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Someone explain to me why what the Pats did was sacrilege?


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It does give you an advantage, it's been covered in other threads, stop saying this. You can review the tape at half time, compare it to polaroids of defensive formations prior to the snap, and after the snap, and tell from there what the signs mean. There is plenty of time, no need to edit the tape, you turn on the camera when the coach is about to signal, you turn it off when he's done signalling. Not that complicated. .
Not all that complicated...BUT it takes time...and in 12-15 minutes??/ THAt is laughable...Yes...if halftime was a few hours long...yes..it's been covered...in fantasy world..BUT not in teh reality of it. Sounds logical all that you said..BUT in practice..NO WAY!!
 
Upstate, I take absolutely no "glee" in this situation. In fact, if you remember I posted that I hoped it wasnt true. I get no satisfaction from it....it was wrong and I just dont want it to go on. That's it.

I really don't care about your personal emotions or anyone's emotions in this. I'm just letting you guys know that I'm not the only one that noticed the NFL was perfectly fine with stolen signals off a tape. Sean Salisbury noticed, Czarnecki did, Mortensen, Solomon Wilcots, Adam Schein, and many others. You guys are arguing against yourselves now that a great many agree with us that the NFL screwed up by legitimizing the stealing of signals off a videotape.
 
Key word there is the "form" in which you obtain it. Like it or not. If any team is caught doing the same, they should be punished. Why do you think everyone hates the Pats? The Yankees?...yeah. I think most NFL fans have respect for the Pats. Im not buying into your "woe is me" stance.

Here again, you're wrong. The league doesn't give a damn in what form you obtain it. They only don't want you producing it. The league already said it's fine with using tape to steal signals. It makes no difference to the league if you're using hand-drawn caricatures or videotape. Both are legal.
 
Here again, you're wrong. The league doesn't give a damn in what form you obtain it. They only don't want you producing it. The league already said it's fine with using tape to steal signals. It makes no difference to the league if you're using hand-drawn caricatures or videotape. Both are legal.


Ugghh. The "form" is not the "format." The form is the means in which you obtain it. Try not to backpedal on any more issues this time. Let's just leave it at this....the Pats screwed up, got caught (not the first time), and what they did is wrong. Now accept the punishment (if there is any) and sack up and be a man.
 
Given that we really do not know what was on the tape, although we can make some pretty decent guesses, here are some honest, logical observations from someone removed from this and not wishing any schadenfreude on you guys:

1. There must be some value in the activity, otherwise Belichick would not have done it.

2. The value must be greater than most people realize in order for Belichick to continue the activity after nearly being "caught" several times in the past as well as being told explicitly by the league not to do it this season.

3. The tape was confiscated sometime in the first half so unless there was some real time digesting of the information, I don't believe the Patriots were able to make any use of the information obtained from videotaping during last week's Jets game.

I think that we as fans of the sport will never know the truth about this matter since Goodell will issue his punishment and Belichick will take. Belichick will never certainly disclose to anyone else how it was used and how useful it really was. Life will go on.

In terms of offering an analogy why this is not tolerated while watching for defensive tendencies and stealing signals using just your eyes and brains is acceptable, let me present this:

In casino gambling, it is not against the law or the rules to count cards in Blackjack using your eyes and brains. Yes, the casinos hate it and they can ban you from playing for any reason since it is private property, but they can't make it illegal. However, if you use any "device" to assist in the card counting, even pencil & paper, that is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it. Card counting in blackjack is pretty common; it's just that there are few really good card counters. But most people playing have a general feel on each shoe dealt if a lot of aces and high cards have been dealt or not. They can get more accurate by implementing some count using their eyes and brains. But once they use something else to assist in that activity, then it's illegal. As a casino, you don't even have to prove that it helped the blackjack player... you just have to prove that they used something other than their brains and eyes.

I only bring this analogy up because a lot of people seem be caught up in the argument that everyone else does it by lip reading, having a backup guy spy on the defensive coaches from the sidelines, etc. so what's the difference when you videotape it? I hope by this example you can see the difference.

Anyways, here's hoping that this gets resolved quickly so we can all get back to talking football.
 
Given that we really do not know what was on the tape, although we can make some pretty decent guesses, here are some honest, logical observations from someone removed from this and not wishing any schadenfreude on you guys:

1. There must be some value in the activity, otherwise Belichick would not have done it.

2. The value must be greater than most people realize in order for Belichick to continue the activity after nearly being "caught" several times in the past as well as being told explicitly by the league not to do it this season.

3. The tape was confiscated sometime in the first half so unless there was some real time digesting of the information, I don't believe the Patriots were able to make any use of the information obtained from videotaping during last week's Jets game.

I think that we as fans of the sport will never know the truth about this matter since Goodell will issue his punishment and Belichick will take. Belichick will never certainly disclose to anyone else how it was used and how useful it really was. Life will go on.

In terms of offering an analogy why this is not tolerated while watching for defensive tendencies and stealing signals using just your eyes and brains is acceptable, let me present this:

In casino gambling, it is not against the law or the rules to count cards in Blackjack using your eyes and brains. Yes, the casinos hate it and they can ban you from playing for any reason since it is private property, but they can't make it illegal. However, if you use any "device" to assist in the card counting, even pencil & paper, that is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it. Card counting in blackjack is pretty common; it's just that there are few really good card counters. But most people playing have a general feel on each shoe dealt if a lot of aces and high cards have been dealt or not. They can get more accurate by implementing some count using their eyes and brains. But once they use something else to assist in that activity, then it's illegal. As a casino, you don't even have to prove that it helped the blackjack player... you just have to prove that they used something other than their brains and eyes.

I only bring this analogy up because a lot of people seem be caught up in the argument that everyone else does it by lip reading, having a backup guy spy on the defensive coaches from the sidelines, etc. so what's the difference when you videotape it? I hope by this example you can see the difference.

Anyways, here's hoping that this gets resolved quickly so we can all get back to talking football.


Bolts Fan, props for best post on this forum. And not because youre a Chargers fan, but you gave a fair and objective view....that makes sense. It seems alot of Pats fans cant decipher the difference. And the comparison to blackjack is right on.
 
Given that we really do not know what was on the tape, although we can make some pretty decent guesses, here are some honest, logical observations from someone removed from this and not wishing any schadenfreude on you guys:

1. There must be some value in the activity, otherwise Belichick would not have done it.

2. The value must be greater than most people realize in order for Belichick to continue the activity after nearly being "caught" several times in the past as well as being told explicitly by the league not to do it this season.

3. The tape was confiscated sometime in the first half so unless there was some real time digesting of the information, I don't believe the Patriots were able to make any use of the information obtained from videotaping during last week's Jets game.

I think that we as fans of the sport will never know the truth about this matter since Goodell will issue his punishment and Belichick will take. Belichick will never certainly disclose to anyone else how it was used and how useful it really was. Life will go on.

In terms of offering an analogy why this is not tolerated while watching for defensive tendencies and stealing signals using just your eyes and brains is acceptable, let me present this:

In casino gambling, it is not against the law or the rules to count cards in Blackjack using your eyes and brains. Yes, the casinos hate it and they can ban you from playing for any reason since it is private property, but they can't make it illegal. However, if you use any "device" to assist in the card counting, even pencil & paper, that is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it. Card counting in blackjack is pretty common; it's just that there are few really good card counters. But most people playing have a general feel on each shoe dealt if a lot of aces and high cards have been dealt or not. They can get more accurate by implementing some count using their eyes and brains. But once they use something else to assist in that activity, then it's illegal. As a casino, you don't even have to prove that it helped the blackjack player... you just have to prove that they used something other than their brains and eyes.

I only bring this analogy up because a lot of people seem be caught up in the argument that everyone else does it by lip reading, having a backup guy spy on the defensive coaches from the sidelines, etc. so what's the difference when you videotape it? I hope by this example you can see the difference.

Anyways, here's hoping that this gets resolved quickly so we can all get back to talking football.


Actually you can be banned from a casino for "counting cards" even if you can do it in your head. Your example is still noted just pointing out that while the point is valid the example isn't totally true.

I will say this however, apparently many if not all teams record the D signals with video and it ISN'T illegal. Where the Pats screwed up and "apparently" violated the rule is the person filming was on the field. So the "electronic" advantage example you put forth IMO isn't really valid in this case since everyone apparently uses the same method except from a different angle. My only guess is the Pats did it on the field (If they DID in fact do anything) it was because they were not able to get the "angle" for the D coaches from any of the other places teams usually do this. Stupid for them and should take their punishment if found guilty.

For the life of me I cannot figure out WHY the D captain cannot have a radio helmet and the D signals can be transmitted like the O signals. Does not make sense to me.
 
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Given that we really do not know what was on the tape, although we can make some pretty decent guesses, here are some honest, logical observations from someone removed from this and not wishing any schadenfreude on you guys:

1. There must be some value in the activity, otherwise Belichick would not have done it.

2. The value must be greater than most people realize in order for Belichick to continue the activity after nearly being "caught" several times in the past as well as being told explicitly by the league not to do it this season.

3. The tape was confiscated sometime in the first half so unless there was some real time digesting of the information, I don't believe the Patriots were able to make any use of the information obtained from videotaping during last week's Jets game.

I think that we as fans of the sport will never know the truth about this matter since Goodell will issue his punishment and Belichick will take. Belichick will never certainly disclose to anyone else how it was used and how useful it really was. Life will go on.

In terms of offering an analogy why this is not tolerated while watching for defensive tendencies and stealing signals using just your eyes and brains is acceptable, let me present this:

In casino gambling, it is not against the law or the rules to count cards in Blackjack using your eyes and brains. Yes, the casinos hate it and they can ban you from playing for any reason since it is private property, but they can't make it illegal. However, if you use any "device" to assist in the card counting, even pencil & paper, that is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it. Card counting in blackjack is pretty common; it's just that there are few really good card counters. But most people playing have a general feel on each shoe dealt if a lot of aces and high cards have been dealt or not. They can get more accurate by implementing some count using their eyes and brains. But once they use something else to assist in that activity, then it's illegal. As a casino, you don't even have to prove that it helped the blackjack player... you just have to prove that they used something other than their brains and eyes.

I only bring this analogy up because a lot of people seem be caught up in the argument that everyone else does it by lip reading, having a backup guy spy on the defensive coaches from the sidelines, etc. so what's the difference when you videotape it? I hope by this example you can see the difference.

Anyways, here's hoping that this gets resolved quickly so we can all get back to talking football.
That is an interesting analogy.. of course..the reason why devices are illegal is the casinos would lose tons of money. And we all know THAT is what it's all about...Not sure that analogy works when you have teams playing against each other.
 
Given that we really do not know what was on the tape, although we can make some pretty decent guesses, here are some honest, logical observations from someone removed from this and not wishing any schadenfreude on you guys:

1. There must be some value in the activity, otherwise Belichick would not have done it.

2. The value must be greater than most people realize in order for Belichick to continue the activity after nearly being "caught" several times in the past as well as being told explicitly by the league not to do it this season.

3. The tape was confiscated sometime in the first half so unless there was some real time digesting of the information, I don't believe the Patriots were able to make any use of the information obtained from videotaping during last week's Jets game.

I think that we as fans of the sport will never know the truth about this matter since Goodell will issue his punishment and Belichick will take. Belichick will never certainly disclose to anyone else how it was used and how useful it really was. Life will go on.

In terms of offering an analogy why this is not tolerated while watching for defensive tendencies and stealing signals using just your eyes and brains is acceptable, let me present this:

In casino gambling, it is not against the law or the rules to count cards in Blackjack using your eyes and brains. Yes, the casinos hate it and they can ban you from playing for any reason since it is private property, but they can't make it illegal. However, if you use any "device" to assist in the card counting, even pencil & paper, that is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it. Card counting in blackjack is pretty common; it's just that there are few really good card counters. But most people playing have a general feel on each shoe dealt if a lot of aces and high cards have been dealt or not. They can get more accurate by implementing some count using their eyes and brains. But once they use something else to assist in that activity, then it's illegal. As a casino, you don't even have to prove that it helped the blackjack player... you just have to prove that they used something other than their brains and eyes.

I only bring this analogy up because a lot of people seem be caught up in the argument that everyone else does it by lip reading, having a backup guy spy on the defensive coaches from the sidelines, etc. so what's the difference when you videotape it? I hope by this example you can see the difference.

Anyways, here's hoping that this gets resolved quickly so we can all get back to talking football.
OK OK...even if one BUYS this analogy...that teh counting of cards (by one's brain) is OK..just the technological extension isn't....if one then uses the analogy to stealing signals by coaches..(OK even if they are aided by binoculars or other legal means) and videoing them (NOT legal) what I have heard from many commentators is a condemnation of what they believe the result is...knowing what the D is doing..knowing formations..etc. That is the equivalent of one condemning counting of cards in ANY way...whether using one's brain or a device. One can try and understand what the D is doing from coaches etc (legal and OK) or enhanced (not OK) but the commentators have also in their words just called it cheating to HAVE the advantage. If that is what they believe..then coaches doing anything to steal signs is cheating as well.
 
Your analogy isn't as close as it initially appears to be, because casinos don't want any card counting at all, that is why they forbid any equipment or help, and why you can only do it with your eyes and brain. The NFL on the other hand, widely permits all kinds of technical equipment during games for sound and video recording, binoculars, and lip readers. There has never been a crackdown on this stuff... ever.
 
Your analogy isn't as close as it initially appears to be, because casinos don't want any card counting at all, that is why they forbid any equipment or help, and why you can only do it with your eyes and brain. The NFL on the other hand, widely permits all kinds of technical equipment during games for sound and video recording, binoculars, and lip readers. There has never been a crackdown on this stuff... ever.

I could have sworn I read here today that you can use a video camera to record as long as there's a roof over your head. So, you can do it from the luxury boxes, but not from the cheap seats at the third level?!! LOL. The NFL is truly effed up.
 
Given that we really do not know what was on the tape, although we can make some pretty decent guesses, here are some honest, logical observations from someone removed from this and not wishing any schadenfreude on you guys:

1. There must be some value in the activity, otherwise Belichick would not have done it.

Yes

2. The value must be greater than most people realize in order for Belichick to continue the activity after nearly being "caught" several times in the past as well as being told explicitly by the league not to do it this season.

No. There are a lot of reasons to do it knowing precisely that the NFL is against it. For one, you do it because the NFL's double standard does not prohibit the use of videotape to steal signals. Belichick knows this because a NFL official said this directly to him last December. It's plausible that BB is pushing the envelope precisely because he knows the NFL allows cheating.

3. The tape was confiscated sometime in the first half so unless there was some real time digesting of the information, I don't believe the Patriots were able to make any use of the information obtained from videotaping during last week's Jets game.

That sounds likely, who knows? Maybe they used it for the first series. I don't know. No one knows.

In terms of offering an analogy why this is not tolerated while watching for defensive tendencies and stealing signals using just your eyes and brains is acceptable, let me present this:


Your whole metaphor is wrong from the start because the NFL has already publicly said that using technology to steal the signals and upsetting the competitive balance is perfectly legal. I encourage all visitors to this board to read the articles we are citing so we don't have to issue these constant corrections.


In casino gambling, it is not against the law or the rules to count cards in Blackjack using your eyes and brains. Yes, the casinos hate it and they can ban you from playing for any reason since it is private property, but they can't make it illegal. However, if you use any "device" to assist in the card counting, even pencil & paper, that is illegal and you can be prosecuted for it.


Maybe the NFL should adopt the casino's rules, because the NFL permits you to use unauthorized tape to steal signals.


I only bring this analogy up because a lot of people seem be caught up in the argument that everyone else does it by lip reading, having a backup guy spy on the defensive coaches from the sidelines, etc. so what's the difference when you videotape it? I hope by this example you can see the difference.

if you read this thread, that's not the argument people are making. We're saying that the NFL allows you to make use of unauthorized videotape for the purpose of stealing signals. It just doesn't allow you to make the tape. So, while the Patriots violated the rule against making videotapes, and while they did cheat and create an advantage (of course we don't know if the Jets were also cheating since there were unauthorized cameramen on the Jets sideline wearing jets colors), the NFL has said in the past that using the videotape to cheat is legal, as long as you don't make the ideotape yourself.

It's a technicality. If you're a bureaucrat or a lawyer, I guess then this might be exciting.
 
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Ugghh. The "form" is not the "format." The form is the means in which you obtain it. Try not to backpedal on any more issues this time. Let's just leave it at this....the Pats screwed up, got caught (not the first time), and what they did is wrong. Now accept the punishment (if there is any) and sack up and be a man.

And now you're an illiterate twit that doesn't even know what the word "form" means. Form is the means in which you obtain it? No. That's called the process. The form is the end product. Now go study for your SATs little boy, because I can tell you, you're not going to score above 400 on the verbal side at the rate you're going.
 
I could have sworn I read here today that you can use a video camera to record as long as there's a roof over your head. So, you can do it from the luxury boxes, but not from the cheap seats at the third level?!! LOL. The NFL is truly effed up.

I will be furious if the NFL hands down a harsh penalty on the Pats but then allows all teams to continue using videotaping during games.
 
Nope. Didn't take long at all. I think this is a banner day. I wonder why? Maybe because trolls showed up today?

There are plenty of opposition fans who were gleeful that this happened to Belichick, and I defended their points of view. Ribanez for one. He was reasonable, logical, and not a troll.

How old are you?
 
Trolling again?

For at least the third time, I'm not a troll, I'm a Pats fan. I've told you that several times, you want to call me to check? You think an out of town fan would pick a name like mine?

Stick your fingers back in your ears and repeat "I'm not listening, I'm not listening", that would be as good as the arguments you've put up.
 
This is a great post by jjdche:
----
"First of all, let's get this "stealing" signs crap out of the way. No one is "stealing" anything, the players and coaches are giving the signs out in open. There is no, nor has there ever been, any rule about not watching the other team's signs.

Now, the big issue. Everyone is throwing around the big C-word, as if the Patriots were caught in the Jets locker room putting sedatives in their water supply. This is crazy, part of playing the game of football is trying to figure out what the other team will do before they do it. It's not just blocking and tackling. It has been like this since day 1. Any information you can gather on the field is fair game.

I can see why the league has a problem bringing video equipment into the equation (I should say additional video equipment, since the teams are allowed to gather information on the other teams calls from sanctioned videos). I don't have any problems with punishment related to this, it's a league violation.

That said, I just don't see any reason why reading the other teams signs should be looked on in a negative light. The reason there are elaborate play calls is to try to conceal from the other team what you are doing because part of the objective of the game is for the opponent to figure out what you're doing.

The more I think about it, the more I am confused about the prevalent idea that reading another teams signs is some clandestine activity. It's an integral, and I think, perfectly legitimate part of the game of football.

I think a lot of the backlash (besides the fact that people want to bring the Patriots down, and that the media are attention whores) is that the average fan doesn't get on the field and hear what goes on. Every time an offensive or defensive unit comes off the field, part of what they are discussing is what the other team is trying to do and what calls they are making and how they can recognize those calls, what hand signals they are using, etc. It's not just, "hey, we need to execute this play better." This isn't something teams are trying to hide...THIS IS PART OF FOOTBALL!

That's the reason why many players and coaches being interviewed are blowing it off, to them that's what you are supposed to do.


Seriously, the more I think about this, the more I realize how insanely overblown the reactions are. I'm guilty myself of being swayed by the overwhelming negative media reaction. What should have been apparent immediately, actually took me two days to figure because I've been constantly being bombarded with the media allegations of cheating. Looking at what the Patriots actually did within the context of the game I see how innocuous it is now.


In my opinion, what this amounts to is the Patriots being caught using an unsanctioned way to gather information that everyone else is gathering anyway. It's a clear cut case of violating an equipment rule and should be punished as such. I can't believe I'm agreeing with Sean Salisbury, but 50K and move on really sounds right to me."
 
For at least the third time, I'm not a troll, I'm a Pats fan. I've told you that several times, you want to call me to check? You think an out of town fan would pick a name like mine?

Stick your fingers back in your ears and repeat "I'm not listening, I'm not listening", that would be as good as the arguments you've put up.

Usually it's the trolls who are overly concerned about someone's age or personal life.

Plus, I expect real NFL fans to know things about other teams.

I could call myself Gastineau's Sack Dance or Billy's White Shoes or Drew P's 'Fro or Riggins' Mohawk
 
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