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OT: Cavs vs. Warriors (Who Wins the NBA Finals?)


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Asking for your support
 

Who Wins the NBA Finals?

  • Cavs

    Votes: 28 26.2%
  • Warriors

    Votes: 79 73.8%

  • Total voters
    107
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I don't think that Russell would have lost much with Wade and Bosh carrying the scoring load

Miami was pretty much a top 5 defense in points allowed w/ Lebron was there and they averaged between 98-102 ppg.

With Russ they would certainly score less but also allow less as any dribble penetration would be met with great vengeance and furious anger. :p

I tend to think Wade and Bosh would score more and Russ would chip in w/ 15-19 a night as he had a decent hook shot a couple of OK moves and would dominate the offensive glass and grab some clean-up points ala Moses Malone.
 
I don't think that Russell would have lost much with Wade and Bosh carrying the scoring load

The team would have been very good. Not sure they would have won more than 2 out of 4 without a playmaker or perimeter defender.

Good on you for not trying to make the argument that he would've made a difference on Lebron's Cleveland teams.
 
Care to explain how Russell is better than Lebron? He shot 44% from the field while being guarded on most nights by 6' 7" white boys. That is a terrible percentage for a post player. Awful. He Couldn't shoot free throws. He was routinely dominated by the one great center he played against. Yes he blocked a lot of shots of those same 6' 7" white boys. Great. How about this--he was a very good defensive center who also happened to be on the best team of his era. Switch him with Wilt and you switch the number of championships.

Stupidest Post I've ever read.

When Bill Russell joined the Celts, we'd won ZERO Championships.

When Bill Russell retired, we'd won ELEVEN.

You don't think he might've had something to do with that? ;)

Russell was on a GREAT, GREAT team that didn't need him to score (which was the weakness in his game). If he had been on the same teams Lebron has found himself on I don't believe he would have won more than 2 championships, and maybe less than that. Circumstances and teammates matter.

A "great" Team that didn't win a damned thing before he joined'm...

Won 11 Championships when he did...

And then stopped winning immediately when he retired.

Yeah. He was just along for the ride, pal!!
jester.gif
 
Russell was on a GREAT, GREAT team that didn't need him to score (which was the weakness in his game). If he had been on the same teams Lebron has found himself on I don't believe he would have won more than 2 championships, and maybe less than that. Circumstances and teammates matter.
You're -still- an idiot.
 
A "great" Team that didn't win a damned thing before he joined'm...

Won 11 Championships when he did...

And then stopped winning immediately when he retired.

Yeah. He was just along for the ride, pal!!
jester.gif

You're better than that OTG. Russell joined the Celtics the same year as another HOFer, Tom Heinsohn. They joined a team that already had two HOFers--Cousy and Sharman. Together, Heinsohn and Russell accounted for a grand total of, wait for it, 5 more wins than the year prior. Russell was the last piece in a championship puzzle. Lebron had that situation in Miami and won 2 out of 4. He should have won 3 out of 4, and it is a completely valid criticism that he did not. But let's not pretend that he wouldn't have won many more championships if he were consistently surrounded with the talent that Russell was (for example, in 1964, when Russell had 5 HOF teammates).

Compare Lebron's impact:

Cleveland 2003: 18 win improvement (and 4 more the next year)
Miami 2010: 11 win improvement (and 8 more the next year)
Cleveland 2014: 20 win improvement (and 7 more the next year)
 
Still calling trolls trolls, yeah.

Is Jack McCallum a troll? Because he rates Lebron higher than Russell as well. ESPN's panel did as well. Let me guess, McCallum is an idiot and ESPN's experts are biased?
 
Is Jack McCallum a troll? Because he rates Lebron higher than Russell as well. ESPN's panel did as well. Let me guess, McCallum is an idiot and ESPN's experts are biased?
Pretty funny to see someone come on this forum and extol the virtues of ESPN 'journalism'. The answer is that the ESPN guys a) are young enough that the never saw any of that era of basketball, and b) are enormously invested in pumping up LeBron for revenue reasons. Hell, after he went to Miami, for several years they had part of their website devoted entirely to following his exploits. Apparently, the embarrassment eventually got to them and they stopped.
As for McCallum, you're repeatedly misrepresented him, but that's already been pointed out to you by others.

The funniest part is that you're still here, doubling down on your LeBron ballwashing even as he he gets his ass kicked in the Finals. Again.
 
letekro said:
Care to explain how Russell is better than Lebron? He shot 44% from the field while being guarded on most nights by 6' 7" white boys. That is a terrible percentage for a post player. Awful. He Couldn't shoot free throws. He was routinely dominated by the one great center he played against. Yes he blocked a lot of shots of those same 6' 7" white boys. Great. How about this--he was a very good defensive center who also happened to be on the best team of his era. Switch him with Wilt and you switch the number of championships.

I may have a different definition of "routinely dominated" but Russell won over 59% of the head to head matchups...

http://billsimmonsbogusbook.blogspot.com/2013/01/debunking-debunking-myth-3-of-russell.html


Wilt’s record against Russell: 58-84
Russell’s record against Wilt: 84-58 .591 winning percentage


Wilt Chamberlain vs. Bill Russell Comparison
Wilt outscored Russell 30 to 15 ppg on average but in almost all other categories, Russell wins,
They didn't become the best team of the era until Russell joined the team and they went into the basement after he retired.....
 
Russell was on a GREAT, GREAT team that didn't need him to score (which was the weakness in his game). If he had been on the same teams Lebron has found himself on I don't believe he would have won more than 2 championships, and maybe less than that. Circumstances and teammates matter.

Why do you keep trolling with such idiotic comments?
 
Pretty funny to see someone come on this forum and extol the virtues of ESPN 'journalism'. The answer is that the ESPN guys a) are young enough that the never saw any of that era of basketball, and b) are enormously invested in pumping up LeBron for revenue reasons. Hell, after he went to Miami, for several years they had part of their website devoted entirely to following his exploits. Apparently, the embarrassment eventually got to them and they stopped.
As for McCallum, you're repeatedly misrepresented him, but that's already been pointed out to you by others.

The funniest part is that you're still here, doubling down on your LeBron ballwashing even as he he gets his ass kicked in the Finals. Again.

McCallum, a HOF basketball writer that was on the NBA 50 committee, that saw Wilt and Russell play in person, ranks Lebron higher on his list of all-time players. Explain how that is a misrepresentation. You never will, because you resort to invective and nonsense when you are wrong instead of conceding the point, like a normal person would.

As for ESPN, you point makes absolutely no sense. According to the prevailing patsfans logic, ESPN tries to paint the Patriots in a bad light to boost readers and viewership, because everyone hates the Patriots. Well, everyone hates Lebron too, so under the same logic, wouldn't more people read the list if they ranked him after players that he has no business being ranked after, like Elgin Baylor or Moses Malone?

Your last sentence just shows how little you know about basketball. The best player almost always tips the balance WHEN THE TEAMS ARE COMPARABLE. When the other team is so vastly superior, there is nothing that Lebron, Bill Russell, or Michael Jordan can do. Do you understand this simple point? Go rewatch the '86 Celtics-Bulls series if this concept is not sinking in for you.
 
I may have a different definition of "routinely dominated" but Russell won over 59% of the head to head matchups...

http://billsimmonsbogusbook.blogspot.com/2013/01/debunking-debunking-myth-3-of-russell.html


Wilt’s record against Russell: 58-84
Russell’s record against Wilt: 84-58 .591 winning percentage


Wilt Chamberlain vs. Bill Russell Comparison
Wilt outscored Russell 30 to 15 ppg on average but in almost all other categories, Russell wins,
They didn't become the best team of the era until Russell joined the team and they went into the basement after he retired.....


This has been beaten to death. Chamberlain scored twice as much , rebounded more, had more assists, shot a much better FG%. Despite being surrounded by players that were not as good as those that surrounded Russell, his teams still won 40% of the time against one of the greatest teams ever assembled. So, I submit to you that the other 11 guys on a basketball team have some impact on game outcomes. To me that is self-evident. But if you disagree, you disagree.
 
Right now it looks like the Cleveland Indians have a better shot at winning the NBA championship than do the Cavs.
 
McCallum, a HOF basketball writer that was on the NBA 50 committee, that saw Wilt and Russell play in person, ranks Lebron higher on his list of all-time players. Explain how that is a misrepresentation. You never will, because you resort to invective and nonsense when you are wrong instead of conceding the point, like a normal person would.

As for ESPN, you point makes absolutely no sense. According to the prevailing patsfans logic, ESPN tries to paint the Patriots in a bad light to boost readers and viewership, because everyone hates the Patriots. Well, everyone hates Lebron too, so under the same logic, wouldn't more people read the list if they ranked him after players that he has no business being ranked after, like Elgin Baylor or Moses Malone?

Your last sentence just shows how little you know about basketball. The best player almost always tips the balance WHEN THE TEAMS ARE COMPARABLE. When the other team is so vastly superior, there is nothing that Lebron, Bill Russell, or Michael Jordan can do. Do you understand this simple point? Go rewatch the '86 Celtics-Bulls series if this concept is not sinking in for you.
He also said he picked Russ to win.

And if you think LeBron is playing well this series, you're completely and utterly delusional. The fact is, he's always been mentally soft, a front runner who quits in the face of adversity. You Can worship him all you want, but at the end of the day, he's just another physical freak who has no idea how to make his team better. Don't worry. He can always quit Cleveland after the season and go looking for another preassmbled collection of all-starts to carry his ass.
 
He also said he picked Russ to win.

And if you think LeBron is playing well this series, you're completely and utterly delusional. The fact is, he's always been mentally soft, a front runner who quits in the face of adversity. You Can worship him all you want, but at the end of the day, he's just another physical freak who has no idea how to make his team better. Don't worry. He can always quit Cleveland after the season and go looking for another preassmbled collection of all-starts to carry his ass.

So, you falsely accuse me of misrepresenting McCallum's statements, and then you make something he never said (or implied) out of whole cloth? McCallum said that he picked Russ for the all time team because:

I choose Big Russ as the center, figuring that, with other immortals around (Jordan, Bird, Robertson, Baylor, Magic et al), he wouldn’t have to score, and his gifted defense would be most valuable. But we’re talking about players here, and I simply don’t believe that, despite his 11 rings, he is as good a player as the two centers listed above him.

So in a world where he is surrounded by the greatest players of all time, he is the perfect 5th element. But, in the real world, as a player, he is not as good as the two centers ranked above him (Kareem and Wilt) or, by implication, the 5 other players ranked above him, including Lebron. That's why he's ranked 8th. Yes Russell may have been the best guy to round out a team of offensive greats, but that has no bearing on who is the greater player. In McCallum's view, James is the better player. You don't have to agree with that, but you can't argue that that is his conclusion. It is what it is.

For whatever reason, you hate Lebron James. Own it. But don't pretend that your hatred for him doesn't color your analysis of his skill or accomplishments. I used to hate him too, and laughed when they blew the Mavs series. But, at some point you have to acknowledge greatness for what it is.
 
Bless your heart. You're a hoot, you are. It's too bad you never saw any of the players you denigrate play.
 
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