you've made, we must remember that Ashley Lelie is simply not that good!

He's only respectable on fly patterns which may or may not succeed. And while he has caught a lot more passes than Bethel Johnson, like Johnson it seems the passes he does catch don't turn games around, but rather the the ones he drops are more apt to.

Mike Shanahan is trying to get rid of him. While there a measure of success with the tandem of Plummer to Lelie, that's also one of the things the Broncos are trying to change (i.e., get rid of).

It's not that there isn't much interest around the league in Lelie, it's that there isn't any!

He wants to be #1. Fine. He's had ample opportunity to bump the aging Rod Smith from that spot, but still hasn't shown he can do it. That's one of the reasons Shanahan is trying to dump him. And with Walker looming on the horizon, life is not going to get any easier for Mr. Lelie.

You don't pay #1 money to a #3 (or even #4) receiver.

Attitude-wise, he may not be as bad as TO, but we're not talking vintage Jerry Rice, either. The Pats don't need that.

Getting back to his pass-catching abilities, we just let our #2 walk, who was a very good possession reciever, something Mr. Lelie cannot claim to be. Why would we want this guy? More importantly, why would we give up our starting TE and a draft pick for him?

I can see there are few Vulcans here, because I cannot see the logic in this trade at all!