Someone explain to me why what the Pats did was sacrilege?

[upstater1]

I don't get it, in one area you say it's legal, in another you say it's illegal, (thank you for using caps for emphasis, helps my thick head). You are full of inconsistencies, for as soon as you say "you have a thick head" you then say "I don't insult people on this board." Seems to me you just did.

"Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

I said I don't often insult people. I obviously started with an insult because I explained to you how the NFL feels about cheating multiple times, and you stll haven't understood it. I never said videotaping was legal. I said using a videotape to steal signs was legal. Two very different things.

Even the rule you posted makes absolutely no mention of stealing signals from a videotape and emplying them in a game. It only mentions the actual act of videotaping. normally, I would call this a technicality and say cheating is implied by the prohibition, but in this case the NFL is on record as saying it is LEGAL (sorry) to steal signals from a videotape and employ them in a game. The NFL is making the distinction between what is LEGAL and ILLEGAL, not me. If it were up to me, I'd be more consistent, and I wouldn't be hypocritical, as the NFL apparently is.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I can understand your position, but I'd say it also makes a lot of assumptions about why and how this was done. We don't know the whole story. Belichick, I'm speculating, was precisely aware of some of the fallout of this, but he did it anyway. Not out of sheer arrogance (though that maybe plays a part) but also because the NFL adopts double standards when trying to level the competitive playing field, and so it doesn't surprise me that this is all coming to a head IN THE VERY FIRST WEEK of the season. Lots of stuff goes on behind the scenes. I'm not entirely convinced that the Patriots didn't know this was coming. Let's see what the fallout is.

Maybe, although Belichick did apologize today. Given his MO and history this seems to me to at least be something of an acknowledgement that there is room for debate about whether they were inside the rules.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

I said I don't often insult people. I obviously started with an insult because I explained to you how the NFL feels about cheating multiple times, and you stll haven't understood it. I never said videotaping was legal. I said using a videotape to steal signs was legal. Two very different things.

Even the rule you posted makes absolutely no mention of stealing signals from a videotape and emplying them in a game. It only mentions the actual act of videotaping. normally, I would call this a technicality and say cheating is implied by the prohibition, but in this case the NFL is on record as saying it is LEGAL (sorry) to steal signals from a videotape and employ them in a game. The NFL is making the distinction between what is LEGAL and ILLEGAL, not me. If it were up to me, I'd be more consistent, and I wouldn't be hypocritical, as the NFL apparently is.

Read your post again, you didn't say "I don't often insult people" you said "I don't insult people on this board". Just sayin. And I never said that taking signals from a videotape was illegal, what I provided was a scenario where using videotaping in a game could provide a competitive advantage IN THAT GAME. I didn't say that was what the NFL is worried about, someone posed the question how videotaping might be used for THAT game, I just gave the scenario. I don't know if that's what the Pats were planning obviously, but I, like others, are disappointed my team feels the need (as do others apparently) to so blatantly break the rules.

 

[upstater1]

Maybe, although Belichick did apologize today. Given his MO and history this seems to me to at least be something of an acknowledgement that there is room for debate about whether they were inside the rules.

Actually, part of that release said that there was maybe a difference in interpretation of the rules. Then he said he apologized to Patriots staff and players (for dragging them into this?)

 

[upstater1]

Read your post again, you didn't say "I don't often insult people" you said "I don't insult people on this board". Just sayin. And I never said that taking signals from a videotape was illegal, what I provided was a scenario where using videotaping in a game could provide a competitive advantage IN THAT GAME. I didn't say that was what the NFL is worried about, someone posed the question how videotaping might be used for THAT game, I just gave the scenario. I don't know if that's what the Pats were planning obviously, but I, like others, are disappointed my team feels the need (as do others apparently) to so blatantly break the rules.

You keep calling them cheaters. That's where I'm saying your position holds no water. Cheating in this way is not illegal. Only breaking the rule is, by definition, illegal. So is bringing a Sharpie onto the football field.

See the difference?

And why would you care so much about a broken rule? The Patriots also broke a rule when they signed Bill Belichick. Were you disappointed in the decision to hire Bill?

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Actually, part of that release said that there was maybe a difference in interpretation of the rules. Then he said he apologized to Patriots staff and players (for dragging them into this?)

I think it was to "everyone involved," but then he singled out owners, staff, and players.

How often have you heard Belichick apologize for anything. I'm heartened by the interpretation issue, which is giving me some hope there will be some room for honest debate. I'm disheartened by the apology -- just doesn't sound like something you'd even consider saying if you thought you were 100 percent in the right or had engineered this to expose a double standard.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

You keep calling them cheaters. That's where I'm saying your position holds no water. Cheating in this way is not illegal. Only breaking the rule is, by definition, illegal. So is bringing a Sharpie onto the football field.

See the difference?

And why would you care so much about a broken rule? The Patriots also broke a rule when they signed Bill Belichick. Were you disappointed in the decision to hire Bill?

Read your post above again and tell me if you don't sound like a teenager caught with "someone else's" pot. It was illegal, but they're not cheating, breaking the rules is illegal, but not cheating. One definition of cheating is: to violate rules dishonestly. I would say the Pats violated the rules dishonestly, that's my opinion.

I'm a football official, I like when the rules are followed.

No, I'm glad they hired Bill, and they paid a penalty for the rule they broke, as they will in this case, which I am sure I will be disappointed about. The penalty they paid for hiring Bill was worth it. Not sure what the advantage was in this case, so I'm not sure if the penalty will be worth it.

 

[upstater1]

Read your post above again and tell me if you don't sound like a teenager caught with "someone else's" pot. It was illegal, but they're not cheating, breaking the rules is illegal, but not cheating. One definition of cheating is: to violate rules dishonestly. I would say the Pats violated the rules dishonestly, that's my opinion.

You don't get it. I've said repeatedly here that, were it up to me, I'd make a clear distinction in the interest of not being hypocritical. I'd say, VIDEOTAPING IS CHEATING. But it's the NFL that has come out and PUBLICLY said there is a difference between VIDEOTAPING and using that video to steal signals. The NFL has publicly said that one is illegal (i.e. making a videotape) while the other is legal (i.e. using a videotape to steal signals). It't the NFL that is acting like a teenager. Not me. Seems to me you have a problem with the NFL. So do I.

I'm a football official, I like when the rules are followed.

What does that have to do with anything? Are you telling me you don't understand the difference between breaking the rules and cheating? Bringing a sharpie onto the field is breaking the rules. But it's not cheating. If you, as a football official, are going to accuse someone of cheating for bringing a pen onto the field, well then you're an idiot and don't belong anywhere near a football field .(Notice, I didn't call you an idiot).

No, I'm glad they hired Bill, and they paid a penalty for the rule they broke, as they will in this case, which I am sure I will be disappointed about. The penalty they paid for hiring Bill was worth it. Not sure what the advantage was in this case, so I'm not sure if the penalty will be worth it.

You don't get it. I've said repeatedly here that, were it up to me, I'd make a clear distinction in the interest of not being hypocritical. I'd say, VIDEOTAPING IS CHEATING. But it's the NFL that has come out and PUBLICLY said there is a difference between VIDEOTAPING and using that video to steal signals. The NFL has publicly said that one is illegal (i.e. making a videotape) while the other is legal (i.e. using a videotape to steal signals). It't the NFL that is acting like a teenager. Not me. Seems to me you have a problem with the NFL. So do I.


What does that have to do with anything? Are you telling me you don't understand the difference between breaking the rules and cheating? Bringing a sharpie onto the field is breaking the rules. But it's not cheating. If you, as a football official, are going to accuse someone of cheating for bringing a pen onto the field, well then you're an idiot and don't belong anywhere near a football field .(Notice, I didn't call you an idiot).

 

[MiChargers]

Read your post above again and tell me if you don't sound like a teenager caught with "someone else's" pot. It was illegal, but they're not cheating, breaking the rules is illegal, but not cheating. One definition of cheating is: to violate rules dishonestly. I would say the Pats violated the rules dishonestly, that's my opinion.

I'm a football official, I like when the rules are followed.

No, I'm glad they hired Bill, and they paid a penalty for the rule they broke, as they will in this case, which I am sure I will be disappointed about. The penalty they paid for hiring Bill was worth it. Not sure what the advantage was in this case, so I'm not sure if the penalty will be worth it.

Grogan,
You're on point. There's no use making this arguement, as this guy has split hairs so many times, he doesn't even know what he's saying anymore. He continues to try to make a comparison that the conduct at hand is comparable to using a Sharpie pen or a uniform violation. He obviously has never played competitive sports and doesnt recognize cheating when it's right in front of him.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

You don't get it. I've said repeatedly here that, were it up to me, I'd make a clear distinction in the interest of not being hypocritical. I'd say, VIDEOTAPING IS CHEATING. But it's the NFL that has come out and PUBLICLY said there is a difference between VIDEOTAPING and using that video to steal signals. The NFL has publicly said that one is illegal (i.e. making a videotape) while the other is legal (i.e. using a videotape to steal signals). It't the NFL that is acting like a teenager. Not me. Seems to me you have a problem with the NFL. So do I.

We disagree on the above point.


What does that have to do with anything? Are you telling me you don't understand the difference between breaking the rules and cheating? Bringing a sharpie onto the field is breaking the rules. But it's not cheating. If you, as a football official, are going to accuse someone of cheating for bringing a pen onto the field, well then you're an idiot and don't belong anywhere near a football field .(Notice, I didn't call you an idiot).

You asked me why I'm concerned about a rule being broken, I told you why I am concerned about a rule being broken, I have a propensity to follow the rules, and dislike it when they aren't followed. I can't believe you don't allow for the possibility that breaking the rules is cheating. I would not equate videotaping the opposition's defensive signals to bringing a sharpie on the field, as you have repeatedly done. Talk about arguments that don't hold water.

 

[upstater1]

Grogan,
You're on point. There's no use making this arguement, as this guy has split hairs so many times, he doesn't even know what he's saying anymore. He continues to try to make a comparison that the conduct at hand is comparable to using a Sharpie pen or a uniform violation. He obviously has never played competitive sports and doesnt recognize cheating when it's right in front of him.

Another dummy. Show me where I made the comparison of making a videotape to using a Sharpie. Never made that comparison. But you're just too dumb to read. Oh, and I'm 6'3 215 pounds, former DE and TE, I would would wipe you out if you ever came near me. That may seem like all talk, but you're the chump making assumptions about who I am. Thankfully, the worm has turned and ESPN, Mortensen, and others have made the exact same point that I have about the Phins using signals last year.

And when the Chargers get their butts whipped this week, you're not going to be man enough to come back here and take your poison, are you?

 

[upstater1]

You asked me why I'm concerned about a rule being broken, I told you why I am concerned about a rule being broken, I have a propensity to follow the rules, and dislike it when they aren't followed. I can't believe you don't allow for the possibility that breaking the rules is cheating. I would not equate videotaping the opposition's defensive signals to bringing a sharpie on the field, as you have repeatedly done. Talk about arguments that don't hold water.

I know you're head is dense and you have trouble reading. But I never said that there is no possibility that breaking the rules is cheating. Never said that. And I never compared taping the opposition's video signals to bringing a sharpie on the field. Never wrote that either. The sharpie example was obvious to anyone with a brain. It was used to disprove your dumb idiotic idea that breaking the rules was cheating. I offered it as an example of when breaking a rule is not cheating. I don't expect you to understand what I write, since you and Charger fan have proven your utter stupidity over and over.

The NFL has had its say: Breaking this particular rule is NOT cheating when the NFL has expressly said that you can use the videotape for competitive advantage on the field.

 

[MiChargers]

Another dummy. Show me where I made the comparison of making a videotape to using a Sharpie. Never made that comparison. But you're just too dumb to read. Oh, and I'm 6'3 215 pounds, former DE and TE, I would would wipe you out if you ever came near me. That may seem like all talk, but you're the chump making assumptions about who I am. Thankfully, the worm has turned and ESPN, Mortensen, and others have made the exact same point that I have about the Phins using signals last year.

And when the Chargers get their butts whipped this week, you're not going to be man enough to come back here and take your poison, are you?

Of course I will. I will have to sort out all the excuses you have for why you lost. Oh, and Im 6'4" 250 pounds....so, now what? You're right, its more talk. And you have made that comparison twice about the sharpie twice on this very thread. You also said you dont insult people, yet you got called out and never responded to the other guys post. Do you wonder why your own fellow Pats fans are having a problem with your arguement? This has nothing to do with Pats vs. Chargers. It's just right vs. wrong. Period.

 

[upstater1]

Of course I will. I will have to sort out all the excuses you have for why you lost. Oh, and Im 6'4" 250 pounds....so, now what? You're right, its more talk. And you have made that comparison twice about the sharpie twice on this very thread. You also said you dont insult people, yet you got called out and never responded to the other guys post. Do you wonder why your own fellow Pats fans are having a problem with your arguement? This has nothing to do with Pats vs. Chargers. It's just right vs. wrong. Period.

I responded to everyone of his posts.

Show me where I compare bringing a sharpie onto the field to making a videotape. Come on, I dare ya.

Not only do 99% of Pats' fans agree with me, but Chris Mortenson and at least one other ESPN writer do too. The NFL can't have i both ways, making videotaping illegal while making the use of the videotape for cheating purposes legal. The NFL has said that cheating is legal.

 

[Patti37]

It does give you an advantage, it's been covered in other threads, stop saying this. You can review the tape at half time, compare it to polaroids of defensive formations prior to the snap, and after the snap, and tell from there what the signs mean. There is plenty of time, no need to edit the tape, you turn on the camera when the coach is about to signal, you turn it off when he's done signalling. Not that complicated.

This isn't a "sacrilege", it's against the rules, it's an attempt to gain a competitive edge. Yes, others do it, the Pats got caught. But there is no denying they did something wrong, I don't subscribe to the "everyone else is doing it", I wouldn't let my son get away with that logic, never mind a grown man who knows the rules of his profession.

First, If you break the rules, you pay the consequences...but

I will say it again because I still do not understand how videotaping gives you an advantage. First, you have to figure out which guy is sending in the defensive signals...how do you know where to point the video camera...on all defensive coaches. Once you determine the correct personnel sending in the signal (if you can), then at half time, in 12 minutes you are able to review the tape and poloroids to figure out what signals apply to which formations.

Sorry but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I would love to hear from BB on how this helped him...I know that will never happen.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

I know you're head is dense and you have trouble reading. But I never said that there is no possibility that breaking the rules is cheating. Never said that. And I never compared taping the opposition's video signals to bringing a sharpie on the field. Never wrote that either. The sharpie example was obvious to anyone with a brain. It was used to disprove your dumb idiotic idea that breaking the rules was cheating. I offered it as an example of when breaking a rule is not cheating. I don't expect you to understand what I write, since you and Charger fan have proven your utter stupidity over and over.

The NFL has had its say: Breaking this particular rule is NOT cheating when the NFL has expressly said that you can use the videotape for competitive advantage on the field.

You listen to too much WEEI, you think if you name call and shout louder your points are better made. I have not once called you anything and only referred to my opinions and the facts as I understand them, but keep calling everyone else dummies, cause it'll make you sound smart.

I'm not a Charger fan, I was born and grew up in the Boston area and have lived here all of my life save for college.

A Pats fan CAN have a problem with the tactics the Pats have employed here and be disappointed and feel like they cheated and still be a fan. Those positions are not mutually exclusive (pretty good for a thick head dummy huh?).

You can continue to split hairs and defend your position. You can continue to make arguments about videotape usage being legal, and if you go back and look, I have never said it was illegal. You can continue to use analogies like the sharpie, and then run from them when called on it.

I can continue to feel like what the Pats did, knowing the rules, and then deciding to ignore them (inarguable), was cheating. I can hope that the penalty is not too severe, and that they continue to win in the fashion they did last weekend, and make everyone else in the league eat sh*t about this whole episode.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

You keep calling them cheaters. That's where I'm saying your position holds no water. Cheating in this way is not illegal. Only breaking the rule is, by definition, illegal. So is bringing a Sharpie onto the football field.

See the difference?

And why would you care so much about a broken rule? The Patriots also broke a rule when they signed Bill Belichick. Were you disappointed in the decision to hire Bill?

"Cheating in this way is not illegal. Only breaking the rule is, by definition, illegal. So is bringing a Sharpie onto the football field."

If that isn't making them equivalent, you are either a lawyer, or Bill Clinton (who is also a lawyer).

 

[MiChargers]

You listen to too much WEEI, you think if you name call and shout louder your points are better made. I have not once called you anything and only referred to my opinions and the facts as I understand them, but keep calling everyone else dummies, cause it'll make you sound smart.

I'm not a Charger fan, I was born and grew up in the Boston area and have lived here all of my life save for college.

A Pats fan CAN have a problem with the tactics the Pats have employed here and be disappointed and feel like they cheated and still be a fan. Those positions are not mutually exclusive (pretty good for a thick head dummy huh?).

You can continue to split hairs and defend your position. You can continue to make arguments about videotape usage being legal, and if you go back and look, I have never said it was illegal. You can continue to use analogies like the sharpie, and then run from them when called on it.
I can continue to feel like what the Pats did, knowing the rules, and then deciding to ignore them (inarguable), was cheating. I can hope that the penalty is not too severe, and that they continue to win in the fashion they did last weekend, and make everyone else in the league eat sh*t about this whole episode.

Grogan, again you're on point. I obviously dont need to argue with Upstart, there's enough fellow Pats fans to handle it. If Upstart backpedaled anymore he'd be back at the Schwinn Factory.

 

[MiChargers]

"Cheating in this way is not illegal. Only breaking the rule is, by definition, illegal. So is bringing a Sharpie onto the football field."

If that isn't making them equivalent, you are either a lawyer, or Bill Clinton (who is also a lawyer).

Again... Upstate (Upstart...whatever) is called out yet again. Owned.

 

[upstater1]

You listen to too much WEEI, you think if you name call and shout louder your points are better made. I have not once called you anything and only referred to my opinions and the facts as I understand them, but keep calling everyone else dummies, cause it'll make you sound smart.

I'm not a Charger fan, I was born and grew up in the Boston area and have lived here all of my life save for college.

A Pats fan CAN have a problem with the tactics the Pats have employed here and be disappointed and feel like they cheated and still be a fan. Those positions are not mutually exclusive (pretty good for a thick head dummy huh?).

You can continue to split hairs and defend your position. You can continue to make arguments about videotape usage being legal, and if you go back and look, I have never said it was illegal. You can continue to use analogies like the sharpie, and then run from them when called on it.

I can continue to feel like what the Pats did, knowing the rules, and then deciding to ignore them (inarguable), was cheating. I can hope that the penalty is not too severe, and that they continue to win in the fashion they did last weekend, and make everyone else in the league eat sh*t about this whole episode.

I'm calling you a dummy because of your dumb accusations. You say I compared the sharpie to cheating with videotape. I never did that. I even explained in my previous post what I did. But you chose to ignore it. OK, you're not dumb, you're just an a-hole. how's that. How else would you define it when someone says, this is what the NFL says, and the other person can't get it through their thick head or else refuses to admit it? I'll say it again, you're not dumb, you're just an a-hole.