Someone explain to me why what the Pats did was sacrilege?

[ribanez]

If you want to be a man, look past the ridiculous hyperbole and accusations being flung around, and judge this by the rules for what it is: a rules violation that in no way addresses competitive balance and is at best a minor infraction. Should the Patriots be punished for breaking a rule? Absolutely. Should they be regarded as cheaters and all of their accomplishments invalidated? Absolutely not, unless you're a jealous Colts/Jets/Dolphins/Chargers/Raiders/Steelers/etc... fan.

Look, I'm a Charger fan and I don't think this is a big deal, BUT you have got to understand everyone's uproar. I mean, you're the friggin Patriots!!! We (opposing fans) would LOVE to be in your position! Everyone loves to bring down the man, that's just the way it is.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

Someone mentioned baseball. A few years back the Red Sox were accused of having a tv set up in the bull pen at fenway and were supposedly relaying signs to the batter that they picked up via the tv broadcast of the game.

Yes, the guys 390 feet away were relaying signs they saw on a tv monitor to a batter who could pick them up and then make an adjustment to the pitch which was likely already on its way.

It was rediculous but the Sox were told to take the monitor out of the pen and they did. Problem solved.

Anyone remember that? No. Why? It was quite a minor story. Also, because it probably could not have helped win a game. Sure they broke a rule but fixed it in the eyes of MLB. Stealing signs is rampant in sports and teams go to all lengths.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

Grogan, as I said before, you're arguing about various degrees of technology at this point, not whether the stealing of calls is okay.

It's stupid to say sideline videotaping is the worst thing ever, and then act like binoculars, audio recording, or videotaping of the play on field is perfectly okay.

Please show me where I said "sideline videotaping is the worst thing ever"? I have NEVER argued that. All I've said is, it's against the rules, and the Pats knew it was against the rules, and there is a chance to gain a competitive advantage by using it, therefore it's cheating. One of the many definitions of cheating is: to violate rules dishonestly. For those who argued the Pats violated policy I would say, they violated the rules, therefore, they cheated.

But I don't think it's the worst thing ever.

 

[upstater1]

That is pretty much the point. Anything that tarnishes the NFL in the public view is something that Goddell has to respond to.

The Jets made a stink about it and the NFL had to respond. Now it is a story the national media will beat to death. It may suck, but you can't run from the story.

In my understanding of what I've seen, the whole issue was the presence of the video camera on the sidelines and the fact that the guy tried to enter the Pats locker room at half time. Otherwise, its business as usual.

That's funny, since a stink was made last year about the Dolphins using tape to steal signals. Did you see people get upset for that one? No. Why? Because the Dolphins are not as good as the Patriots. What did the NFL say about that incident? They said: it's legal!

There ya go.

 

[upstater1]

It does give you an advantage, it's been covered in other threads, stop saying this. You can review the tape at half time, compare it to polaroids of defensive formations prior to the snap, and after the snap, and tell from there what the signs mean. There is plenty of time, no need to edit the tape, you turn on the camera when the coach is about to signal, you turn it off when he's done signalling. Not that complicated.

This isn't a "sacrilege", it's against the rules, it's an attempt to gain a competitive edge. Yes, others do it, the Pats got caught. But there is no denying they did something wrong, I don't subscribe to the "everyone else is doing it", I wouldn't let my son get away with that logic, never mind a grown man who knows the rules of his profession.

You have a thick head. I'm sorry, I don't insult people on this board. But I know for a fact that it's been explained to you multiple times that the NFL says that stealing signals from a tape and employing them in a game is LEGAL. But you refuse to accept that quote from the NFL that's been linked to multiple times. What does that say about your integrity as a poster?

 

[Richter]

Look, I'm a Charger fan and I don't think this is a big deal, BUT you have got to understand everyone's uproar. I mean, you're the friggin Patriots!!! We (opposing fans) would LOVE to be in your position! Everyone loves to bring down the man, that's just the way it is.

Sorry, but this is what disgusts me about this country. The people here do nothing but tear down those in a better position than them. As much as I might hate other teams in the game, I'm not about to try and tear down their past accomplishments because I don't like them. It's a sick, sick culture that exists, and it exists far beyond the boundaries of the football field, extending to virtually every aspect of public life.

 

[upstater1]

Obviously, this story is getting more traction because it's the patriots not the cardinals.

And obviously, it's not "sacrelege."

But man, are we so blinded by our desire to want it to be something that we can't see it for what it is? The league put a rule into place. They emphasized it. They did it, because they thought that it gave teams a competitive advantage.

Now the league is investigating whether the patriots broke that rule. If they did, though, they've done something the league has decided you shouldn't do because it gives you a competitive advantage. It's not more than that, but stripping away the hyperbole, it is that. And that's not good and not something I want my team involved in, so when Friday comes if that's what happened, I hope that Belichick and the team take it like men.

If you used a corked bat in baseball, you don't get to argue that it didn't really help you that much. Even if that's true -- and maybe it is -- it doesn't matter.

It's a lot more complicated than this. The problem is that the league allows stealing signals from videotape, and even says it's legal. The problem is that the Patriots broke a rule about videotaping. Now, the league's problem is in somehow legislating against stealing signals from videotape. They can't do that. Why? because they know it would be impossible to legislate with teams using all sorts of methods (technological) to steal signals legally. That's why there's a lot of gray area here. The league can arbitrarily say the Patriots violated a rule, give a punishment for violating it, without ever once mentioning the cheating part. They can't legislate against cheating precisely because it's ALLOWED, as the NFL has said openly.

 

[Richter]

That's funny, since a stink was made last year about the Dolphins using tape to steal signals. Did you see people get upset for that one? No. Why? Because the Dolphins are not as good as the Patriots. What did the NFL say about that incident? They said: it's legal!

There ya go.

Exactly. If this was the Browns who were accused of taping the other team's sideline, it would be a footnote in NFL history.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

You have a thick head. I'm sorry, I don't insult people on this board. But I know for a fact that it's been explained to you multiple times that the NFL says that stealing signals from a tape and employing them in a game is LEGAL. But you refuse to accept that quote from the NFL that's been linked to multiple times. What does that say about your integrity as a poster?

So the Pats did nothing illegal, or against the rules or anything. I get it, I'm thick. In Bill We Trust, ad infinitum.

 

[upstater1]

Sorry, but this is what disgusts me about this country. The people here do nothing but tear down those in a better position than them. As much as I might hate other teams in the game, I'm not about to try and tear down their past accomplishments because I don't like them. It's a sick, sick culture that exists, and it exists far beyond the boundaries of the football field, extending to virtually every aspect of public life.

Give ribanez credit. This is sports. He's being honest. People are imagining that this could hit the Patriots so hard so that their team can win. I'm fine with that. It's all part of the game. Belichick should be fine with it too. It's all gamesmanship. The only thing I'd say to Ibanez is that I think it's going to backfire on some teams and on the Jets specifically as the Patriots are really good at digging in. Oh, and also, I'm not a fan of your guitars, Ibanez.

 

[upstater1]

So the Pats did nothing illegal, or against the rules or anything. I get it, I'm thick. In Bill We Trust, ad infinitum.

see what I mean about your thick head. I said they DID DO SOMETHING ILLEGAL and AGAINST THE RULES. Can you read?

 

[aluminum seats]

It's unquestionably true that this is largely being driven by the media, and anti-Pats/Belichick bias. If this was simply mentioned after the fact in the sense of "the Pats had a cameraman on the field, the league reminded them they shouldn't" it would be a footnote in the Pats Notes sections of the papers. The wringing of hands is WAY out of proportion to what actually happened.

 

[Richter]

Give ribanez credit. This is sports. He's being honest. People are imagining that this could hit the Patriots so hard so that their team can win. I'm fine with that. It's all part of the game. Belichick should be fine with it too. It's all gamesmanship. The only thing I'd say to Ibanez is that I think it's going to backfire on some teams and on the Jets specifically as the Patriots are really good at digging in. Oh, and also, I'm not a fan of your guitars, Ibanez.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to see some other team go down like this so my team can win. I want to go THROUGH that other team.

 

[upstater1]

I don't know about you, but I don't want to see some other team go down like this so my team can win. I want to go THROUGH that other team.

Uh, it's all a part of the sporting world. people like to take down organizations and not necessarily on the field. Me personally I harbor ill will against some organizations. I wouldn't mind seeing Steinbrenner screw up royally. That doesn't mean I go on people's message boards and agree with an intellectually bankrupt position simply so that Steinbrenner could be taken down. But it means I'd feel a little glee in all his troubles. so what? This is sports.

In real life, I feel more responsible for being non-judgemental and fair to people. I wouldn't incaracerate someone just because of a personal grudge if they really didn't commit a crime. (Now, there are many prosecutors and juries who probably would). In real life, I agree with you. In sports, I disagree.

No one is going to die if the Patriots lose a couple draft picks.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

PFAZ, I am not saying the Patriots are not guilty. They did break a rule and will probably be punished.

I am talking about just how much punishment should they receive, and how severe is the crime? It is ludicrous that people are calling the Patriots the worst cheaters ever, and talking about how this theatens the integrity of football.

If the NFL and fans basically condone stealing of signals by saying binoculars, audio recording, or videotaping of on-field play is okay, then we are merely arguing about the different levels of technology, and different levels of espionage.

Any punishment on the Pats for sideline videotaping will be tied into those other forms of espionage as well, with far reaching ramifications.

That's all legitimate. I agree with virtually all of it.

It just seems that in this whole discussion there's not room for a Patriots fan like me. Annoyed that the team did this. Bothered that it's sounding like it's against a reasonably clear directive. And legitimately concerned that I'd rather have my team err on the side of obeying rules not the other way around.

That's how I feel, and reading this board today for a bit of catharsis and reasonable discussion to make myself feel ok with the situation and prepared to take the punishment we receive, I feel like everything is the polar exteme: Either it's the worst thing in the world or it's just all part of the game.

As for the sanction, I'll take whatever's handed out without complaint. Even if it's harsh. My view is that the sanction, if there is one, should be draft picks. Supsensions and stuff just doesn't seem appropriate. Suppose we are handed a punishment that disadvantages us in a future game this year. Why should the division rivals of the team that we get to play suffer by giving our opponent an advantage? Draft picks hurt us and don't really help anyone else, or, more precisely, affect the entire rest of the league the same. That's why it's the right sanction, if there is to be one.

I reserve my right to change my mind on anything when Friday comes and goes and we see what the league and our team does.

 

[ribanez]

Give ribanez credit. This is sports. He's being honest. People are imagining that this could hit the Patriots so hard so that their team can win. I'm fine with that. It's all part of the game. Belichick should be fine with it too. It's all gamesmanship. The only thing I'd say to Ibanez is that I think it's going to backfire on some teams and on the Jets specifically as the Patriots are really good at digging in. Oh, and also, I'm not a fan of your guitars, Ibanez.

I'm not taking it personally. I personally don't think it's a big deal, and I don't hate the patriots. I was actually giving my opinion on why the media and all opposing fans are making such a big stink about this.

I actually admire the Patriots and my most favorite Charger of all time plays for you! Also, my best friend growing up was a Patriot fan. Back then when I didn't know you should only root for one team!

 

[upstater1]

That's all legitimate. I agree with virtually all of it.

It just seems that in this whole discussion there's not room for a Patriots fan like me. Annoyed that the team did this. Bothered that it's sounding like it's against a reasonably clear directive. And legitimately concerned that I'd rather have my team err on the side of obeying rules not the other way around.

I can understand your position, but I'd say it also makes a lot of assumptions about why and how this was done. We don't know the whole story. Belichick, I'm speculating, was precisely aware of some of the fallout of this, but he did it anyway. Not out of sheer arrogance (though that maybe plays a part) but also because the NFL adopts double standards when trying to level the competitive playing field, and so it doesn't surprise me that this is all coming to a head IN THE VERY FIRST WEEK of the season. Lots of stuff goes on behind the scenes. I'm not entirely convinced that the Patriots didn't know this was coming. Let's see what the fallout is.

 

[Richter]

Uh, it's all a part of the sporting world. people like to take down organizations and not necessarily on the field. Me personally I harbor ill will against some organizations. I wouldn't mind seeing Steinbrenner screw up royally. That doesn't mean I go on people's message boards and agree with an intellectually bankrupt position simply so that Steinbrenner could be taken down. But it means I'd feel a little glee in all his troubles. so what? This is sports.

In real life, I feel more responsible for being non-judgemental and fair to people. I wouldn't incaracerate someone just because of a personal grudge if they really didn't commit a crime. (Now, there are many prosecutors and juries who probably would). In real life, I agree with you. In sports, I disagree.

No one is going to die if the Patriots lose a couple draft picks.

It's not all about being fair to the other guy. It diminishes the accomplishments of my team if they face the other guys playing at less than full strength. We accept injuries as part of the game, and that's fine, but there needs to be something that's truly damning and objective to make me want to punish another team in such a manner.

 

[Grogan's neck roll]

You have a thick head. I'm sorry, I don't insult people on this board. But I know for a fact that it's been explained to you multiple times that the NFL says that stealing signals from a tape and employing them in a game is LEGAL. But you refuse to accept that quote from the NFL that's been linked to multiple times. What does that say about your integrity as a poster?

I don't get it, in one area you say it's legal, in another you say it's illegal, (thank you for using caps for emphasis, helps my thick head). You are full of inconsistencies, for as soon as you say "you have a thick head" you then say "I don't insult people on this board." Seems to me you just did.

"Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

 

[upstater1]

It's not all about being fair to the other guy. It diminishes the accomplishments of my team if they face the other guys playing at less than full strength. We accept injuries as part of the game, and that's fine, but there needs to be something that's truly damning and objective to make me want to punish another team in such a manner.

I proceed on the assumption that the gamesmanship and intrigue that takes place outside the lines is all a part of the preparation for the game. It's what makes these athletes and teams human. It allows us to identify with them. For instance, I admire the Patriots for a lot of reasons, but one of the main one's is the way they run their organization, the way they handle their salary cap even. That's all outside the lines. That's why I takes this so-called scandal as being par for the course. Since I despise the way Steinbrenner and Dan Snyder go about business, I'm going to enjoy it if they fall on their face.