Let's talk defensive line

Deus Irae · Sep 30, 2014

It's becoming more and more clear that there are issues on the line, both with scheme and personnel. I don't want to pigeon hole the discussion beyond that, but let's stalk D-line issues and solutions. Also, let's see if we can keep this both sane and relatively on point. The other threads are firing off and have mutliple topics, so let's make this one a bit different.

SeanBruschi54 · Sep 30, 2014

I don't know what else they can do. They signed Walker and he hasnt had enough time learn the playbook is it a matter of Wilfork getting pushed around? Is Nink or Chandler jones too much of a liability?

So many questions from last night.

IllegalContact · Sep 30, 2014

Hard to say......since the entire team was so off last night, gonna have to wait a week to see how much is real

JackBauer · Sep 30, 2014

Losing Siliga hurts.
Jones has been wildly inconsistent. Excellent at times but undisciplined at others.
Easley looks like a rookie coming off injury with no TC.
Wilfork has been up and down, but forced to play more than I'd like.
Ninkovich has been mostly invisible.
Not sure what to think about Chris Jones.
Vellano...why, BB? Just why?

PS: I miss Tommy Kelly

SVN · Sep 30, 2014

Something from Reiss about how they were used

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-.../patriots-2nd-quarter-review-young-wrs-absent

"4. In the end, I wonder if the Patriots regretted staying in nickel against the Chiefs instead of playing the 4-3 base against everything thrown at them. There is obviously a trickle-down effect of doing that -- it would limit coverage options -- but it was almost as if they were facing a barrage of groupings and formations and perhaps less would have been more for them (we’ll later highlight a play in the second quarter that sparked this thought). "

"4. It was mentioned in the first-quarter review that perhaps the Patriots might have considered staying in their base defense against the Chiefs’ three-wide-receiver groupings because of their struggles defending the run in nickel. The play that sparked the thought wasKnile Davis' 48-yard run (12:25 remaining). The Chiefs were at their own 14-yard line and came out in a tightly compact 3 WR/1 TE/1 RB package, while the Patriots countered in nickel with three down linemen and Chandler Jones in a two-point stance on the right side of the line. With effective pre-snap motion and quasi-play-action from left to right, the Patriots’ front was manipulated out of position as Davis took a handoff up the middle and Vince Wilfork and linebacker Jerod Mayo appeared to struggle shedding. Too easy for the Chiefs. "

Deus Irae · Sep 30, 2014

JackBauer said:
Losing Siliga hurts.
Jones has been wildly inconsistent. Excellent at times but undisciplined at others.
Easley looks like a rookie coming off injury with no TC.
Wilfork has been up and down, but forced to play more than I'd like.
Not sure what to think about Chris Jones.
Vellano...why, BB? Just why?

PS: I miss Tommy Kelly

Well, starting with the first one. Why, on a team who's coach prides himself on personnel depth, is this team so thin that losing a player like Siliga is enough to make this team a terrible run blocking squad?

RxJock1120 · Sep 30, 2014

I think the discussion is pretty simple, can't stop the run and can't generate pressure in the pass game...that's about all that the DLine should be able to do. Unless you include taking up blockers in a 3-4 alignment, which they also can't do.

Chandler Jones was a beast in the first two series and then was rather invisible. Only stood out for losing backside containment on a couple of run plays.

Big Vince doesn't seem to have any pop or the crazy athletesism we were used to seeing in previous years.

Ninko is pretty much invisible and only stood out for slipping on the grass instead of making tackles.

Easley has pretty much done nothing.

Chris Jones or Joe Villano are also invisible.

SeanBruschi54 · Sep 30, 2014

Why were they in nickel so much? KC is a run heavy team and its obvious the non stop zone play calls were not effective in any stretch of the imagination

SVN · Sep 30, 2014

Deus Irae said:
Well, starting with the first one. Why, on a team who's coach prides himself on personnel depth, is this team so thin that losing a player like Siliga is enough to make this team a terrible run blocking squad?

I dont think Siliga wouldve helped last night. They were confused and lost with all the pre snap motion of the chiefs. Never adjusted .

PittPatriot · Sep 30, 2014

I still cannot put my finger on what led to Tommy Kelly leaving. I really felt he was part of solidfication of this line. Now, we are thinner but not much faster...just weaker.

JackBauer · Sep 30, 2014

Deus Irae said:
Well, starting with the first one. Why, on a team who's coach prides himself on personnel depth, is this team so thin that losing a player like Siliga is enough to make this team a terrible run blocking squad?

I don't know. I don't know why we have Joe Vellano on the roster when he can't rush the passer OR stop the run. You'd think with Easley as your (potential) pass-rushing DT, BB would have sought out another wide body who could spell Wilfork and Siliga.

Deus Irae · Sep 30, 2014

SVN said:
I dont think Siliga wouldve helped last night. They were confused and lost with all the pre snap motion of the chiefs. Never adjusted .

Ok, but how much of that is because Siliga is the only DL besides Wilfork who has any lead in his ass, as opposed to technique issues or mental failings? When teams are able to target Jones on the DL and Collins at LB, and run all over them, what percentage is confusion and what percentage is personnel?

SeanBruschi54 · Sep 30, 2014

PittPatriot said:
I still cannot put my finger on what led to Tommy Kelly leaving. I really felt he was part of solidfication of this line. Now, we are thinner but not much faster...just weaker.

Simple, he stated he asked to leave because guys who were not playing as well as him (who were making less in his words) were getting more time than him and he was not ok with that happening.

Deus Irae · Sep 30, 2014

JackBauer said:
I don't know. I don't know why we have Joe Vellano on the roster when he can't rush the passer OR stop the run. You'd think with Easley as your (potential) pass-rushing DT, BB would have sought out another wide body who could spell Wilfork and Siliga.

They had that guy, but he's in Arizona. I think someone needs to ask BB why he demanded the contract adjustment that led to his eventual departure.

Unfortunately, we'll only hear about "doing what's best for the team", but it does need to be asked. Why demand playtime incentives from a guy you know you're going to cut back time on? That's guaranteed to cause strife? Bill knows that, so he had to have some reason to think it was still the way to go. He should explain that, but he won't.

As for Vellano, I look at him as a better version of Devey. He doesn't seem to belong, yet he's there.

Kontradiction · Sep 30, 2014

1. Wilfork should not be playing this many snaps this late in his career, post-Achilles. I wish Siliga was healthy but there needs to be more depth behind him.

2. There needs to be another reliable edge rusher that steps up in the ranks to spell Nink, Chandler, and Hightower (when he rushes). Even before he injured his shoulder, Chandler was very obviously gassed last night.

3. This team does not have the personnel on the DL to play the 3-4. Quit that ****.

I'll come back with more later, I'm just in the middle of something currently.

SVN · Sep 30, 2014

Deus Irae said:
Well, starting with the first one. Why, on a team who's coach prides himself on personnel depth, is this team so thin that losing a player like Siliga is enough to make this team a terrible run blocking squad?

Well that is a mistake but cant be corrected right now because he is gone to arizona. As you said, 'solutions' need to found internally . Who is Easely subbing for right now ? Can be play on the edge ?

skspikex2 · Sep 30, 2014

I take a Tommy Kelly over a Joe Vellano+Chris Jones right now. But there's no point in dwelling on the matter, what's done is done.

Right now, it's a combination of both poor personnel and scheme. There were plenty of plays where the defense look so lost. I'm not a coach nor play the game, but that game was poorly coached.

Deus Irae · Sep 30, 2014

Ok, Siliga is out of the picture for a while, so what's the solution? Is there someone out there that people think could help, or is this team going to have to keep trying to scheme it?

letekro · Sep 30, 2014

Ideally, you would have Wilfork and Siliga rotating at one of the DTs and Chr. Jones and Easley rotating at the other. (Ideally, you would have Tommy Kelly instead of Joe Vellano, but that ship has sailed). I think that would be at least adequate, and is still a possibility later in the year. Give Zach Moore a few looks in passing situations. Ninkovich may be better in a platoon role right now, perhaps with Buchanan. He seems to have too much on his plate and all areas of his game are suffering. Chan. Jones needs to play more disciplined or see his time further cut down. It does no good to make one great TFL if he is going to follow it up by losing contain two times.

Also, Revis and Browner have to be given the chance to take receivers out of the game. This will allow Chung or whoever is playing next to McCourty to cheat towards the run.

Nunchucks · Sep 30, 2014

SVN said:
Something from Reiss about how they were used

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-.../patriots-2nd-quarter-review-young-wrs-absent

"4. In the end, I wonder if the Patriots regretted staying in nickel against the Chiefs instead of playing the 4-3 base against everything thrown at them. There is obviously a trickle-down effect of doing that -- it would limit coverage options -- but it was almost as if they were facing a barrage of groupings and formations and perhaps less would have been more for them (we’ll later highlight a play in the second quarter that sparked this thought). "

"4. It was mentioned in the first-quarter review that perhaps the Patriots might have considered staying in their base defense against the Chiefs’ three-wide-receiver groupings because of their struggles defending the run in nickel. The play that sparked the thought wasKnile Davis' 48-yard run (12:25 remaining). The Chiefs were at their own 14-yard line and came out in a tightly compact 3 WR/1 TE/1 RB package, while the Patriots countered in nickel with three down linemen and Chandler Jones in a two-point stance on the right side of the line. With effective pre-snap motion and quasi-play-action from left to right, the Patriots’ front was manipulated out of position as Davis took a handoff up the middle and Vince Wilfork and linebacker Jerod Mayo appeared to struggle shedding. Too easy for the Chiefs. "

Except when they went to their base defense, the Chiefs just threw the ball and we watched LBs covering Wrs.

Let's talk defensive line

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