2010 NFL MVP Debate (merged several times)

[SVN]

Re: Mvp

impossible to go 3-1 in 3 games

when brady missed a whole season though, cassell's starting record 10-5? (brady started game 1 and the starting qb gets credit for the w or l, regardless of time played in the game...therefore brady went 1-0 in 2008)


cassell actually went 3-1 and 4-1 a couple stretches that year


so NE proved it's not impossible to win without brady, but that's not to say he isn't the mvp, he is

2008 , the pats played the afc west and nfc west. Iam sure that schedule helped quite a bit.

 

[Wolfpack]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

I think this is just a an overall insecurity that many Pats fans, including myself, have regarding Brady's legacy. In 2007, there were so many haters proclaiming that Moss was the only reason for his success. Brady basically needs to have historic seasons to garner MVP consideration, while Manning just needs to be very good. Come on, if Manning were having Brady's season, this wouldn't even be a question in the media. It would be that Manning is carrying his team and no one else can do what Manning does, and Vick is the clear runner-up. Brady just never gets the true respect he deserves, which is to be the hands-down greatest football player of his generation.

I agree with a lot of what you have written. I think that Patriots fans are, for some reason I don't understand, ridiculously insecure. I constantly see posts in here whining about some award that some non-Patriot got. "oh no, Brady didn't get player of the month! Gronkowski didn't get rookie of the week!! Waaaahhh!!!"

And now we are seeing pre-emptive whining about the not-yet-awarded MVP. People are actually complaining not about the fact that Brady is losing in that meaningless category, but rather that it's as close as it is. Some writer actually had the audacity to suggest there could be a reasonable debate.

As for all the Manning haters... Just out of curiosity, what year did Manning win it when he didn't deserve it? Please keep in mind we are talking about the MVP, which is an exclusively regular season award. I think the argument could be made he didn't deserve it in 2008, but I am just not seeing any gross injustices regarding his winning that award.

 

[Wolfpack]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

The Eagles have what, 16 rushing TDs, the Pats 17.
Vick has 8, TFB has 1.
So Vick is a more valuable player because instead of handing off the ball to the running back, he runs it in himself?

Are ya serious? Please tell me you're joking.

Doesn't Vick also have like 9 fumbles to Brady's 3 or something?
I just don't see him being a better choice for MVP than Brady this year.
I do however hope Manning wins it, just because it's a meaningless popularity contest.

So what you're saying is that Vick generates a greater percentage of Philly's offense than Brady does for the Pats. That's a statistic that makes him more worthy of being MVP, not less so.

 

[Sivy]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

well even if vick wins it, that doesnt changed the fact that he got r**** up the ***

 

[PatsChamp88]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

Just give it to Peyton

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

I agree with a lot of what you have written. I think that Patriots fans are, for some reason I don't understand, ridiculously insecure. I constantly see posts in here whining about some award that some non-Patriot got. "oh no, Brady didn't get player of the month! Gronkowski didn't get rookie of the week!! Waaaahhh!!!"

And now we are seeing pre-emptive whining about the not-yet-awarded MVP. People are actually complaining not about the fact that Brady is losing in that meaningless category, but rather that it's as close as it is. Some writer actually had the audacity to suggest there could be a reasonable debate.

As for all the Manning haters... Just out of curiosity, what year did Manning win it when he didn't deserve it? Please keep in mind we are talking about the MVP, which is an exclusively regular season award. I think the argument could be made he didn't deserve it in 2008, but I am just not seeing any gross injustices regarding his winning that award.

Not a Manning hater, just a Manning skeptic. You can't be the best QB of all-time, or in that discussion, with a lone championship (and undeserved MVP) and 9-9 playoff record.

Which awards did Manning not deserve?

2008. Manning was celebrated for his incredible comeback, although it was just for a minor surgery. The Colts went 12-4, exactly as expected, and won some close games without really lighting it up. Manning was surrounded by Wayne, Harrison, Clark, etc., as well as the AFC's 4th ranked defense. The Colts didn't even win their own division and scored an unimpressive 23.6 ppg. Manning finished with a 95.0 QB rating.

Chad Pennington, meanwhile, did not receive any MVP attention. He only threw 75 less passes than Manning, with a bunch of no-name players on offense. He had a higher completion pct.. a higher passer rating, a turnaround from 1-15 to 11-5, and was coming off a MAJOR surgery. Of course, the media twisted this into another Peyton Manning is God vote.

Adrian Peterson ran for 1760 yards and 10 TDs. DeAngelo Williams ran for 1515 yards and 18 TDs.

2009. Manning was deserving of winning the MVP last year, unlike in 2008, but this time there was a player that was more deserving. Drew Brees did nearly the same thing in the leading the Saints to a dominating #1 seed with a 13-0 start. The Colts again had a better defense and Manning again had a much better supporting cast. Among Brees' highlights was a perfect QB rating against the Patriots in a primetime showdown.

Brees had a historic season. He had a 70.6% completion rate (what do you think they'd be saying if Manning did that), a QB rating of 109.6 (compared to Manning's 99.9- not even close), more TDs (34 to 33), FIVE fewer interceptions.

Think about this. In 2009, Manning's season completely pales in comparison to Brady's 2010 season. Brees had an incredible year last season, way ahead of what Vick has done this year. Yet Manning was a runaway winner over Brees, while many are picking Vick over Brady.

There you have it.

 

[Nikolai]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

Yep, how Brees did not have that award last year puzzles the hell out of me. I would say that outside Indiana, it's a pretty common thing for fans to be puzzled about.

 

[Wolfpack]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

Not a Manning hater, just a Manning skeptic. You can't be the best QB of all-time, or in that discussion, with a lone championship (and undeserved MVP) and 9-9 playoff record.

Which awards did Manning not deserve?

2008. Manning was celebrated for his incredible comeback, although it was just for a minor surgery. The Colts went 12-4, exactly as expected, and won some close games without really lighting it up. Manning was surrounded by Wayne, Harrison, Clark, etc., as well as the AFC's 4th ranked defense. The Colts didn't even win their own division and scored an unimpressive 23.6 ppg. Manning finished with a 95.0 QB rating.

Chad Pennington, meanwhile, did not receive any MVP attention. He only threw 75 less passes than Manning, with a bunch of no-name players on offense. He had a higher completion pct.. a higher passer rating, a turnaround from 1-15 to 11-5, and was coming off a MAJOR surgery. Of course, the media twisted this into another Peyton Manning is God vote.

Adrian Peterson ran for 1760 yards and 10 TDs. DeAngelo Williams ran for 1515 yards and 18 TDs.

2009. Manning was deserving of winning the MVP last year, unlike in 2008, but this time there was a player that was more deserving. Drew Brees did nearly the same thing in the leading the Saints to a dominating #1 seed with a 13-0 start. The Colts again had a better defense and Manning again had a much better supporting cast. Among Brees' highlights was a perfect QB rating against the Patriots in a primetime showdown.

Brees had a historic season. He had a 70.6% completion rate (what do you think they'd be saying if Manning did that), a QB rating of 109.6 (compared to Manning's 99.9- not even close), more TDs (34 to 33), FIVE fewer interceptions.

Think about this. In 2009, Manning's season completely pales in comparison to Brady's 2010 season. Brees had an incredible year last season, way ahead of what Vick has done this year. Yet Manning was a runaway winner over Brees, while many are picking Vick over Brady.

There you have it.

You know what? I think you have some very good points. But your post demonstrates perfectly why I don't give a rat's arse about media driven awards. They are voted on by people with their own agendas, biases, prejudices, etc, etc, who oftentimes know less about the sport they cover than a dedicated fan.

I just find it disheartening that an organization like the Patriots, who are so dedicated to the team concept, have fans so obsessed with individual awards. This is the only award I even remotely care about:

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

You know what? I think you have some very good points. But your post demonstrates perfectly why I don't give a rat's arse about media driven awards. They are voted on by people with their own agendas, biases, prejudices, etc, etc, who oftentimes know less about the sport they cover than a dedicated fan.

I just find it disheartening that an organization like the Patriots, who are so dedicated to the team concept, have fans so obsessed with individual awards. This is the only award I even remotely care about:

I'd like to see Brady get his due credit as a huge fan of the team and the realization that we will never see another quarterback like this. In terms of the Lombardi Trophy, I'm of the school of thought that this is not an either/or argument. Simply because no one has won both awards since 1999 is a statistical anomaly (and as mentioned before, Manning is a big reason for this.)

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

You know what? I think you have some very good points. But your post demonstrates perfectly why I don't give a rat's arse about media driven awards. They are voted on by people with their own agendas, biases, prejudices, etc, etc, who oftentimes know less about the sport they cover than a dedicated fan.

I just find it disheartening that an organization like the Patriots, who are so dedicated to the team concept, have fans so obsessed with individual awards. This is the only award I even remotely care about:

We care because they don't. Brady deserves it. Probably deserved it in '01 too because without him there is no way in hell a dynasty even gets off the ground. Maybe part of the problem is they should vote for it in the two week run up to the Superbowl and factor in who at least got their teams there...

The Eagles have won the division 5 times and been to the playoffs 7 times in the last 8 seasons. It had nothing to do with Vick and everything to do with their defense and McPuke's health and availability. This team only missed the playoffs twice in Brady's tenure and the first time was typical letdown coming off a cinderella SB season while the second time was when we lost him for 15.75 weeks... Beyond Brady and Belichick this team bears little resemblance to any of the teams that competed between 2001-2009 - whereas the Eagles are essentially the same cast of characters minus only McPuke - who managed to get them there by and large as has Vick...

Given the absolutely schitzophrenic play of their division rival 2010 Cowboys, Giants and Redskins, Vick hasn't faced the competition Brady has in beating the iron of the AFC. Not sure if Kolb could have QB'd that team to the playoffs, but any competent QB likely could have. Whereas here in NE with a young and inconsistent defense coupled with a largely new and unheralded or rookie skill position group, Brady has flat out carried this team this season emotionally as well as on the field through a giant learning curve executed on the fly...

 

[sevengables_2207]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

You know what? I think you have some very good points. But your post demonstrates perfectly why I don't give a rat's arse about media driven awards. They are voted on by people with their own agendas, biases, prejudices, etc, etc, who oftentimes know less about the sport they cover than a dedicated fan.

I just find it disheartening that an organization like the Patriots, who are so dedicated to the team concept, have fans so obsessed with individual awards. This is the only award I even remotely care about:

I agree with this statement. I have known for a while that Brady is largely underrated and under-appreciated in media circles. Therefore, I was prepared when the Vick for MVP train gained steam, even though I personally feel that Brady is more deserving of the award. And we know that the media/journalism is driven largely by opinion, emotion, and hyperbole over facts, statistics, and data.

Are we really that surprised then, that the more flamboyant and electrifying player, a Fourth of July sparkler if you will, has captured the fancy of the attention-span challenged media over the player who has been performing at a consistently elite level (indeed so elite that he makes it all look too easy)?

 

[SVN]

Baldinger:However you define it, Vick is MVP

NFL.com Blogs Blog Archive However you define it, Vick is MVP

 

[Lansdowne]

Re: Baldinger:However you define it, Vick is MVP

Contrarian article. Ho-hum.

 

[mfaith]

Re: Baldinger:However you define it, Vick is MVP

I like Baldinger but he's off the mark. The Eagles beat the Falcons with Kevin Kolb as QB.

 

[Froob]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

Baldinger just lost a lot of credibility, Vick has carved up the redskins,giants & cowboys. Meanwhile brady destroyed the jets,steelers,and bears ya'know nothing special...

 

[Disco Volante]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

Uh, you're conveniently leaving off all of Vick's rushing statistics. If you factor those in:

Total yards: Brady 3,589 to Vick 3,368
TD's: Brady 32, Vick 28.
INT's: Brady 4, Vick 5.

Yes, Brady leads. But it isn't quite as lopsided as you seem to think - especially considering that Vick accumulated his stats in 3 fewer games.

Bottom line is they are both having stellar seasons, and people in here need to relax. I cannot believe the conniptions we see when someone suggests that gee, maybe the Patriots aren't the best at everything.

What are you talking about? I clearly said (+ Total Yards/TDs), you didn't read the post.

 

[resdubwhite]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

genuinely couldn't give a flying f**k about mvp at this stage. in fact hope vick wins it. Cos if he does and his crowd make the superbowl Brady has a motivational tool to show the eagles and everyone in the NFL who the daddy really is.

I cannot fathom how anyone is not looking at Brady for MVP given the Patriots schedule.

Stupid stupid people.

 

[TB=TD]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

It seems like Vick and Brady are about even, so maybe we need some kind of tiebreaker? As far as stats go, it seems to me a fair tiebreaker is to compare their performances in games against common opponents. Both teams played the NFC North and Indianapolis (the Eagles are still due to play the Vikings, so I will exclude them from this analysis). Against the common opponents Vick has thrown for a 1010 yards with a 63.24% completion percentage, 6 TDs, 1 INT, and an average passer rating of 99.45. He also ran for 258 yards on 38 attempts with 1 rushing TD. Those are solid stats, but the Eagles went 2-2. Now against those same opponents, Brady’s passing stats were: 1059 yards, 70.94 completion percentage, 10 TD, 0 INT, and a passer rating of 126.25. Just for the sake of completion, Brady had 8 rushing attempts for -1 yards and 0 TDs. New England also went 4-0. So Brady’s passing stats are clearly superior, but Vick’s rushing is better (duh!) and he overall had more yards (1268 to 1059) but fewer total TDs (10 vs 7). Overall I think the stats are comparable but the Pats won all the games so I have to give Brady the edge.

 

[deroc5050]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

Brady has played out of his mind this year.. going up against 9 out of the top 10 ranked defenses and putting up amazing numbers. He is doing it with 2 rookie TE's... a borderline reciever in Branch.. a banged up welker...and little danny WH.. But Brady's offensive line however has been above average to great this year.

Before the colossal collapse of the NY Giants.. the talk was Brady already won the MVP. If Tom finishes out the season with decent stats and does not win the MVP he will have been robbed. I get the feeling people want to vote for the dog killer... If all stats were equal Mike Vick would win it. A lot of these journalists are probably subconconsciously envious of TB.. and take what he does for granted. But rooting for a guy that you know is more flawed than yourself gives you a sense of entitlement.... I am probably off base but I just don't get it..

 

[Nikolai]

Re: Vick Stirs Debate in the M.V.P. Vote

I still don't get it. I think this whole thing was a talking point to take up airtime and now its taken on a life of its own. I still think that, as long as things continue as they have, Brady will win handily. I can see most MVP voters, when it comes time to cast their ballot, realizing that it would be insane to vote against Brady.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my hunch.