Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed [10 years, $100M]

[PatsFanJess]

Re: Asante wants $100 million???

Saw it on Rotoworld, which cites the Herald which I refuse to link to.



That would be an absurd amount of money for a guy who I'm always going to remember as Reche Caldwell II.[/QUOTE]

O c'mon he's not Reche Caldwell II! I dont even understand that since they play different positions. He's more like Ty Law II. Although, I think Ty is...WAS a better corner than Asante is. I mean T.Y II, in the sense of what may happen to Asante. Sorry, Asante. Thanks for everything though.

 

[bradmahn]

Re: Asante wants $100 million???

Saw it on Rotoworld, which cites the Herald which I refuse to link to.



That would be an absurd amount of money for a guy who I'm always going to remember as Reche Caldwell II.[/QUOTE]

O c'mon he's not Reche Caldwell II! I dont even understand that since they play different positions. He's more like Ty Law II. Although, I think Ty is...WAS a better corner than Asante is. I mean T.Y II, in the sense of what may happen to Asante. Sorry, Asante. Thanks for everything though.

Asante is not Ty, Ty could play man.
And I think the OP was talking about the drop that "cost the Pats a game," even though Caldwell's drops did not lose that game, nor would they have iced it.

 

[cornhuskers_2002]

The raiders are shopping Michael Huff... that would help the secondary. I wonder what they want for him

 

[Patriot_dynasty]

You can't demand a contract like that after letting the biggest INT of your career slip through your hands. Good luck to you Asante.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Re: Asante wants $100 million???

Somewhat old news by now - the $100 million wouldn't be "real" money. What is real is his call for $30 million guaranteed.

I think he can get that if he only demands minimal salaries on top of the bonus.

i.e $28 million guaranteed on a 7 year deal (yes, we all know it likely won't go that long) is pretty easy to stomach cap wise.

Wellllll, the 100M is "real" to the extent that the guaranty money enforces the salary money, with the threat of dead money at the end of the contract, if I understand correctly.

So if what you're saying is $28M signing bonus (again, staying simple for the sake of simplicity,) amortized over 7 years, let's add 2M salary for this year to make his even $30M guar.

It's only 4M per year to keep him in the deal... but then you have the salaries. What you're saying is keep his salaries minimal, and you want him on a 7 year deal, so scaling this for his 10M APY, we could call it (in cap terms)

$6M (2M salary +4M amortized out of 28M)
$6.5M (2.5M salary)
$7M (3M salary)
$7.5M (3.5M salary)
$8M (4M salary)
$8.5M (4.5M salary)

For 6 years. That gets his cap number past his 2007 cap number the first time in 2012.

Now, to get to 70M, 7 years, year 7 has to be...

36.5M (32.5M salary)

Do we really think Samuel signs that farcical a deal? Well, it works about the same way regardless of the number of years you stretch it out for.

The player's side uses the guaranty money to leverage salary years into actually happening, and is not in business specifically to screw that player over.

I think you could get year 7 in your above deal to be 20M cap space or so (representing an easy out at 4M dead money hit,) but not 36.5M against the cap, as in the "6 yrs minimal salary" example above.

That's the thing about the bonus money... it's the "gift that keeps on giving."

Hey by the way, think about this: Asante has 28M bonus money in his pocket. Let's say he sucks so bad that by the third year he's verging on losing his starting job... you want to ditch him with 4 years left. Well, you're on the hook in the above deal for a $16M cap hit for nothing when you divest yourself of him (in the case of a cut.)

That's what happens with guaranteed money... it gives the player leverage and loads risk on the team.

We put up with a certain amount of that. Every team has to. And I don't doubt that relatively "player friendly" teams get perhaps a period of more cheerful contribution out of their guys. (Frinstance, I bet Freeney comes back rarin to spin around in a circle for his 10M/year spin-in-a-circle deal.) I bet Freeney loooooves them Colts. But as has been pointed out, the Pats' philosophy is to be very judicious in the application of the "hey! He's good! Pay him as much as he wants on day 1!!!!" strategy.

That leaves control more in the hands of the franchise, in most cases. For individual players, it's sort of crappy. After all, if Team X drafted Asante, and let's say paid him something like the deal he asks for above, he would love Team X, because they'd be the guys that drafted them, and treated him so well. Well, he WANTS to love New England (I am sure it is something like that in his mind,) but NE is telling him to leave money on the table!

That's the bugger of cap discipline.

PFnV

 

[Miguel]

1.) A signing bonus given in 2008 can only be prorated over 6 years.
2.) Some players (most notably Tony Romo) have future salaries guaranteed so asking for $30 million in guarantees does not mean that Samuel is asking for a $30 million signing bonus.
3.) A team could guarantee his 2008 salary and that could count as part of the 30 million.
4.) Ask high, settle for less is better than ask low, settle for less than that.

 

[celticboy04]

Greetings,

Asante Samuel has played tremendously for us the past two seasons made the Pro Bowl this year and should have made it last year. But shelling all of that money to one player in my opinion is very rediculous especially since he is not the best player at his position in the NFL. He is a top 5 cornerback and interceptions can be misleading to many people. Also his production taled off this seaon from 06 not only were his interceptions down but receivers caught more balls on him this season then last season an dropping that pass in the Super Bowl did not help things either. The Giants are a great example that you can have a weak secondary and still win a Super Bowl but only if you have a dominant front four to cover for it. Defense begins at the line of scrimmage winning the battle up front if you can sack quarterbacks, force them into making bad throws any glaring weaknesses in your seconardy won't matter. Remember final game of the season? Brady had time and picked the Giants secondary apart they doubled Moss and still could not stop him. Point is focus on your line and making your linebacker core stronger.

Shalom,
Celticboy04

 

[MoLewisrocks]

1.) A signing bonus given in 2008 can only be prorated over 6 years.
2.) Some players (most notably Tony Romo) have future salaries guaranteed so asking for $30 million in guarantees does not mean that Samuel is asking for a $30 million signing bonus.
3.) A team could guarantee his 2008 salary and that could count as part of the 30 million.
4.) Ask high, settle for less is better than ask low, settle for less than that.

I've tried to explain this to PFinVA, but he's determined to use his own amortization formula.

It will be interesting to see just how high the bidding goes with the other two corners franchised. The media seems to be convinced, and have convinced Asante, that he will command in the $10-12M range, although a select few are raising the warning of buyer beware.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Asante wants $100 million???

Somewhat old news by now - the $100 million wouldn't be "real" money. What is real is his call for $30 million guaranteed.

I think he can get that if he only demands minimal salaries on top of the bonus.

i.e $28 million guaranteed on a 7 year deal (yes, we all know it likely won't go that long) is pretty easy to stomach cap wise.

The salaries will only remain mininal for the first couple of years. Then once the bonus is accounted for in Asante's mind (3 years) the salaries will have to begin to approach a match of the AAV somewhat. And you can only amortize for 6 years max., and even if you split into a signing bonus in year 1 and option bonus in year 2, if the CBA gets voted out there will be lower limits for amortization of any option money in the face of an uncapped future. So realistically you are looking at close to $5M per in bonus cap hit against $500K-3M salaries in the first three years (so the money in the player's hands equals $30M) but rapidly escalating salaries from year 4 on.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Greetings,

Asante Samuel has played tremendously for us the past two seasons made the Pro Bowl this year and should have made it last year. But shelling all of that money to one player in my opinion is very rediculous especially since he is not the best player at his position in the NFL. He is a top 5 cornerback and interceptions can be misleading to many people. Also his production taled off this seaon from 06 not only were his interceptions down but receivers caught more balls on him this season then last season an dropping that pass in the Super Bowl did not help things either. The Giants are a great example that you can have a weak secondary and still win a Super Bowl but only if you have a dominant front four to cover for it. Defense begins at the line of scrimmage winning the battle up front if you can sack quarterbacks, force them into making bad throws any glaring weaknesses in your seconardy won't matter. Remember final game of the season? Brady had time and picked the Giants secondary apart they doubled Moss and still could not stop him. Point is focus on your line and making your linebacker core stronger.

Shalom,
Celticboy04

Amen...and welcome.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I've tried to explain this to PFinVA, but he's determined to use his own amortization formula.

It will be interesting to see just how high the bidding goes with the other two corners franchised. The media seems to be convinced, and have convinced Asante, that he will command in the $10-12M range, although a select few are raising the warning of buyer beware.

I hope you only mean Miguel's point 1 about the first six years only being amortizable. I keep trying to learn, and I keep trying to illustrate what I can using very simple versions of the same principles -- mea culpa. Especially when people are talking about 10 years, 8 years, even 7 years, the 6-year rule seems like it would be key.

As to the remainder of the above points, those I knew.... in the ultra-simple examples, I didn't try to muddy things by guaranteeing salary beyond year 1. It would seem it's just another way to take an unwelcome hit though, assuming bad outcomes. Yes it matters when you take the hit, but the point I keep trying to make seems to be about the same as you just made: that the Big Guaranty creates a Big Liability if you don't stay locked in. It's security for the player and risk for the team.

And unless I am missing something else - seriously tell me if I'm wrong, I can take it - that acts as leverage to insist on receiving the salaried years, until it gets close to the end of the amortization.

Do I have that right?

Anyway: juxtaposition of the 6-year amortization limit with the 10-year demand, does actually make this a 6 year real contract, with a four year possible vanity period, with no dead money attached -- again, do I have that right?

If so the very request for 10/100M, 30 guaranteed, therefore leaves a big and very cool loophole. Again, it depends if Asante will backload a bunch of mythical salary. even the 30 guaranty looks like 6 years at 5M now... so how much of his "non guaranteed" salary money he demands within the first 6 years is the real determinant. Hell, guarantee 30 mill over 6 including salary, and put off 70 M for a 4 year period that never happens, and you satisfy Samuel's "exhorbitant" demand, although, duh, if you're calling it 10/100/30, he's clearly not thinking of only getting the 30.

I am here to learn, great cap masters. I never claimed otherwise.

PFnV

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I hope you only mean Miguel's point 1 about the first six years only being amortizable. I keep trying to learn, and I keep trying to illustrate what I can using very simple versions of the same principles -- mea culpa. Especially when people are talking about 10 years, 8 years, even 7 years, the 6-year rule seems like it would be key.

As to the remainder of the above points, those I knew.... in the ultra-simple examples, I didn't try to muddy things by guaranteeing salary beyond year 1. It would seem it's just another way to take an unwelcome hit though, assuming bad outcomes. Yes it matters when you take the hit, but the point I keep trying to make seems to be about the same as you just made: that the Big Guaranty creates a Big Liability if you don't stay locked in. It's security for the player and risk for the team.

And unless I am missing something else - seriously tell me if I'm wrong, I can take it - that acts as leverage to insist on receiving the salaried years, until it gets close to the end of the amortization.

Do I have that right? Yup.

Anyway: juxtaposition of the 6-year amortization limit with the 10-year demand, does actually make this a 6 year real contract, with a four year possible vanity period, with no dead money attached -- again, do I have that right? You do, unless they need to free up cap space and start converting salary to bonus and amortizing it into those phony years. Teams can even make non phony years untenable doing that, but you do what you need to do at times...and worry about the consequences later in capology.

If so the very request for 10/100M, 30 guaranteed, therefore leaves a big and very cool loophole. Again, it depends if Asante will backload a bunch of mythical salary. even the 30 guaranty looks like 6 years at 5M now... so how much of his "non guaranteed" salary money he demands within the first 6 years is the real determinant. Hell, guarantee 30 mill over 6 including salary, and put off 70 M for a 4 year period that never happens, and you satisfy Samuel's "exhorbitant" demand, although, duh, if you're calling it 10/100/30, he's clearly not thinking of only getting the 30. No, he's thinking getting $60M+ worked into the first 6 years, or 50+/5 or 40++/4 and after that he doesn't really care until they cut him when he will be indignant because they aren't living up to the so called contract (see Law, Ty - 2004.). Although if he's still producing and gets back to FA, he figures he'll show them...

I am here to learn, great cap masters. I never claimed otherwise.

PFnV

I'm not a master, just a message board student of the master - sorta.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Oh, for the love of God. He really, really wants ten million bucks a year guaranteed. Real cash dollars. No, wait, that's my own crazy assumption. He does want dollars, right, not euros or bullion?

LOL thanks for the pointers Mo.

PFnV

 

[celticboy04]

Amen...and welcome.

Greetings,
Thank you very much for the welcome. Interesting name you have brings back memories of visiting family in Boston and watching Bledsoe get injured by Mo Lewis and thinking we were done with. Boy was I wrong
Shalom,
Celticboy04

 

[Dago]

which was the last offer of the Pats for Samuel?

 

[NEPatriot]

there are a few teams who can pay Samuel with that kind of money but is it really worth it.?

we will find out if he is really that good or Pats D is good in 08

 

[Real World]

Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

guys who are worth that much money don't drop superbowl game-sealing interceptions.

Bingo.

I like Asante, but he's incredibly overrated IMO, or at least plainly overrated. He's not worth that kind of $$.

 

[pheenix11]

Good friggin riddance. Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out.

I wouldn't resign Samuel at any price because he's obviously on some serious drugs if he thinks he's worth this.

 

[PatsNuts]

Haven't you heard Asante wants to be a Buccaneer according to his agent.

Here is the link:http://www.bucem.com/story/2008/2/25/222338/888

 

[spacecrime]

Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

couldn't they just give him 5 years at 6 million/year guaranteed with a bunch of LTBE incentives? with like 3 fake years on the deal at like 12, 14, 18 million or something? Then add some
10 Million dollar roster bonus where he can be cut after year 5.
I don't know if the incentives count against the cap... I basically have no idea what i am talking about

Ah-yup. We can tell.