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Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed [10 years, $100M]

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by stevedogc, Feb 23, 2008.

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  1. stevedogc

    stevedogc Rookie

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    heard on the falsh on WEEi this morning. They were quoting an article from a certain local newspaper who shall remain nameless (certain people are currently boycotting them) saying that the rumor going around the combine is that Samuel is looking for a 10 yr. $100 million with $30 mil guarenteed deal.

    sorry if this is old news. Didnt see it on any other threads.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2008
  2. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Good luck Assante with that ...
  3. BelichickFan

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    That would be an interesting structure - wanting a contract until he's 37. He'd have to have some roster bonuses instead of signing bonuses or he'd be almost uncuttable through about age 34 or so.
  4. bradmahn

    bradmahn Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Adios, Asante.

    Talk about inflated sense of self-worth.
  5. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Well, he wont get that anywhere. I seriously doubt he'd last in a real contract like that. He'll get big money, but I dunno about all that.
  6. PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    LMAO!!!! I just typed up this big thing based on the 8/80/22M guaranteed Clements deal last year. What the hell, I'll put it here anyway... Bear in mind that the posture of 10/100/30 is pure bullcrap, a first bargaining position.

    I was trying to post the following and timed out, back when I thought he only wanted 8/80/22 -

    We have absolutely no idea where this guy's head is at. We continually pretend that we do.

    It's all a big if-then: IF he wants absolute top dollar, THEN he's gone. IF he can handle "Getting Rich To This," with the "This" being a reasonable contract for a very good, but not game-changing cornerback, THEN he stays.

    I love to argue this crap as much as anybody and I hate to be a wet blanket, but we just have no idea.

    Indications thus far have been that he is more than willing to play hardball (see 07 holdout threats,) and has no compunction about who he pi s s es off in pursuit of his goals. We forget, however, that his goal was an assurance of no serial-franchise-tag.

    At the same time, his statement that Clement-like money was necessary to retain him could have been real, or could have been an opening posture.

    We know the math on a Clement-like deal... it might not bankrupt us this year, and it would be an 8-year deal with at least some vanity money nobody will see in the last year or two... but it would end up putting the Pats on the hook for years to come. How much of a hook has to do with how it would be structured... but you know he'll want guaranteed money in the $22M range (hence the Clement starting point,) with somewhere in the neighborhood of 80M promised in the deal.

    The guarantee will work out to a $2.5M dead money hit (if it's a simple amortization) per year we cut him early. The actual salary will make the total hit in same range we paid him as a franchised player last year, $8M/annum, for each year we keep him. That's the rough, 'order-of-magnitude' calculation on a Clement-like deal, assuming a whopping 30M in vanity money in years 7 and 8 - and by the way, skipping those 2 years costs us $5M in dead money:

    20M amortized bonus(es) = 2.5 a year
    2 M year 1 salary = 2M; total for year 1 = 4.5M

    Yr. 2-6: amortization = 2.5
    Yr. 2-6 sal. (avg.) = 5.6M
    Avg. Annual hit: $8.1 M

    Total paid by year 6: 2M sal., yr 1 + 28M yr2-6 +20M bonus = 50M

    Year 7 and 8: Avg 15M/year salary he will not get, for total 80M

    So, for the priviledge of wriggling out (if push comes to shove,) we pay $5M in dead money, with Asante gone after yr. 6

    Granted, all of the above is plugging in random numbers, and derived from an imaginary and greatly simplified version of the contract he's said he's seeking. I can not emphasize this enough - I'm just a guy with a calculator, not a cap maven. But it seems like these are something like the rough neighborhood numbers we're talking about.

    SO... is the above or something like it his real position, or the starting point from which we determine his real position? Can we rewrite some of his money in the form of incentives (playing time, INT.s, team wins, etc...?) Does he put any value on Super Bowl contention?

    On the other side, if the 8/80/22 formula is his real position, can we afford it? Yeah sure. Is he worth it? The guys in the FO can judge that better than any of us. And yeah okay, it would have helped his case to basically secure our super bowl and 19-0 season with that non-interception. But it doesn't hurt it THAT much - he is the player he is. He makes the play X% and misses it Y%. So that one play, in a big game, is more important than say the equivalent in week 5. But not THAT much more important.

    If he takes, say, 16M in guaranteed money, over 6 years, total contract value = 60M, that puts him in the same titular 10M/year APY territory as Clement, for bragging rights. But look what else happens:

    Yr. 1 signing bonus = 14M
    Yr. 1 salary = 2 M (= total 16M guaranteed);
    $4.33 M cap hit (2.33M amortization + 2M sal.)
    Yr. 2-3 2.33M/yr amort. + avg sal. $4.5M = $6.83 M cap hit/yr
    Yr. 4 2.33M amort. + sal. $8M = 10.33 M cap hit: a doable year, but probably time to think about a new deal from the Pats' POV.
    Yr 5 2.33M amort. + sal $10M = 12.33M cap hit - probably never happen
    Yr 6 2.33M amort. + sal $17M = 19.33M cap hit - mythical year

    Any way you slice it, the 10M APY deal gets exhorbitant eventually, IF the player is retained for the entirety of the deal. Of course, most players will restructure or ink a new deal before that happens, because they know the last year or two are always inflated.

    In the above scenario, the team gets hit with 2 vanity years worth of dead money, (total 4.66) if it comes to it. Still far from something you wish to happen, but it's the worst case.

    In exchange, they get Asante's services in years 1-4 for very liveable cap costs, except the 10.33M year 4. The Pats would end up shelling out 34M for 4 years, real cash money, with 4.66M dead money hitting the cap in the 5th year if they cut Samuel.

    Real cap guys can correct me on these grossly simplified back-of-the-envelope calculations.

    If Samuel can live with guaranteed $ bragging rights only approaching Clements', with the APY figure matching Clements, we can get 4 years' service, Samuel can get 34M real cash money plus a claim to a $10M/yr APY deal, and we can have annual cap hits of 4.33M, 6.83M, 6.83M and 10.33 M.

    So, worst case (no new deal) scenario, he hits the cap in the area of 5M, 7M, 7M, 10M, 5M (dead money in yr 5 when cut.) 34M gets you 4 productive years (plus the dead money hit).

    Okay. Enough mental masturbation. any or all of the numbers could be way off for the way these deals eventually get cut. The only point here is, the structure leaves you on a big hook at 22M guaranteed, and of course a smaller one at 16M guaranteed... translating to smaller cap hits, and a smaller dead money hit for cutting the guy prior to the vanity years.

    Naturally, that's not in Asante's interest. I just typed up a lot of numbers to basically say, it all depends if Asante wants to be able to SAY he got the best deal of any corner in the league, or if he truly believes he must GET the best deal of any corner in the league.

    Does he put any value on SB contention? That's the big question.

    I don't think we can compete with those teams willing to mortgage 6 or 7 years' of pretty high cap hits to keep the guy on-board. But we can make him an offer that sounds great in the press and makes him look good, and doesn't leave him anywhere near the poorhouse.

    'Nuff said, or more like way, way too much said.

    PFnV
  7. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    guys who are worth that much money don't drop superbowl game-sealing interceptions.
  8. BelichickFan

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    It was a tough catch but for a $100M man he has to catch it. The reality is that after the Philly game he made 1 INT the rest of the way and big plays are the biggest part of what separates him.
  9. CrazyDave

    CrazyDave Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Ding! Ding! Ding!
    We have a winner!
  10. tobias funke

    tobias funke Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    It's funny to me.

    Weeks after a Super Bowl.... no... a season, that proved that having the best secondary in the NFL doesn't win you games, Asante wants the richest deal for a CB ever.

    It's all about the pass rush. We will make do in the back.
  11. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Its adious Assante, good luck with the falcons with that contract, because I dont think even the Jets are going to pay that..
  12. Gwedd

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Buh Bye, Assante... see you.

    However, you might want to dial up Ty Law and ask how that mega-bucks signing with a losing team played out.

    Just sayin. Sometimes, money isn't the answer you think it will be. Being the best overall corner has to leave you with a hollow feeling if you never get back to a winning team, or the playoffs.

    It looks especially bad if you rake in the big check, and then fail to deliver. Sometimes, it's best to check the ego at the door.

    Respects,
  13. Disco Volante

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Hey, this seems logical.

    Welcome back Asante, can't wait to pay you for you above average work!
  14. JoeSixPat

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    I long ago stopped underestimating what bad teams will pay for good players.

    $30 mil guaranteed is Samuel's starting point - one expects he'll come down in negotiations if other teams come up.

    I'm thinking that the teams interested in him start at $20 mil and eventually they settle on $25 million guaranteed.

    The salary itself is almost academic. In this price range I'd expect the salary to be pretty low for the bulk of the contract.

    But cap hit wise stretching out $25 to $28 million won't dissuade too many teams who can add a dummy year or two to lower the cap.

    Is Asante worth it? Not to us and our system - but to some team, I think yes. And that team might regret finding out that Asante's style of play is best suited to our system as well.
  15. stevedogc

    stevedogc Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Well Asante better be careful, for that type of money the team that signs him may want him to reduce that 12 yard cushion he gives the WR at the line.
  16. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Why wouldn't he be looking for a better contract than Clements especially a week before free agency starts? From a CB perspective, he is the only game in town on the open market this offseason. In a league that has a lot of teams with a history of overspending on one player he isn't going to start on the low end of what he is looking for. He is going to shoot ridiculously high in his initial demands.
  17. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Linebacker, linebacker, linebacker!! Can the Pats please get younger and faster at this position.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2008
  18. Pats726

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    I guess with that, he'll be gone..with CBs franchised THIS is the year to make it big..and he wants that green. I am sure..one team will go for it all...not that it will help that team a lot, but over spending is what usually happens..Not here though. be bye..
  19. PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    We'll see what the numbers are once the game is over. This latest burst of hyperbole is his starting position.

    I doubt the guaranty goes past $20M.

    Christ, why not make it a 20 year 200M contract... I'm sure he'll still be fine in 2028.

    PFnV
  20. MrBigglesWorth

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    how much you think that potential cash was worth or how much money was lsot with that drop?
  21. cornhuskers_2002

    cornhuskers_2002 Rookie

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    couldn't they just give him 5 years at 6 million/year guaranteed with a bunch of LTBE incentives? with like 3 fake years on the deal at like 12, 14, 18 million or something? Then add some
    10 Million dollar roster bonus where he can be cut after year 5.
    I don't know if the incentives count against the cap... I basically have no idea what i am talking about but whatever
    8 years 84 million is what it would look like on paper
  22. PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    I guess the thing is there are lots of mechanisms to use... but you somehow have to get the 30M paid (in this latest formulation). Obviously, this is an opening posture, but still, he's just a good cornerback. Sure we need good corners, but how much do we need them?

    Or more to the point, does anybody need one that much, or even close to it?

    Eh. This is the kind of thing we talk about for months at a time, and then one day some team has him for 6 years, 15M guaranteed. Numbers tend to crunch down quite a bit once all is said and done.

    PFnV
  23. g-fresh

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Yep, Champ Bailey makes that catch, so does Cromartie, no way I would shell out mega bucks for a guy who choked when it counted most.
  24. #12

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    :eek: Can you imagine paying more for your CB than your HOF QB? Well he wasn't lying when he said he wanted to break the bank...looking for that mega deal. Good Luck Asante! Any team that shells out that kind of money or even has that kind of money to give to a CB, is not a contender so I'm not worried.
  25. PittPatriot

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed


    so would Q Jammer. I think SD poses the greatest threat to us by having an outstanding 2ndary and very potent pass rush.
    While we won't have a #1 corner next year, I hope we have a more formidable pass rush.
  26. jbb9s

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Patriots should get into the business of extending the players while they are under current contract before they become superstars (or think they are). I know losing Branch worked out for the best because of the Moss/Welker aquisitions, but in principle if guys were extended such as Asante and Branch kind of like Koppen has been, they would have essentially signed lesser contracts. I mean 2 years ago, you could have ripped up Asante's rookie deal and signed him at 5 years / 16 million and this thing would be a non-issue.
  27. nepatz11

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    I Love asante and think he is a very very good CB. Wish he would stay but for those numbers dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. ANyone dumb enough to give him that $ will get what they deserve.
  28. jbb9s

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    With #7 pick, the Patriots could plausibly get the #1 ranked defensive corner back in the draft which if executed properly, would become a #1 corner in a year or so.
  29. PatsFanInVa

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    Okay this isn't replying just to you, but to all the other guys saying "Quentin Jammer makes that catch... Antonio Cromartie makes that catch...."

    You are correct. I make that catch, say, one out of 1,000 times, because I can't jump worth beans.

    Cromartie/Jammer/Your Name Here makes that catch, say, 91.7 percent of the time, or whatever. Asante probably makes that catch about that same percent of the time. He chose a very bad time not to make that catch. However, you will have to demonstrate to me Cromartie or Jammer's super bowl performance record.

    It's definitely a "minus" on the Asante side of the ledger. It's a big play in a big game. But this silliness about this guy makes that catch, that guy makes that catch, is just bullcrap.

    I don't think Asante's worth the kind of money he wants. basically, no DB is worth that much. Hell, most QBs aren't.

    But there's a world of difference between the opening posture and the deal. As a fan, get used to him not being here anyway... a bad team will pay higher than us, and chances are the difference is persuasive.

    But he's not gone until someone's written the check.

    PFnV
  30. MoLewisrocks

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    Re: Samuel looking for $30 million guaranteed

    They tried that with both but were miles apart even then. Asante is like a lot of players, particularly WR's and CB's who have to have an invincible attitude to do what they do. He said no thanks. You gotta remember, 'Sante was a 4th round pick who hand't made much money but had 2 SB rings and a longstanding chip on his shoulder. Even a tough 2005 season didn't dissuade him. He approached 2006 as his make or break season and he learned to catch those damn balls he used to be all around. And coming off that season he was unsignable. Ditto Branch coming off a short season at the end of which the media decided he and not Brady deserved the credit for his tying Jerry Rice's receptions record in a SB. Oddly, Welker managed that in a loss this season - paired with the same QBand working out of the slot...while Deion has kinda disappeared into the mist in the great Northwest.

    The deal they offered him last fall he would have taken in 2005 - but no GM on the planet would have offered him a $6M AAV deal based on his 2005 performance. Based on the spin from his 2006 performance it no longer approached what he now saw inches from his grasp.
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