The sad state of the Pats Safeties

Triumph said:

Yes, interesting.

The facts are that Washington missed only 6 games and to say there wasnt minimal impact in his absence is false. TW missed the Denver away game and the NE D had its first 100+ rusher in Clinton Portis that regular season. Klecko started at NT as was yanked out in the first quarter.

Klecko overall was a disaster at LB too, so his snaps or minutes there are really meaningless. 12 total tackles and 6 assists for all his minutes. Its like saying Maroney had an impact because he had 150 carries.

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My impressions tend to agree with this. Ted Washington was immense and we were lucky that Ty warren played very well in his absence. Klecko was a joke at NFL NT.

RayClay said:

My impressions tend to agree with this. Ted Washington was immense and we were lucky that Ty warren played very well in his absence. Klecko was a joke at NFL NT.

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Yes, most had the same impressions. The problem is that they were wrong.

Buffalo: 107 yards/ 33 carries/ 3.2 ypc
Philly: 99/ 17/ 5.8
NYJ: 65/ 17/ 3.8
------ Ted gets hurt--------
Wash: 106/ 30/ 3.5
TN: 70/ 27/ 2.6
NYG: 75/ 24/ 3.1
Miami: 97/ 29/ 3.3
Cleve: 84/ 19/ 4.4
Denver: 114/ 29/ 3.9
-------Ted returns----------
Dallas: 84/ 28/ 3.0
Hou: 89/ 3.0/ 30
Indy: 98/ 29/ 3.4
Miami: 68/ 27/ 2.5
Jax: 72/ 20/ 3.6
NYJ: 109/ 26/ 4.2
Buffalo: 82/ 20/ 4.1

I'm going to exclude the two Buffalo games and the Philly game from the totals since they were all blowouts and not representative of genuine run defense. I think you will agree that doing so is more than fair to the numbers.

With Ted: 585/ 177/ 3.3
Without: 546/ 158/ 3.5

Was the team better with Ted than without? Of course! But he wasn't the primary reason they went from 4.7 ypc in 2002 to 3.6 in 2003.

As for Warren, he was only a part-timer during the without Ted period of 2003, so I'm not sure how much credit he deserves. As I said before, Klecko got about the same number of snaps. On top of that, NE switched to a 4/3 for much of Ted's absence. The real difference was the overhaul in the secondary, most notably Rodney Harrison's addition.

BaltimorePatsFan said:

Going 14-2 and then getting dominated by a team they annihilated earlier in the season, mostly because of the defense, is actually pretty bad.

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We did not get dominated by the Jets.

Considering many were predicting our demise, losing 2 of our best defense starters for the entire year and the youth of the defense I'd tend to disagree.

Oswlek said:

On top of that, NE's best defenses consistently had two upper tier starting safeties. Even if you count Chung as someone who will emerge, that still means one more elite guy is needed to bring the defense into prominance. I'm not sure that guy is on the roster at the moment, though Page looked like he was earning some trust before getting hurt. Ras-I is another option, though BB seemed to indicate CB is where he will start.

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I don't think I agree with the premise of needing two elite safeties. During the Pats Super Bowl years who were the dominant defensive backs? We had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy. Then we had Asante Samuel and Rodney Harrison.

So 1 stud CB and 1 stud S is generally enough. The second tier safeties were guys like Tebuckey Jones and Eugene Wilson. Although Meriweather has made the pro bowl twice, a fact that I find astonishing, he reminds me more of Tebuckey Jones than either Milloy or Harrison. Chung actually reminds me a lot of Harrison with the physicality that he brings to the game.

The Pats real need is a FS type. A ballhawk in the middle who can make plays on the ball. Perhaps Dowling can play that hybrid S/CB role similar to say Eugene Wilson. If Dowling turns out at least as good as Wilson was (before he got banged up), that should be more than good enough of a safety tandem to contend for titles. Particularly when you account for the fact that McCourty looks to be an up and coming stud in the mold of a Ty Law, and Bodden would probably be the most talented #2 CB that the Pats have had in years.

Oswlek said:

Yes, most had the same impressions. The problem is that they were wrong.

Buffalo: 107 yards/ 33 carries/ 3.2 ypc
Philly: 99/ 17/ 5.8
NYJ: 65/ 17/ 3.8
------ Ted gets hurt--------
Wash: 106/ 30/ 3.5
TN: 70/ 27/ 2.6
NYG: 75/ 24/ 3.1
Miami: 97/ 29/ 3.3
Cleve: 84/ 19/ 4.4
Denver: 114/ 29/ 3.9
-------Ted returns----------
Dallas: 84/ 28/ 3.0
Hou: 89/ 3.0/ 30
Indy: 98/ 29/ 3.4
Miami: 68/ 27/ 2.5
Jax: 72/ 20/ 3.6
NYJ: 109/ 26/ 4.2
Buffalo: 82/ 20/ 4.1

I'm going to exclude the two Buffalo games and the Philly game from the totals since they were all blowouts and not representative of genuine run defense. I think you will agree that doing so is more than fair to the numbers.

With Ted: 585/ 177/ 3.3
Without: 546/ 158/ 3.5

Was the team better with Ted than without? Of course! But he wasn't the primary reason they went from 4.7 ypc in 2002 to 3.6 in 2003.

As for Warren, he was only a part-timer during the without Ted period of 2003, so I'm not sure how much credit he deserves. As I said before, Klecko got about the same number of snaps. On top of that, NE switched to a 4/3 for much of Ted's absence. The real difference was the overhaul in the secondary, most notably Rodney Harrison's addition.

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If accountants played football, you'd be an all pro.

Of course the defense made adjustments, likely changing their pass defense. Taking some game statistics and saying they prove things about individual players is a farce, it's a team game.

You might see about getting a job with pro football focus.

BTW, everyone is already aware they did a good job against the run without Washington, but no one says it proves he and Ty Warren didn't cover that position much better than it had been.

VJCPatriot said:

I don't think I agree with the premise of needing two elite safeties. During the Pats Super Bowl years who were the dominant defensive backs? We had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy. Then we had Asante Samuel and Rodney Harrison.

So 1 stud CB and 1 stud S is generally enough. The second tier safeties were guys like Tebuckey Jones and Eugene Wilson. Although Meriweather has made the pro bowl twice, a fact that I find astonishing, he reminds me more of Tebuckey Jones than either Milloy or Harrison. Chung actually reminds me a lot of Harrison with the physicality that he brings to the game.

The Pats real need is a FS type. A ballhawk in the middle who can make plays on the ball. Perhaps Dowling can play that hybrid S/CB role similar to say Eugene Wilson. If Dowling turns out at least as good as Wilson was (before he got banged up), that should be more than good enough of a safety tandem to contend for titles. Particularly when you account for the fact that McCourty looks to be an up and coming stud in the mold of a Ty Law, and Bodden would probably be the most talented #2 CB that the Pats have had in years.

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Yep, Tebucky Jones. I've thought that too.

Oswlek said:

Yes, most had the same impressions. The problem is that they were wrong.

Buffalo: 107 yards/ 33 carries/ 3.2 ypc
Philly: 99/ 17/ 5.8
NYJ: 65/ 17/ 3.8
------ Ted gets hurt--------
Wash: 106/ 30/ 3.5
TN: 70/ 27/ 2.6
NYG: 75/ 24/ 3.1
Miami: 97/ 29/ 3.3
Cleve: 84/ 19/ 4.4
Denver: 114/ 29/ 3.9
-------Ted returns----------
Dallas: 84/ 28/ 3.0
Hou: 89/ 3.0/ 30
Indy: 98/ 29/ 3.4
Miami: 68/ 27/ 2.5
Jax: 72/ 20/ 3.6
NYJ: 109/ 26/ 4.2
Buffalo: 82/ 20/ 4.1

I'm going to exclude the two Buffalo games and the Philly game from the totals since they were all blowouts and not representative of genuine run defense. I think you will agree that doing so is more than fair to the numbers.

With Ted: 585/ 177/ 3.3
Without: 546/ 158/ 3.5

Was the team better with Ted than without? Of course! But he wasn't the primary reason they went from 4.7 ypc in 2002 to 3.6 in 2003.

As for Warren, he was only a part-timer during the without Ted period of 2003, so I'm not sure how much credit he deserves. As I said before, Klecko got about the same number of snaps. On top of that, NE switched to a 4/3 for much of Ted's absence. The real difference was the overhaul in the secondary, most notably Rodney Harrison's addition.

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Do you have anything to back up that Klecko played as much as Warren, because as I remember it that is completely wrong. Warren stepped in and took the job while Washington was, unless my memory sucks.

RayClay said:

If accountants played football, you'd be an all pro.

Of course the defense made adjustments, likely changing their pass defense. Taking some game statistics and saying they prove things about individual players is a farce, it's a team game.

You might see about getting a job with pro football focus.

BTW, everyone is already aware they did a good job against the run without Washington, but no one says it proves he and Ty Warren didn't cover that position much better than it had been.

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What are you talking about? What exactly did Ted Washington enhance if not the run defense? The fact that "it's a team game" is the point I was making whereas everyone else wants to hand all the credit to Big Ted.

I'm pretty sure I also said that Ted had a positive influence as well.

Was the team better with Ted than without? Of course!

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Seriously, did you not get the point of my post at all? Am I that lousy of a communicator?

AndyJohnson said:

Do you have anything to back up that Klecko played as much as Warren, because as I remember it that is completely wrong. Warren stepped in and took the job while Washington was, unless my memory sucks.

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Just my memory. I suppose I could be wrong, but I'm about 85% certain their snaps were pretty equal until later in the season and after Ted returned.

Oswlek said:

What are you talking about? What exactly did Ted Washington enhance if not the run defense? The fact that "it's a team game" is the point I was making whereas everyone else wants to hand all the credit to Big Ted.

I'm pretty sure I also said that Ted had a positive influence as well.



Seriously, did you not get the point of my post at all? Am I that lousy of a communicator?

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You implied that, because the Pats made a successful adjustment, TW wasn't really crucial to our stopping the run.

Having said it was the adjustment, not the original lineup that was the norm, you want to backtrack. Be my guest.

Do you think the parts of the defense aren't related? With 400 lbs. of experienced nose tackle in there, of course the linebackers and secondary can play much differently.

You ignore the fact of the best defensive mind in the game available to make adjustments. I guess since Wilfork often played DE instead of Nose this year that "proves" we don't "need" him at NT?

Add to that a top DE able to slide over, and a top DE who had played NT the year before available, as well as ability to adjust by a veteran secondary and linebackers.

Just keep looking at aggregate numbers for one phase of the defense, ignoring temporary adjustments by the greatest defensive mind in the game and think you've proved something.

The Patriots stopped the rush in some games with Kyle Love at end and Gerard Warren at NT. Maybe it was a function of the other teams game plan, but in your world, that "proves" something. Okeedokee.

Of all the positions on the Patriots roster Safety is one of the ones I'm least worried about. They are in very good shape at safety.

eagle eye said:

Of all the positions on the Patriots roster Safety is one of the ones I'm least worried about. They are in very good shape at safety.

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exactly
dont get me wrong i understand the merriweather "hate" but i feel with just a tad bit of improvement and working on his weaknesses he will be fine

chung is a beast in the making, nuff said
and we have some really good depth

This thread is screaming for a poll (if anyone cares at this point). I've never made one, so I'll defer to others.

RayClay said:

You implied that, because the Pats made a successful adjustment, TW wasn't really crucial to our stopping the run.

Having said it was the adjustment, not the original lineup that was the norm, you want to backtrack. Be my guest.

Do you think the parts of the defense aren't related? With 400 lbs. of experienced nose tackle in there, of course the linebackers and secondary can play much differently.

You ignore the fact of the best defensive mind in the game available to make adjustments. I guess since Wilfork often played DE instead of Nose this year that "proves" we don't "need" him at NT?

Add to that a top DE able to slide over, and a top DE who had played NT the year before available, as well as ability to adjust by a veteran secondary and linebackers.

Just keep looking at aggregate numbers for one phase of the defense, ignoring temporary adjustments by the greatest defensive mind in the game and think you've proved something.

The Patriots stopped the rush in some games with Kyle Love at end and Gerard Warren at NT. Maybe it was a function of the other teams game plan, but in your world, that "proves" something. Okeedokee.

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You misinterpreted my entire point and still chose to launch an attack.

When did everyone on this site become an arsehole?

Oswlek said:

You misinterpreted my entire point and still chose to launch an attack.

When did everyone on this site become an arsehole?

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Oswlek said:

It is interesting how BB will see things different than the fans. In 2003 we all point to Big Ted's arrival as a key fix to NE's prior year run D woes. What is forgotten is that Ted missed 8 games with minimal impact. Warren was a factor, but forgotten was that Dan Klecko played as many minutes as Ty did while Ted was out.

Where NE really fixed the run defese was by turning over 3/4 (4/5 if you add the top CB backup) of the secondary. Gap filling by the safeties and edge support from the CBs was what BB fixed while we were all pointing to the savior on the DL.

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If this wasn't your point, I apologize.

By the way, starting out your post with the "fact" that only you know how BB thinks and all us mere fans know nothing, is pretty arrogant. Sorry if I hurt your delicate feelings, but I like to think BB always thinks the way I do. OK?

VJCPatriot said:

I don't think I agree with the premise of needing two elite safeties. During the Pats Super Bowl years who were the dominant defensive backs? We had Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy. Then we had Asante Samuel and Rodney Harrison.

So 1 stud CB and 1 stud S is generally enough. The second tier safeties were guys like Tebuckey Jones and Eugene Wilson. Although Meriweather has made the pro bowl twice, a fact that I find astonishing, he reminds me more of Tebuckey Jones than either Milloy or Harrison. Chung actually reminds me a lot of Harrison with the physicality that he brings to the game.

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Page reminds me of Tebuck Jones too.

VJCPatriot said:

The Pats real need is a FS type. A ballhawk in the middle who can make plays on the ball. Perhaps Dowling can play that hybrid S/CB role similar to say Eugene Wilson. If Dowling turns out at least as good as Wilson was (before he got banged up), that should be more than good enough of a safety tandem to contend for titles. Particularly when you account for the fact that McCourty looks to be an up and coming stud in the mold of a Ty Law, and Bodden would probably be the most talented #2 CB that the Pats have had in years.

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I cannot think of any FA Saftey the Pats could bring in, but if Chung puts it together and improves his pass coverage he could be a poor mans Rodney Harrison.

You would think it wouldnt be that hard to find a well rounded Safety, but Ive discovered that its difficult.

patriot lifer said:

This thread is screaming for a poll (if anyone cares at this point). I've never made one, so I'll defer to others.

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No poll, but these stats shed some light on how piss poor Meriweather is. FWIW, a 20% success rate after all this time. I do not see him improving unless a miracle happens.

Advanced NFL Stats Player Statistics

TheComeback said:

Brandon Meriweather is a much better safety than he gets credit for on these forums. He is undeserving of two pro bowls, but if you go back and watch the games, he's constantly all over the field making plays.

Yes, he blows tackles and his attitude is a little undesirable, but he isn't Pacman Jones. Meriweather is the ideal "solid" free safety. Without him I think we'd notice our defense giving up quite a few more passes in the deep third of the field. He's very good in coverage.

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He blows tackles with an alarmingly high frequency and really isn't that great of a ball hawk. Rewatch some of the games from this season and watch Meriweather try to tackle, it's really sad. I believe his coverage skills are very lacking, he always seems to show up late to wide open areas where a WR just caught a big completion. I can't prove that it was his responsibility but he's on the wrong end of those big plays more often than not.

patfanken said:

Typical NE, puritan negative reaction. You compare Harrison, who should be a HOFer, with our current Safeties and find them wanting. What a shock! I'm guessing you can do the same for 95% of the rest of the league's safeties as well.

For your next post you might think about talking about how disappointing it is that it might rain soon.

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FAIL

Meri gone.

but we have Antwaun Molden ... Anquan Bolden's cousin


we could move ppl around... But I smell a VET