2014 Draft Needs

[JackBauer]

I have to say, kennyb's completely arbitrary and subjective argument might be one of the worst I've ever seen deployed on this board.

And that's saying something.

 

[Ivan]

That's freakin' ridiculous. Of course the key phrase in the passage is "I think".

What's "ridiculous" about it? Belichick has clearly favored centers who are considered technicians over the more dominant athletic centers, unless you consider Koppen and Wendell dominant athletic centers?

 

[kennyb]

I have to say, kennyb's completely arbitrary and subjective argument might be one of the worst I've ever seen deployed on this board.

And that's saying something.

gotcha. A second round pick who catches quick slants and that's about it and who can't catch in traffic or tries to catch with his elbows, that's a great pick. Very promising.

 

[Ivan]

Draft Scout has just released their first mocks with the actual initial draft order and they have the Patriots taking Louis Nix or Stephen Tuittt, both of whom would be well received in this forum imo. Nix would provide an eventual successor to Wilfork and Tuitt a DL who can play end in the 3-4 and tackle in a 4-3.

 

[Ivan]

gotcha. A second round pick who catches quick slants and that's about it and who can't catch in traffic or tries to catch with his elbows, that's a great pick. Very promising.

What do you expect from a clown like Belichick, he clearly can't draft and their years of failure after failure attest to that. If only the draft experts here could replace him so we would have Calvin Johnson and JJ watt on this team.

 

[JackBauer]

gotcha. A second round pick who catches quick slants and that's about it and who can't catch in traffic or tries to catch with his elbows, that's a great pick. Very promising.

Maybe you should continue to spout absurdities like pining for a guy with 34 receiving yards on the year over a guy with 500+. But we both know had the Patriots drafted Patton, or had Dobson turned in a season performance like Patton, you'd still be here whining, likely at a much higher volume.

Or maybe you can continue to insinuate Dobson is soft, because surely no NFL skill position player has ever aggravated a pre-existing injury on a non/minimal contact play.

 

[Snake Eyes]

What's "ridiculous" about it? Belichick has clearly favored centers who are considered technicians over the more dominant athletic centers, unless you consider Koppen and Wendell dominant athletic centers?

Could it be that BB simply didn’t have the opportunity to upgrade over them given the opportunity cost? In other words, they were good enough relative to the cost of replacing them.

 

[kennyb]

Maybe you should continue to spout absurdities like pining for a guy with 34 receiving yards on the year over a guy with 500+. But we both know had the Patriots drafted Patton, or had Dobson turned in a season performance like Patton, you'd still be here whining, likely at a much higher volume.

Or maybe you can continue to insinuate Dobson is soft, because surely no NFL skill position player has ever aggravated a pre-existing injury on a non/minimal contact play.

Well I'm still hopeful with him. Of course I was hopeful with Bethel Johnson and Chad Jackson, and even Chad OchoStinko. I haven't given up. Just disappointed. Catching those deep sideline passes over the outstretched arms of a db is quite a skill...comes in very handy at times. Maybe he just hasn't had the chances.

 

[kennyb]

Also, assuming they cut Wilfork, Gregory, Soap, etc. and have the 20M alluded to my Miguel...

They still have to sign:
Talib (possibly)
Edelmen (I would assume)
Wendell (possibly)
Fletcher (good chance)

etc.

Or they could let them walk. What do you think the aforementioned would garnish? If you assume they want Talib and that's about 5-6M/year first year cap hit, Edelemen (4M), etc., it doesn't leave a lot of room for a high priced acquisition such as Mack. Rookies still will take some of that 20M cap hit, I would assume.

 

[Ivan]

Could it be that BB simply didn’t have the opportunity to upgrade over them given the opportunity cost? In other words, they were good enough relative to the cost of replacing them.

I doubt it, Belichick had many opportunities to go after centers in both free agency and the draft over the past 10 years and he stuck with Koppen and Wendell instead of going after bigger, more athletic centers. My take has always been that Belichick wants technicians who will call protections etc.. as fast as Brady changes plays, and like the understanding he demands from his receivers that is not an easy task.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I doubt it, Belichick had many opportunities to go after centers in both free agency and the draft over the past 10 years and he stuck with Koppen and Wendell instead of going after bigger, more athletic centers. My take has always been that Belichick wants technicians who will call protections etc.. as fast as Brady changes plays, and like the understanding he demands from his receivers that is not an easy task.

I think you're missing a rather key part of my point, which was the cost of upgrading. BB can take a Center in the draft but to do that he needs to sacrifice a pick that can be used elsewhere.

What is the relative gain to upgrade at Center as opposed to what it would cost to put that money elsewhere? That's going to depend on the value (performance/cost) of your current player as compared to the proposed upgrade.

And yet again, it's not as though being athletic and skilled necessitates that you cannot make the appropriate calls, it's possible to have both.

 

[Ivan]

I think you're missing a rather key part of my point, which was the cost of upgrading. BB can take a Center in the draft but to do that he needs to sacrifice a pick that can be used elsewhere.

What is the relative gain to upgrade at Center as opposed to what it would cost to put that money elsewhere? That's going to depend on the value (performance/cost) of your current player as compared to the proposed upgrade.

And yet again, it's not as though being athletic and skilled necessitates that you cannot make the appropriate calls, it's possible to have both.

That's always the equation regardless of position, and while I agree that a Center can be athletic, dominant, and a great technician that can make all the calls Belichick apparently hasn't gone after one because we have had two smaller but technically proficient center's as the mainstay's for the past decade. Personally I would love to see them bring in a center who can dominate physically I just don't know if Belichick sees that as a need , which was my point from the beginning. We can all sit here and say Center is a need but to this point there is no evidence Belichick sees it the same way, and if anything he seems pretty content with what he has.

 

[BelizePats]

Also, assuming they cut Wilfork, Gregory, Soap, etc. and have the 20M alluded to my Miguel...

They still have to sign:
Talib (possibly)
Edelmen (I would assume)
Wendell (possibly)
Fletcher (good chance)

etc.

Or they could let them walk. What do you think the aforementioned would garnish? If you assume they want Talib and that's about 5-6M/year first year cap hit, Edelemen (4M), etc., it doesn't leave a lot of room for a high priced acquisition such as Mack. Rookies still will take some of that 20M cap hit, I would assume.

Wilfork is not getting cut. There are ways of finding money but that aint one of them.

 

[Off The Grid]

Wilfork is not getting cut.

There are ways of finding money but that ain't one of them.

Yep.

To most of us, that goes without saying.

The term "assuming they cut Wilfork" is at once both offensive and hilarious.

 

[BelizePats]

The dude who wrote that does not seem to have much of an understanding of the team as it is currently constructed and or how it functions.

 

[kennyb]

Yep.

To most of us, that goes without saying.

The term "assuming they cut Wilfork" is at once both offensive and hilarious.

Well I think you're wrong. If he gets his full salary next year I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. Belichick doesn't hold onto people for sentimental reasons let alone pay them an 8 million dollar salary. We'll see.
Nothing "offensive" about that.

 

[kennyb]

The dude who wrote that does not seem to have much of an understanding of the team as it is currently constructed and or how it functions.

You have no clue. If you are proven wrong you need to come back and eat crow. Lots of players don't come back from that surgery at all. I hope he does but Belichick isn't spending 8 million on a hope. If you think he will then you are clueless.

and there's no cap magic to avoid that hit. It can be spread out but that just kicks the can. Learn how the cap works before making a fool of yourself again please.

 

[Off The Grid]

Well I think you're wrong. If he gets his full salary next year I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. Belichick doesn't hold onto people for sentimental reasons let alone pay them an 8 million dollar salary. We'll see.
Nothing "offensive" about that.

I never said he wouldn't be asked to take a Pay Cut, Bro.

Most of us consider that a distinct Possibility.

And it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that if he's asked and he refuses, he might be cut.

But speculating about what might happen and "assuming they cut Wilfork" are 2 entirely different things.

 

[kennyb]

I never said he wouldn't be asked to take a Pay Cut, Bro.

Most of us consider that a distinct Possibility.

And it's perfectly reasonable to speculate that if he's asked and he refuses, he might be cut.

But speculating about what might happen and "assuming they cut Wilfork" are 2 entirely different things.

When I say cut I mean free up his cap space by reducing his salary quite a bit to vet min plus incentives. Moving it to incentives which be nltbe. The effect cap wise would be the same as a cut.

If Wilfork isn't back at 100% or thereabouts he'll be at vet min or close to it or be cut outrightt. He cut milloy and even bernie kosar. He's not paying 8m for Wilfork's "locker room presence" as someone else insisted.

We'll see. Hope he comes back but a 33 year old guy who weighs 350 plus pounds with a ruptured achilles. Not a sure thing.

 

[BelizePats]

There is a huge difference between the words "cut" and "restructure". They do not in any way mean the same thing. Much like Apple and Building do not mean the same thing.


No, the Pats will not be cutting Big Vince. As you have asserted. End of story!
Yes, the Pats may in fact ask Big Vince to restructure. Again though, this is very differnet from being "cut".

Yet I have no clue?