PostGame Thread 2023 Week 4: Patriots Lose to the Cowboys 38-3 - PostGame Thread

[lancerman]

I agree with everything but the last part.

We need a WR and a QB.

That will solve everything.

QB remains the crucial position in the game and it impacts everything.

The offense was constructed with a t least a mediocre QB in mind. That shouldn't have been too much to ask. It's the least you hope for, and if you don't get it, you're done.

We've taken one shot at WR in the last several drafts and it hasn't worked out. We have to commit more resources this year.

If, say, we had taken Pickens, then suddenly Bourne, Parker, Douglas and even Boutte would look good, and things would open up.

2 players is all it takes.

An average QB is still abysmal on this offense. In fact, let's be real, Mac would probably be average if you place him on a better offense. Just for posterity, Mac is ranked 16 in yards, ranked in a tie at 14 for TD's. 25th in passer rating and 27 in Y/A. On a team with a good offensive line that gives time and a solid number 1 receiver who can get seperation (along with the lack of penalties we get) he's pretty average. You take the average QB's in the league right now and throw them on this team and they are regressing to where Mac is. Only the really good QB's are going to stay in that average range here. Someone like Mahomes who can make something out of nothing. Look at what CIN offense is doing to Joe Burrow right now. You think throwing him on here is going to fix this **** sandwitch? Ain't happening. Needs a lot more work.

The offensive line is also objectively horrible. That's a huge need right now. The pocket collapses instantly and the run blocking sucks. It effects everything. This team is simply not as close as just needing two players.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I don’t care how good of a coach or a GM you are, the fact is you need a good QB and good coach to win games in the NFL.

The narrative that Bill sucks because Brady is gone is absolutely hogwash. Neither of them win 6 SBs without the other and they both have said that plenty of times.

Bill the GM has made some pretty horrible choices with roster construction the last 4 years but his coaching is still the best in the league.

I have no doubt that Bill knows that Mac isn’t the future QB in NE, but as of right now he’s the best chance currently on the roster to win games.

I don't know how you can be watching the games the last 3+ years and think BB is the best coach in the league. Pure DC coordinator, I'll give you that; but the norm has become a team that is unprepared come game time, makes stupid mistakes, turns the ball over, isn't situationally aware, doesn't make half-time adjustments, and finds ways to lose games. These were all things that BB was known for being better than anyone else at during his career.
BB the coach comes with BB the GM and the last 4+ years BB the GM has done more damage than BB the coach is worth. I'm also very skeptical that his style of coaching (as in the locker room buying in, getting FA cheap, etc) will work when you don't have a Brady type leader and you are no longer winning.

 

[upstater1]

An average QB is still abysmal on this offense. In fact, let's be real, Mac would probably be average if you place him on a better offense. Just for posterity, Mac is ranked 16 in yards, ranked in a tie at 14 for TD's. 25th in passer rating and 27 in Y/A. On a team with a good offensive line that gives time and a solid number 1 receiver who can get seperation (along with the lack of penalties we get) he's pretty average. You take the average QB's in the league right now and throw them on this team and they are regressing to where Mac is. Only the really good QB's are going to stay in that average range here. Someone like Mahomes who can make something out of nothing. Look at what CIN offense is doing to Joe Burrow right now. You think throwing him on here is going to fix this **** sandwitch? Ain't happening. Needs a lot more work.

The offensive line is also objectively horrible. That's a huge need right now. The pocket collapses instantly and the run blocking sucks. It effects everything. This team is simply not as close as just needing two players.

I disagree with all of this.

Mac is abominable. He is the same as Zach Wilson. Will sucker you with looking mediocre the way Wilson did against KC, but when the chips are down, he is the guy we saw in Dallas. This O-line is a good OL with plenty of talent on it to compete. When they block properly, Mac doesn't use them. He screws up their blocks and moves right into the rush lanes. It is really ALL on him.

 

[upstater1]

I don't know how you can be watching the games the last 3+ years and think BB is the best coach in the league. Pure DC coordinator, I'll give you that; but the norm has become a team that is unprepared come game time, makes stupid mistakes, turns the ball over, isn't situationally aware, doesn't make half-time adjustments, and finds ways to lose games. These were all things that BB was known for being better than anyone else at during his career.
BB the coach comes with BB the GM and the last 4+ years BB the GM has done more damage than BB the coach is worth. I'm also very skeptical that his style of coaching (as in the locker room buying in, getting FA cheap, etc) will work when you don't have a Brady type leader and you are no longer winning.

What damage has Bill the GM done the last 4 years?

Please tell me.

 

[upstater1]

This is what I wrote about Mac after the Dolphins game 2 weeks ago:

"He's jittery, he's skittish, he's throwing off his back foot. He's taking bad sacks. No wonder he's so inaccurate. His long throws are lollipops that bounce off the moon. There is zero confidence he can get anything done back there.

I gave Mac the benefit of the doubt until now, but you can't have a guy cowering back there and not controlling the game. He is the biggest problem. People will talk about the lack of offensive weapons, but the fact is, the QB controls the game, especially at home, and he doesn't maximize his talents or the meager talents of his WRs.

Bill O'Brien has to see this, but it's Mac's 3rd year and I'm not sure what can be done at this point.

I don't have the patience with him to see if he develops into a Geno Smith maybe 5 years down the line. I don't think he will ever even be a Geno Smith.

The O-line will get better, the continuity will improve, Mac will get more comfortable behind it, but when it's crunch time and the defense sends the house in crucial situations, when the heat turns up, especially against good teams, Mac will not answer the call. The good play we'll see from him in the coming weeks will be a mirage."

And then this is what I said about him after the Jets game:

"I thought Mac Jones had a very good game. Throw to Douglas downfield was absolutely on the money. Stood in the pocket, never panicked. Took care of the ball for the most part, good job.

I don't blame him for the outside throws to Juju and Douglas that Romo criticized. It was clear the Jets had safety help coming and both times our WRs should've curled outside.

Something is wrong with Rham, a little bit slower on his cuts compared to the first half of last season.

I thought Mac did an excellent job of calling the game in what was -- early on and late -- a very loud environment. You could see the Jets move off their attempts to time the snap with blitzes. Mac gave the OL a good chance the neutralize the great Jets front 7."

Like I said, Mac's mirage was the Jets game. That was Mac the impostor. The real Mac is the one in Dallas. How do I know this? Because he was at the Phins game too and he was also at 10 games last year!

 

[lancerman]

I disagree with all of this.

Mac is abominable. He is the same as Zach Wilson. Will sucker you with looking mediocre the way Wilson did against KC, but when the chips are down, he is the guy we saw in Dallas. This O-line is a good OL with plenty of talent on it to compete. When they block properly, Mac doesn't use them. He screws up their blocks and moves right into the rush lanes. It is really ALL on him.

He's not. Aside from offensive line, Zach Wilson is legitimately on a better offense. Garrett Wilson is a 1000 yard receiver, Hardman is probably the epitome of a #2 you could get and Cobb is a serviceable 3. Breece Hall is also one of the premier running backs in the league. Also even if you dig into offensive line advanced stats, what you end up finding out is Zach Wilson causes alot of the sacks himself.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

We need a WR and a QB.

That will solve everything.

dont fully agree with this

Bengals have been horrendous this year and they have an elite QB and 3 elite WRs

 

[amfootball]

It has really been bugging me that Mac was laughing after he got benched.

 

[upstater1]

He's not. Aside from offensive line, Zach Wilson is legitimately on a better offense. Garrett Wilson is a 1000 yard receiver, Hardman is probably the epitome of a #2 you could get and Cobb is a serviceable 3. Breece Hall is also one of the premier running backs in the league. Also even if you dig into offensive line advanced stats, what you end up finding out is Zach Wilson causes alot of the sacks himself.

This sounds like the grass is always greener type of thing. Cobb is on his last legs. I would not trade him for ANY of the Patriots WRs. Hardman has never done anything in this league. How do you have him as the epitome of a #2? 150 catches in 4 seasons with the best QB in the league. He averages 30+ catches. That's not good production, especially on a team that needs WRs like KC does. Breece Hall is not the same RB he was before the ACL but he may come back to who he was, but regardless, we're talking about inept QBs so Hall is irrelevant in this discussion.

You seem to be making my point that inept QBs make everyone around them look bad, including the OL and even excellent WRs like Wilson.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

It has really been bugging me that Mac was laughing after he got benched.

me too, already posted this but nobody cared. this reflects his attitude well imo

I am always pissed if we lose, hell i am pissed if we win but don't play well.

 

[upstater1]

dont fully agree with this

Bengals have been horrendous this year and they have an elite QB and 3 elite WRs

Cincy's D is getting scored upon at will. They are not very good. My point is a competent Patriots QB compliments the talent we already have.

AND Cincy should be a reminder here to those who criticize Belichick for leaving the OL unattended. The top 2 OTs in FA were Brown and McGlinchey and the 2 of them have massive contracts and are primary reasons why their teams' OL is doing pretty badly. I haven't watched Burrow but I know he's hurt; I can't tell the extent to which the injury is bothering him, but if you can't throw off your leg, you will look like Mac when you throw.

 

[Vindicate]

He's young, he played for low major Liberty, he didn't play big time ball, even though Liberty was an excellent team, they played weak competition, they lost to UConn for heaven's sake.

He needs to learn NFL plays--there is nothing surprising about this. Let him get some seasoning. Hopefully it won't take as long as it took Edelman.

I guess that's kinda what I'm saying. Work him in on more basic routes, find a way to get him on the field (with higher snap counts) while he acclimates to the pro level style of offense. I don't actually know if that's a possible thing, I'm not sure if football works like that, but maybe fill him up with short passes so he can YAC all over opposing defenses?

 

[Vindicate]

Cincy's D is getting scored upon at will. They are not very good. My point is a competent Patriots QB compliments the talent we already have.

AND Cincy should be a reminder here to those who criticize Belichick for leaving the OL unattended. The top 2 OTs in FA were Brown and McGlinchey and the 2 of them have massive contracts and are primary reasons why their teams' OL is doing pretty badly. I haven't watched Burrow but I know he's hurt; I can't tell the extent to which the injury is bothering him, but if you can't throw off your leg, you will look like Mac when you throw.

You're both right. Bengals offensive line has been bad, kinda the story since Burrow signed, but Burrows leg injury is making it real bad because he can't move in the pocket. It's affecting everything.

 

[Fatmancryin]

I don't know how you can be watching the games the last 3+ years and think BB is the best coach in the league. Pure DC coordinator, I'll give you that; but the norm has become a team that is unprepared come game time, makes stupid mistakes, turns the ball over, isn't situationally aware, doesn't make half-time adjustments, and finds ways to lose games. These were all things that BB was known for being better than anyone else at during his career.
BB the coach comes with BB the GM and the last 4+ years BB the GM has done more damage than BB the coach is worth. I'm also very skeptical that his style of coaching (as in the locker room buying in, getting FA cheap, etc) will work when you don't have a Brady type leader and you are no longer winning.

Do you honestly think that the Patriots would have won more games the last 4 years if BB wasn’t the coach? Other than this Dallas game and a few others they have been in position to win the majority of them.

As for being prepared.. they definitely weren’t prepared to lose Josh Mcdaniels or prepared to lose some pretty good coaches who either retired or have gone elsewhere and that is definitely on Bill.

Team player leadership has taken a major hit as well.

The old front office approach with FA and veterans and the type of player from what we have seen in the past isn’t working that’s clear. Look at Mac Jones laughing and chumming it up after getting benched. That’s not a coaching issue that’s a player issue and has been with multiple players. They all complained about Patricia and how bad he was.. yet different coordinator same issues if not worse.

I think this coaching staff puts the team and the players in the best position to win every week and it’s on the players to execute and get the job done and that’s not happening that’s the difference from the past and the now.

 

[amfootball]

Do you honestly think that the Patriots would have won more games the last 4 years if BB wasn’t the coach?

Yes. He does not coach offense at all.

 

[Fatmancryin]

Yes. He does not coach offense at all.

So say Mike Mcdaniels could have won more games coaching the Patriots then BB the last 4 years?

 

[thecore762]

What poor draft picks? You're talking about one pick, Tyquan Thornton? Just one? Yes, it was poor. But if that's what you're hanging your hat on, look at the draft. 6 of the 7 WRs taken in the 1st 2 rounds are busts or doing nothing.

If you are looking at just last years draft. I’m talking about the last several years. Nothing but trash drafts on the offensive side of the ball.

Cole Strange - hasn’t been playing well at all
Mac Jones - not playing well at all.
N’Keal Harry - BUST
Sony Michel - didn’t do much
Wynn - been injured

None of these players have amounted to anything for this team.

 

[upstater1]

If you are looking at just last years draft. I’m talking about the last several years. Nothing but trash drafts on the offensive side of the ball.

Cole Strange - hasn’t been playing well at all
Mac Jones - not playing well at all.
N’Keal Harry - BUST
Sony Michel - didn’t do much
Wynn - been injured

None of these players have amounted to anything for this team.

You're going back 7 years? I mean, most of those players from those drafts are out of the league. They've cycled out by now. Go back and look at the 2017 draft league wide. The vast majority of players are gone. And don't go back to the deflategate days when we were penalized picks and/or traded away prime picks for Sanu to assuage Brady.

You wanted them to pass on Mac Jones at #15? Really? And take who to be our QB? I don't think I read anyone advocate for that.

Cole Strange is 18 games into his career and it remains to be seen what he'll become, but I want to know who you would have taken instead of him. I know who the board wanted. They wanted Treylon Burks, Devin Lloyd or Kaiir Elam. Well, all those picks are BUSTS.

But you may have your own ideas about who we should've taken other than Strange. I was not a fan of taking a guard that high when we needed other areas addressed, but I've come around to the position that having good guards is a premium desire in the NFL right now.

By the way, of the 4 WRs taken before our 2nd round pick last year, all of them are BUSTS. If we took a WR last year instead of Strange, he would've been a BUST.

2022 is looking like the weakest draft in eons across the NFL. If we end up with solid starters in Jack Jones, Cole Strange, and a top PR/slot guy in Marcus Jones, we would have done at least average in that draft.

I'm not saying there's no room for criticism (Tyquan) but I already mentioned him.

 

[captain stone]

Btw lost in all the Mac Jones debate is how bad the running game has been this year.

This offensive Line sucks run-blocking, especially for 4 fat dudes... and Stevenson isn't making the necessary adjustments.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

What damage has Bill the GM done the last 4 years?

Please tell me.

People have been telling you. All the time. You’ve chosen to argue and deflect and defend BB at all costs.

Now that you want answers, no one wants to explain it to you again.