2017 Practice Squad (and visits & workouts)

[maineman209]

I've heard this before, maybe from you, and I buy it. It's just frustrating to watch in the preseason and I acknowledge that it's not about making the preseason fun to watch. Also, when the player who sucks just happens to be the son of someone known to be tight with BB...

The jokes come easy.

The following is what I've observed about how the Pats have used their PS over the years under BB. Other teams may or may not use their PS a bit differently, perhaps with more emphasis on potential development.

Most of the guys who are on the Pats PS seem to be there for scout team purposes only. That's their job and they don't really need to be able to develop beyond that (bonus if they do). IOW, they don't really need to be adequate positional players at the "varsity level", and they're most often not. They just need to be able to play a role mimicking players from the upcoming opponent, roles that often change from week-to-week (mostly for skill position players). They also need to be guys who the coaches get along with - and the active-roster players, too, since they use the same locker room. Some of those guys become relatively permanent PS "fixtures", returning to the PS for as many seasons as they're eligible to (e.g., Ventrone, Chris Barker).

This applies to most of the players on the Pats PS for most of the season. However, the use of some PS spots changes as the season progresses.

During cutdowns, one or two spots may be used to stash players who were destined for the active roster from the get-go - temporarily until other roster moves can be completed (e.g., Karras this season). Also, during the first week or two, there's often some churn as the Pats establish the base scout team that they want to work with for the bulk of the season, though they'll continue to pick up guys who become available as the season goes along in order to cover specific positional roles (e.g. Will Tye).

During the bulk of the season, from mid/late September through about now (early December), there's usually some churn involving up to half the PS spots, though typically about half the PS guys remain more or less permanent PS fixtures for the entire season (e.g., Cody Hollister, David Jones, Damarius Travis, Ferentz, Ryan Lewis, Riley McCarron). But that doesn't necessarily mean that any of these guys are being "developed" to eventually graduate to the varsity. For instance, it maybe says something about Jones and Travis that the Pats chose to poach "brand new" Nic Grigsby off the Ravens PS to take Ebner's ST spot (for at least three games) rather than promote one of them, even though they've been working with the team for seven months.

There are often new guys brought in for just a week or so. Sometimes it's an "extended tryout", but often it's to acquire a guy who can mimic a specific player from the next opponent or two (e.g., Kumerow). Once that job is done, they're waived and often replaced with a guy who was on the PS earlier, if he's still available (e.g., Wiltz, Purcell, Jason King), to resume his regular scout team role.

There's sometimes a guy or two who will be promoted to the active roster as a temporary special teams fill-in for a game or two, then waived back to the PS (e.g., Ventrone, Grissom). Again, this doesn't necessaily mean that the guy is a potential permanent graduate.

Sometimes they'll use a spot as a temporary way station for a guy who they specifically bring in for the 53-man in order to get him under contract until they can make the transaction that opens an active roster spot for him (e.g., Reilly, Reedy).

Beginning in December, the Pats will often sign a guy or two to the PS who they may be interested in having on the 90-man roster at the start of the following season under a futures contract, partly to assure a base of positional depth on which to begin building that season's final roster. Hardison may be one of those guys. Ryan Lewis may have been an early-season pickup in that regard, since they're paying him so much extra. That may have also applied to Blackson and Foster (before they were poached), though either of those guys might also have been considered dire-emergency backups.

Anyway, a couple years back, I did a deep dive into the Pats PS roster since BB became HC to try to get a total of the number of players who'd been on the PS at one point or another over the years. I quit when I got to 200. Of those guys, only about 10 have ever graduated to permanent active roster status (a full season or more). So, the all-too-common notion that the majority of Pats PS players are "varsity in waiting" really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

[luuked]

With Gronk's suspension under appeal and the outcome perhaps undecided until after Thursday's practice (Gronk is prohibited from practicing with the team until then, AFAIK), it's possible that Will Tye (PS) could be practicing with the offense #1s this week, in case they need to promote him to take Gronk's open roster spot for the game.

Do you have a source on that?

I know that during suspensions that is the rule but once the appeals process kicks in I dont think it applies (and he can be in the facilities) until the appeal is formally done.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Do you have a source on that?

I know that during suspensions that is the rule but once the appeals process kicks in I dont think it applies (and he can be in the facilities) until the appeal is formally done.

Yea I always thought once a player has formally appealed he is allowed to practice, be at the stadium,etc.

See Brady 2015.

 

[maineman209]

Do you have a source on that?

I know that during suspensions that is the rule but once the appeals process kicks in I dont think it applies (and he can be in the facilities) until the appeal is formally done.

You are correct. My bad.

 

[Mack Herron]

 

[maineman209]

Gronk's appeal was denied.

 

[maineman209]

So, the Pats have an open spot on the active roster through next Tuesday. If the intend to fill it from the PS (e.g., Will Tye) there's no need for them to make the promotion transaction until Saturday since he's already been practicing with the team.

If the Pats intend to bring in an "outside" guy to fill the spot temporarily, they'll make the move ASAP so that the guy can get in a full practice week.

 

[Mack Herron]

So, the Pats have an open spot on the active roster through next Tuesday. If the intend to fill it from the PS (e.g., Will Tye) there's no need for them to make the promotion transaction until Saturday since he's already been practicing with the team.

If the Pats intend to bring in an "outside" guy to fill the spot temporarily, they'll make the move ASAP so that the guy can get in a full practice week.

A new guy would have to leapfrog 6 guys to be in the top 46 to dress, then get released Tuesday. If there were someone available who fit, he would already be here. My guess is we have 1 less to inactivate.

 

[maineman209]

A new guy would have to leapfrog 6 guys to be in the top 46 to dress, then get released Tuesday. If there were someone available who fit, he would already be here. My guess is we have 1 less to inactivate.

Could be that a new guy taking Gronk's temporarily open spot would simply be inactive. But then, there's Lee and Grigsby.

A new guy could "already be here" if he was a PS-eligible SFA who had been signed to the open PS spot Monday or yesterday (the spot that was given to King yesterday). IF they've been considering another poaching, though, that would have needed to wait until the spot opened on the active roster after Gronk's suspension was upheld, since a poached guy must be signed to the active roster directly and kept on it for three games.

So, if we don't hear from the beat reporters about an unknown "new face" appearing on the field for pre-practice warm-ups today, it's very likely that Gronk's open spot will be filled from the PS.

And, I'm not sure that they can leave that spot open. When the PS eligibility rules were changed a couple years back to allow players with more accrued/credited seasons (or the number of games that they'd been on active rosters) to participate on practice squads, there was also a new ruled imposed that required teams to maintain a full 53-man roster every week in order to keep such players on their PS. This rule almost certainly applies to Will Tye (I think); he's been on active rosters for 32 games over 3 seasons.

However, this doesn't mean that the Pats must promote Tye specifically. They could promote anyone from the PS to keep the active roster at 53, even if that player is just going to be inactive for the game. Now that I think about it, they may actually prefer to promote someone who's more likely to clear waivers afterward than Tye might be. Also, unless Tye was active for the game and was an immediate, significant contributor (a la Eric Lee), there would be limited value to keeping him on the active roster after Gronk's suspension expired and, say, waiving Grissom back to the PS instead, since Tye has never contributed much on ST (something like 60 total ST snaps over 32 games active).

 

[maineman209]

Another possibility to temporarily fill Gronk's open roster spot would be to re-sign RJF (Hat Tip to @Miguel for noting that on Twitter).

 

[luuked]

Another possibility to temporarily fill Gronk's open roster spot would be to re-sign RJF (Hat Tip to @Miguel for noting that on Twitter).

Cant wait to see the initial injury report this week. Seems like the week to give KVN off before the Steelers game and hope Reilly is really back.

 

[long distance]

The following is what I've observed about how the Pats have used their PS over the years under BB. Other teams may or may not use their PS a bit differently, perhaps with more emphasis on potential development.

Most of the guys who are on the Pats PS seem to be there for scout team purposes only. That's their job and they don't really need to be able to develop beyond that (bonus if they do). IOW, they don't really need to be adequate positional players at the "varsity level", and they're most often not. They just need to be able to play a role mimicking players from the upcoming opponent, roles that often change from week-to-week (mostly for skill position players). They also need to be guys who the coaches get along with - and the active-roster players, too, since they use the same locker room. Some of those guys become relatively permanent PS "fixtures", returning to the PS for as many seasons as they're eligible to (e.g., Ventrone, Chris Barker).

This applies to most of the players on the Pats PS for most of the season. However, the use of some PS spots changes as the season progresses.

During cutdowns, one or two spots may be used to stash players who were destined for the active roster from the get-go - temporarily until other roster moves can be completed (e.g., Karras this season). Also, during the first week or two, there's often some churn as the Pats establish the base scout team that they want to work with for the bulk of the season, though they'll continue to pick up guys who become available as the season goes along in order to cover specific positional roles (e.g. Will Tye).

During the bulk of the season, from mid/late September through about now (early December), there's usually some churn involving up to half the PS spots, though typically about half the PS guys remain more or less permanent PS fixtures for the entire season (e.g., Cody Hollister, David Jones, Damarius Travis, Ferentz, Ryan Lewis, Riley McCarron). But that doesn't necessarily mean that any of these guys are being "developed" to eventually graduate to the varsity. For instance, it maybe says something about Jones and Travis that the Pats chose to poach "brand new" Nic Grigsby off the Ravens PS to take Ebner's ST spot (for at least three games) rather than promote one of them, even though they've been working with the team for seven months.

There are often new guys brought in for just a week or so. Sometimes it's an "extended tryout", but often it's to acquire a guy who can mimic a specific player from the next opponent or two (e.g., Kumerow). Once that job is done, they're waived and often replaced with a guy who was on the PS earlier, if he's still available (e.g., Wiltz, Purcell, Jason King), to resume his regular scout team role.

There's sometimes a guy or two who will be promoted to the active roster as a temporary special teams fill-in for a game or two, then waived back to the PS (e.g., Ventrone, Grissom). Again, this doesn't necessaily mean that the guy is a potential permanent graduate.

Sometimes they'll use a spot as a temporary way station for a guy who they specifically bring in for the 53-man in order to get him under contract until they can make the transaction that opens an active roster spot for him (e.g., Reilly, Reedy).

Beginning in December, the Pats will often sign a guy or two to the PS who they may be interested in having on the 90-man roster at the start of the following season under a futures contract, partly to assure a base of positional depth on which to begin building that season's final roster. Hardison may be one of those guys. Ryan Lewis may have been an early-season pickup in that regard, since they're paying him so much extra. That may have also applied to Blackson and Foster (before they were poached), though either of those guys might also have been considered dire-emergency backups.

Anyway, a couple years back, I did a deep dive into the Pats PS roster since BB became HC to try to get a total of the number of players who'd been on the PS at one point or another over the years. I quit when I got to 200. Of those guys, only about 10 have ever graduated to permanent active roster status (a full season or more). So, the all-too-common notion that the majority of Pats PS players are "varsity in waiting" really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Appreciate the effort here but it went a bit overboard IMO.

Its really hard to argue they brought Hollister, Travis, D.Jones back to PS for scouting team purposes mostly after they signed them as UDFAs and trained them for 5 months to compete for the final roster. I see them as clear development rookies, and the fact they were bringing other guys to the roster doesn't necessarily have to do with their development. There was simply no need and no place to bring in Travis and D.Jones and no sense to expose them on waivers. While some thought C.Hollister could find his way to the active list due to rec. injuries and his ST abilities it would be then hard to keep him on the roster after injured receivers returned and I believe they wouldn't want to lose him. At least one more guy I see currently as clear development prospect - Ryan Lewis.

Also don't forget they lost quite a few guys they would love to have as back-up roster players or development prospects: Foster, Blackson, Moore, possibly Carr, McDermott and also your favourite O'Shaughnessy. They are all sticking on other teams 53.

They also had to waive some injured guys that otherwise could not return this year where other teams had clear advantage to grab them (and most times they did): Hamilton, Killings, Lucien, Lengel.

Many of the guys they brought to 53 were/are short-term fill-ins and its understandable they went with more experienced guys they don't worry about losing them on waivers.

I think its safer to say that the core of PS is here for development/back-up (the fact that most don't make the team later on doesn't automatically make them mostly scout team guys in hindsight) and the bottom part/revolving door of the PS is more about scout team as you very well pointed out on quite a few such occasions.

Id guess they'd like to have all top back-up & development prospects on PS (and Im sure they would do just as well on scout team) but as listed above it is just not possible. I agree that most OL spots are mostly for scout team purposes and then maybe another spot or two depending on situation/part of season for specific scout team needs.


ps
The most satisfying thing in football coaching & GM-ing (apart from winning) is developing players. Its also a need and biggest part of competitive edge. If you can develop guys like Andrews, Butler, JJ etc on your PS it takes a lot of pressure off your draft capital and gives you so much more flexibility (also in free agency) - and Id guess that beats any scouting team needs by a fair margin..

 

[Mack Herron]

A new guy would have to leapfrog 6 guys to be in the top 46 to dress, then get released Tuesday. If there were someone available who fit, he would already be here. My guess is we have 1 less to inactivate.

Apparently I am wrong here if they must carry 53 to a game which Kyed claims. Can someone confirm? Would be off to sign someone off the street to be inactive and released.

 

[luuked]

The following is what I've observed about how the Pats have used their PS over the years under BB. Other teams may or may not use their PS a bit differently, perhaps with more emphasis on potential development.

Most of the guys who are on the Pats PS seem to be there for scout team purposes only. That's their job and they don't really need to be able to develop beyond that (bonus if they do). IOW, they don't really need to be adequate positional players at the "varsity level", and they're most often not. They just need to be able to play a role mimicking players from the upcoming opponent, roles that often change from week-to-week (mostly for skill position players). They also need to be guys who the coaches get along with - and the active-roster players, too, since they use the same locker room. Some of those guys become relatively permanent PS "fixtures", returning to the PS for as many seasons as they're eligible to (e.g., Ventrone, Chris Barker).

This applies to most of the players on the Pats PS for most of the season. However, the use of some PS spots changes as the season progresses.

During cutdowns, one or two spots may be used to stash players who were destined for the active roster from the get-go - temporarily until other roster moves can be completed (e.g., Karras this season). Also, during the first week or two, there's often some churn as the Pats establish the base scout team that they want to work with for the bulk of the season, though they'll continue to pick up guys who become available as the season goes along in order to cover specific positional roles (e.g. Will Tye).

During the bulk of the season, from mid/late September through about now (early December), there's usually some churn involving up to half the PS spots, though typically about half the PS guys remain more or less permanent PS fixtures for the entire season (e.g., Cody Hollister, David Jones, Damarius Travis, Ferentz, Ryan Lewis, Riley McCarron). But that doesn't necessarily mean that any of these guys are being "developed" to eventually graduate to the varsity. For instance, it maybe says something about Jones and Travis that the Pats chose to poach "brand new" Nic Grigsby off the Ravens PS to take Ebner's ST spot (for at least three games) rather than promote one of them, even though they've been working with the team for seven months.

There are often new guys brought in for just a week or so. Sometimes it's an "extended tryout", but often it's to acquire a guy who can mimic a specific player from the next opponent or two (e.g., Kumerow). Once that job is done, they're waived and often replaced with a guy who was on the PS earlier, if he's still available (e.g., Wiltz, Purcell, Jason King), to resume his regular scout team role.

There's sometimes a guy or two who will be promoted to the active roster as a temporary special teams fill-in for a game or two, then waived back to the PS (e.g., Ventrone, Grissom). Again, this doesn't necessaily mean that the guy is a potential permanent graduate.

Sometimes they'll use a spot as a temporary way station for a guy who they specifically bring in for the 53-man in order to get him under contract until they can make the transaction that opens an active roster spot for him (e.g., Reilly, Reedy).

Beginning in December, the Pats will often sign a guy or two to the PS who they may be interested in having on the 90-man roster at the start of the following season under a futures contract, partly to assure a base of positional depth on which to begin building that season's final roster. Hardison may be one of those guys. Ryan Lewis may have been an early-season pickup in that regard, since they're paying him so much extra. That may have also applied to Blackson and Foster (before they were poached), though either of those guys might also have been considered dire-emergency backups.

Anyway, a couple years back, I did a deep dive into the Pats PS roster since BB became HC to try to get a total of the number of players who'd been on the PS at one point or another over the years. I quit when I got to 200. Of those guys, only about 10 have ever graduated to permanent active roster status (a full season or more). So, the all-too-common notion that the majority of Pats PS players are "varsity in waiting" really doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I cant believe I kinda missed this gem when you originally wrote it. I would say that you pretty much nailed it. Not much to add.

Anyone who thinks the PS is a developmental tool on the Pats is pretty much mistaken except in very rare cases. And in those cases it is usually about STs. Now some players took those ST snaps and when injuries hit the regular defense or offense were able to make some plays and actually transition into real roles but those are the absolute exceptions (e.g. Arrington).

Great writeup..

 

[Sciz]

Apparently I am wrong here if they must carry 53 to a game which Kyed claims. Can someone confirm? Would be off to sign someone off the street to be inactive and released.

There’s a rule that you can’t have third-year players on the practice squad unless the 53 man roster is full. Ferentz, Tye, and the newly-signed Hardison are all third-year players. If it’s not filled with an outside veteran free agent, then it could be as simple as promoting King to be inactive and then cutting him again, since he already cleared waivers this week.

 

[Mack Herron]

 

[Username]

 

[captain stone]

You have to be abso-feckin-lutely ****TING ME.

Un-feckin-believable.

Jonny Freeney WILL cost us a game one of these weeks (like this one, or the next one). He's a complete waste of time & money, and I feel sorry for the tree that had to die in order to create the paper on which his contract was written.

 

[Sfpat]

You have to be abso-feckin-lutely ****TING ME.

Un-feckin-believable.

Jonny Freeney WILL cost us a game one of these weeks (like this one, or the next one). He's a complete waste of time & money, and I feel sorry for the tree that had to die in order to create the paper on which his contract was written.

Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think

 

[jah]

You have to be abso-feckin-lutely ****TING ME.

Un-feckin-believable.

Jonny Freeney WILL cost us a game one of these weeks (like this one, or the next one). He's a complete waste of time & money, and I feel sorry for the tree that had to die in order to create the paper on which his contract was written.

I've never been a Freeny fan, but lol