How Can We Judge Whether Our Receivers Are Any Good?

[Ring 6]

Not everything is an either or proposition. Lowe can be horrible whether or not Jones is bad.

Same with our receivers. Jones being replaced with Zappe isn't going to make Thornton be an elite receiver or guys like lowe elite OL.

It's like half this board never watched a single NFL game except for the Brady Patriots sometimes.

If you study the film 10 makes everyone worse.
How often do you see him throw a hot route against a blitz? How often do you see him move within the pocket to create an extra second and THEN MAKE THE THROW? Watch him. The receivers don’t have a chance because he doesn’t read and react on time. It’s not a matter of making anyone “elite” it’s a matter of executing the play the way it is designed. He just doesn’t do that.

 

[Ring 6]

This is the dumbest argument I keep seeing..

No one rationally beleives Juju is the same as say AJ Brown. Because both were technically #1 "wide" receivers on their team.

because people understand Kelce was the #1 option on that team and Juju got open off of that. Kelce was the one taking double coverages and the best defensive coverage.

just like the "OmG Brady NeVeR had EliTe ReCeIVers" when trying to downplay the position when he arguably has the greatest mismatch of all time in Gronkowski

people trying to make this argument like Juju is some elite #1 receiver akin to DK Metcalf and AJ brown. Just because his title was wide receiver

Who said he was AJ Brown or DK Metcalf?
You are calling an argument stupid that you made up and blaming someone else.

A team with Juju as their #1 WR won the SB. That’s a fact.
You seem afraid to accept that because you think it demeans an opinion you have. Well it’s a fact.

 

[RIpats88]

Who said he was AJ Brown or DK Metcalf?
You are calling an argument stupid that you made up and blaming someone else.

A team with Juju as their #1 WR won the SB. That’s a fact.
You seem afraid to accept that because you think it demeans an opinion you have. Well it’s a fact.

You know why you called Juju a #1 receiver. Don't deny it. Then as soon as Anyone calls you out on it you try and gaslight everyone.

So just so we are on the same page. Since Juju is a #1 receiver on a super bowl winning team you would be perfectly content running back the same offensive group next year with a new Quarterback. Correct?

Because after all we have a #1 receiver. Who lead his team to a Superbowl. There's no need to upgrade the position. We have our #1

 

[RIpats88]

If you study the film 10 makes everyone worse.
How often do you see him throw a hot route against a blitz? How often do you see him move within the pocket to create an extra second and THEN MAKE THE THROW? Watch him. The receivers don’t have a chance because he doesn’t read and react on time. It’s not a matter of making anyone “elite” it’s a matter of executing the play the way it is designed. He just doesn’t do that.

Douglas and Bourne seem to be just fine. Meyers is on his 5th QB (technically 6th with Brady) and seems to keep producing.

Good receivers show up whomever there QB is. You acting like there's no other teams in the NFL with bad QBs. Half the league has bad QBs. And yet you can easily discern if a player is talented or not. Mike Evans/Godwin have played with a slew of bad receivers. still put up numbers and ended up elite.

Juju/parker are never going to be more than average. And Thornton is going to suck whomever his QB.

I don't understand why you are so adamant to try and twist Thornton/juju/parker into being elite receivers just held back by bad QB play. Their stats may improve with a better QB but they are never going to be elite.

Only thing I can think of is it's to defend Bills poor WR evaluations. Because if he put together the perfect roster and it's just QB play well he can wash his hands of any blame.

Reality is the whole operation is rotten save for a few players

 

[Thelonious]

This thread asks a question with which only a blind man would struggle.

Pop Douglas has potential (if his luck would only turn a little on the injury front). Everyone else in the room is damned near worthless. Maybe they could rake leaves or squeegee the shower room walls: something along those lines.

 

[mgteich]

If you admit you aren’t capable of evaluating WRs hoe can you then evaluate WRs?

Douglas and Bourne seem to be just fine. Meyers is on his 5th QB (technically 6th with Brady) and seems to keep producing.

Good receivers show up whomever there QB is. You acting like there's no other teams in the NFL with bad QBs. Half the league has bad QBs. And yet you can easily discern if a player is talented or not. Mike Evans/Godwin have played with a slew of bad receivers. still put up numbers and ended up elite.

Juju/parker are never going to be more than average. And Thornton is going to suck whomever his QB.

I don't understand why you are so adamant to try and twist Thornton/juju/parker into being elite receivers just held back by bad QB play. Their stats may improve with a better QB but they are never going to be elite.

Only thing I can think of is it's to defend Bills poor WR evaluations. Because if he put together the perfect roster and it's just QB play well he can wash his hands of any blame.

Reality is the whole operation is rotten save for a few players

For 2024, we have Douglass, Shuster, Parker and Thornton. Shuster has a large guarantee.

It is NOT a matter of saying that Shuster and Parker are elite receivers. Given our situation, they are serviceable . IMO, Thornton is next to useless, I guess he has one more chance in camp with the new QB. There isn't much cost. Re-signing Bourne should be a very high priority. Hopefully, we will start free agency with Bourne, Douglass, Parker, Shuster, Thornton and Boutte. And, just like so many other teams, we will be looking to find a top WR.

 

[Ring 6]

You know why you called Juju a #1 receiver. Don't deny it. Then as soon as Anyone calls you out on it you try and gaslight everyone.

Wtf are you talking about? I called him KCs #1 WR because…..he was KCs #1 WR.
I’m not denying that at all I said. And it’s true.

So just so we are on the same page. Since Juju is a #1 receiver on a super bowl winning team you would be perfectly content running back the same offensive group next year with a new Quarterback. Correct?

Huh? Who said that?

Because after all we have a #1 receiver. Who lead his team to a Superbowl. There's no need to upgrade the position. We have our #1

Huh? Who said that?

 

[RIpats88]

Wtf are you talking about? I called him KCs #1 WR because…..he was KCs #1 WR.
I’m not denying that at all I said. And it’s true.

Huh? Who said that?



Huh? Who said that?

Please stop gaslighting. You continuously do this. Someone says juju is average. You continuously point out he's a #1 receiver on the chiefs in response.

Then if anyone challenges your statement. You turn around and act as if people are putting words in your mouth and you are just putting random facts out there.

So what was your purpose of responding Juju was KC #1 receiver to lancermans post? Just to spout a random fact?

You know exactly why you did it.

 

[RIpats88]

For 2024, we have Douglass, Shuster, Parker and Thornton. Shuster has a large guarantee.

It is NOT a matter of saying that Shuster and Parker are elite receivers. Given our situation, they are serviceable . IMO, Thornton is next to useless, I guess he has one more chance in camp with the new QB. There isn't much cost. Re-signing Bourne should be a very high priority. Hopefully, we will start free agency with Bourne, Douglass, Parker, Shuster, Thornton and Boutte. And, just like so many other teams, we will be looking to find a top WR.

With juju the jury is out regarding his knee imo. He could be cooked And I think Thornton is going to suck anywhere.

Douglas is probably a good #2 slot guy. And parker/Bourne are fine as #3 guys.

It's just in the context of them having to be #1 target they are not good. And the idea that you can't evaluate that they should not be #1 receiver is just incorrect. They are jags. Serviceable. But there's a reason the Dolphins/Chiefs had no problem letting them go and have had no problem replacing them.

You can evaluate a guys talent level regardless of the QB play. Mike Evans was elite no matter who he played with.

It would be like Brandon lafell/Hogan having to be #1 receivers. They were great players for us next to Gronkowski/Edelman. But if they had to be the #1 guy getting all the coverage? Pretty average.

 

[Hyped]

DeAndre Hopkins has: 11 games, 83 targets, 45 receptions, 699 yards, and 4TDs.

That is playing with Tannehill and Levis at QB (one 3 TD game with Levis...which also happened against my FFL team, but I digress).

Those numbers alone are better than all of these guys except for Bourne/Douglas:

2023 New England Patriots Rosters, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports | Pro-Football-Reference.com

And I don't think Hopkins is having a good year by his own standards.....

Doesn't matter....elite players produce regardless of circumstances. Sure their numbers might take a dip....but there is still production.

 

[Ring 6]

Douglas and Bourne seem to be just fine. Meyers is on his 5th QB (technically 6th with Brady) and seems to keep producing.

I don’t understand what you are saying here.

Good receivers show up whomever there QB is.

Just not true. They can’t throw to themselves.

[quiote]You acting like there's no other teams in the NFL with bad QBs. Half the league has bad QBs.

[/QUOTE]

Bad QBs are bad for different reasons. 10 is bad largely because he is a detriment to his receivers by not reading, deciding and throwing properly or on time.

[quite]And yet you can easily discern if a player is talented or not. Mike Evans/Godwin have played with a slew of bad receivers. still put up numbers and ended up elite.

[/QUOTE]
You can discern talent if you watch film. If you did you would see 10 is holding back the passing game and everyone of the receivers would be more productive with virtually any other Qb.

Juju/parker are never going to be more than average. And Thornton is going to suck whomever his QB.

Juju had a 111/1426/7 season. So he already has been far more than average.
Parker had a 72/1202/9
Thornton hadn’t played enough to judge what he could ever be.

I don't understand why you are so adamant to try and twist Thornton/juju/parker into being elite receivers just held back by bad QB play.

What is the point of having a discussion if you are going to lie about my viewpoint. I never came close to even implying they are “elite” so all you are doing here is lying to add hyperbole and distract from the real point, which is that WHATEVER THEY ARE THEY BEING HELD BACK TREMENDOUSLY BY THE QB.

Their stats may improve with a better QB but they are never going to be elite.

I don’t care about stats or “elite” I care about a good offense. And by far the biggest thing preventing that is the QB. An average QB would have this team above .500 without a question and a good one would make it even better.
Receivers are irrelevant if the qb can’t execute the play.

Only thing I can think of is it's to defend Bills poor WR evaluations. Because if he put together the perfect roster and it's just QB play well he can wash his hands of any blame.

Another major problem with this board. People like you have an ulterior motive to your arguments which you therefore assume others do.
I comment on what I see, regardless of preconceived notions, hopes, biases, or trying to tell half a story in order to win some kind of larger cosmic argument.
You should try to do the same.

Reality is the whole operation is rotten save for a few players

Just not true. At its worst with just a competant (not even average) QB this team has a winning record. If you replace 10 with any other starting caliber QB in the NFL AT LEAST the games vs the giants, colts, redskins and raiders are wins.

Yes this is not a championship caliber team with a good qb but it is only a terrible team because of the QB.

 

[RIpats88]

DeAndre Hopkins has: 11 games, 83 targets, 45 receptions, 699 yards, and 4TDs.

That is playing with Tannehill and Levis at QB (one 3 TD game with Levis...which also happened against my FFL team, but I digress).

Those numbers alone are better than all of these guys except for Bourne/Douglas:

2023 New England Patriots Rosters, Stats, Schedule, Team Draftees, Injury Reports | Pro-Football-Reference.com

And I don't think Hopkins is having a good year by his own standards.....

Doesn't matter....elite players produce regardless of circumstances. Sure their numbers might take a dip....but there is still production.

This.

It's as if posters here never watched an NFL game outside of the Patriots before.

Can name plenty of receivers who put up numbers with crappy QB play the last 10-20 years. Sure their stats may dip, but you can see the production is there.

 

[Ring 6]

Please stop gaslighting. You continuously do this. Someone says juju is average. You continuously point out he's a #1 receiver on the chiefs in response.

Can you show me where someone said juju is average and I said “he’s a #1 receiver in response”? Please show me because I am telling you it NEVER HAPPENED and you, in fact, are “gaslighting”

Then if anyone challenges your statement. You turn around and act as if people are putting words in your mouth and you are just putting random facts out there.

You LITERALLY ARE PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

So what was your purpose of responding Juju was KC #1 receiver to lancermans post? Just to spout a random fact?

You know exactly why you did it.

This was the exchange

Kelce was the number 1 pass catcher. Juju was a glorified #2

Explain “glorified” and explain how this negates the fact tag he was WR1 on a SB champ

No one said he was the #1 pass catcher , kelce is not a WR, so the response we irrelevant to the fact that jjss was their #1 wr

if we were discussing KCs OTs and you responded that Thuney is their best OL I would correct that as well.


Again, unlike you I am not here to try to make cryptic arguments to imply things without saying them. If I want to say it I say it. My comments about JJSS in KC are about JJSS in KC.

 

[RIpats88]

Explain “glorified” and explain how this negates the fact tag he was WR1 on a SB champ

Here you go ring6. Replying to lancermans saying he was a #2 behind Kelce.

Since you called me out for making up you never said he was a #1 in response to someone

 

[RIpats88]

You proved my point in your previous post responding to me. I'm not gonna argue it all.

But you are going off about watching film and how Mac is holding these guys back and how Juju once had a 1400 yard season. So that was truly the purpose of you arguing with lancermans about the semantics of a #1 WR

All I'm saying is while Mac is bad this is not a good group of pass catchers. You are the only one arguing they actually are.

It's hard to believe but the QB play can be poor. But a good QB is not suddenly turning Juju back into his prime self with him putting up 1400 yards.

Mac is holding juju back and yet Douglas/Bourne are just fine. Good WR find production with ANYONE

 

[mgteich]

I don’t understand what you are saying here.


Just not true. They can’t throw to themselves.

At its worst with just a competent (not even average) QB this team has a winning record. If you replace 10 with any other starting caliber QB in the NFL AT LEAST the games vs the giants, colts, redskins and raiders are wins.

Yes this is not a championship caliber team with a good qb but it is only a terrible team because of the QB.
[/QUOTE]

this

 

[RIpats88]

At its worst with just a competent (not even average) QB this team has a winning record. If you replace 10 with any other starting caliber QB in the NFL AT LEAST the games vs the giants, colts, redskins and raiders are wins.

Yes this is not a championship caliber team with a good qb but it is only a terrible team because of the QB.

this
[/QUOTE]

Isn't this two separate arguments though?

No one is disputing the fact that the team would be better with competent QB play. Whether that is above .500 is up for debate but they certainly are not 2-11

The thread is trying to make the argument that we can't evaluate the receiving talent because of the QB play.

Both are totally separate arguments and have nothing to do with the other.

 

[Ring 6]

Here you go ring6. Replying to lancermans saying he was a #2 behind Kelce.

Since you called me out for making up you never said he was a #1 in response to someone

That’s not what you said.

You said

Please stop gaslighting. You continuously do this. Someone says juju is average. You continuously point out he's a #1 receiver on the chiefs in response.

In this exchange, the poster changed WR to “pass catcher”

I pointed no one called him that, and he was in fact the #1 WR.

Not sure why you have an issue with accuracy.

 

[RIpats88]

That’s not what you said.

You said


In this exchange, the poster changed WR to “pass catcher”

I pointed no one called him that, and he was in fact the #1 WR.

Not sure why you have an issue with accuracy.

at the end of the day who cares about the semantics. receiver vs. pass catcher. Juju was not a #1 target which at the end of the day is all he should've been here with the patriots. not our #1 option.

maybe he does better next to a #1 receiver we draft with a new QB prospect. But doesn't change the fact that he is who he is. which is not a #1 target. teams are not game planning for Juju.

 

[Ring 6]

this

Isn't this two separate arguments though?

No one is disputing the fact that the team would be better with competent QB play. Whether that is above .500 is up for debate but they certainly are not 2-11

The thread is trying to make the argument that we can't evaluate the receiving talent because of the QB play.

Both are totally separate arguments and have nothing to do with the other.

If the problem with the qb can be summarized as:

He is slow to read and react, missing windows where receivers are open, hesitant to throw the ball more than 5 yards down the field, worries more about the rush than making a play and doesn’t throw to the open receiver his progressions said he should have, then chokes and under throws east TDs for picks.
All of which is dead on.

How can you judge the receivers?

Or better put, hie ARE you? What criteria are you using to determine they aren’t doing their job but the qb isn’t delivering?

The only way I know is to watch the take and the tape tells me there are plays that should be made but 10 isn’t making them.