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Defensive Front Seven - A Strength?


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This thread is so misleading.
when we play zone we are more or a less a front 6 team. We will bring a extra DB to support our backend. At least historically this is what has been the main configuration in Sub Packages.

If some one believe we will buck the trend and suddenly go like Seattle and play straight up and not in sub package is not realistic.

Having said that we will have a decent front 6 but I do see Ninko moving to a off the line role this year to let Hightower come back.

So, because we are in the nickel 70% of the time, we no longer need to have players for the base?
 
They selected Wilfork because he dropped to them. Everyone that is succesful, looking back, can be said to have filled a need, but Seymour and warren both played nose sometime and there was a lot of doubt whether Wilfork, who played a penetrating DT in a four man line, would be able to adapt his game to NT.

They certainly had other needs in those days, including linebacker for years and cornerback, which was in worse shape then than it is now IMO.

Once Seympur and Warren left, they certainly had more of a need on tthe DLine than before, yet they drafted no big linemen for years.

A reasonable argument, but one that is mistaken for a few reasons.

First, Ty Warren spent 2003 demonstrating he was nowhere near an NFL caliber NT. Seymour was reasonable at it, but he was so dominant at DE that playing him anywhere else was a waste of his abilities. Aside from that, NE didn't just lose Washington in 2004, they let Bobby Hamilton go as well. If either Warren or Seymour moved inside, DE depth was as problematic as NT.

More importantly, you need to take a more holistic perspective, viewing each season as a singular event. What positions were drafted the years before and where they were selected has limited impact on whether something was a need or not. That influence is limited to the fact that a good drafting team usually doesn't need to keep hitting the same position several years running.

Take 2004, for instance, despite investing two first rounders on the DL, they had such a dominant and deep roster that there were only two positions that even had the potential of allowing a rookie starter, NT and RB. Unsurprisingly, if Wilfork hadn't fallen, the plan was to snag Stephen Jackson, who they still tried furiously to trade up for. And when he dropped off, NE quickly moved on to Corey Dillon.

Sure, no DT was selected in the first until 2014, and while I suppose you could view that as a commentary on need, in reality is was more due to a more rapid decline in other areas of the roster. In 2005, LG was by far the biggest need on the team. In 2006, the offense was getting old and needed some revitalizing. In 2007, the back end of the secondary was either old or inconsistent. By 2008, the DL might have been getting up in age, but CB and LB were significantly thinner.

2009 was the first time DT really was moving up the checklist and... low and behold.... they drafted a DT with their second overall selection!

I actually expected NE to snag a DT early in 2010, one of the few times they threw me a curve and not only went at a position I didn't view as a need, but avoided one I considered a need entirely*.

In 2011, due to stumbling on Love and Deaderick, I thought OT and RB leapfrogged DT. And on and on and on....

One other thing. The (*) is there because the one feather in the non-need cap is LB/DE. That was a need for years before the team did much of anything about it. I still can't understand the reluctance, but I recognized it enough to assume it just wasn't going to happen early in the draft.

Fun discussion! :)
 
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I thought Warren did a good job, considering who he was replacing and that he was a rookie, leading us to the Super Bowl.

But that's irrelevant since they picked up a proficient Nose Tackle in Traylor, giving the a strong 3 man line, so Wilfork was not a need. He wasn't even very good tat year.

No one is arguing they ever pick regardless of position, just that they don't pick only by the neediest spot.
 
But that's irrelevant since they picked up a proficient Nose Tackle in Traylor, giving the a strong 3 man line, so Wilfork was not a need. He wasn't even very good tat year.

No one is arguing they ever pick regardless of position, just that they don't pick only by the neediest spot.

Traylor was playing 3-4 NT for the first time in his career, IIRC. If not, it was pretty close. He was your basic vet emergency plan that NE almost always does with a need spot.

The evidence overwhelmingly does, in fact, point to them using first rounders on positions of high need. CB, DT and OG currently fit that bill. The only way I can even imagine NE's first pick not being one of those is if the best RBs are still on the board and NE views it as an arbitrage opportunity. But the likelihood of that happening is very low.
 
Traylor was playing 3-4 NT for the first time in his career, IIRC. If not, it was pretty close. He was your basic vet emergency plan that NE almost always does with a need spot.

The evidence overwhelmingly does, in fact, point to them using first rounders on positions of high need. CB, DT and OG currently fit that bill. The only way I can even imagine NE's first pick not being one of those is if the best RBs are still on the board and NE views it as an arbitrage opportunity. But the likelihood of that happening is very low.

Not sure on that, but he played tackle on different teams since 1997 and started ahead of Wilfork most of the season. He continued to be a starting NT in the NFL.
 
Not sure on that, but he played tackle on different teams since 1997 and started ahead of Wilfork most of the season. He continued to be a starting NT in the NFL.

I know he played tackle, I just recall there being a big deal that 3-4NT was a new thing for him. His career path was pretty damn remarkable.
 
Traylor was playing 3-4 NT for the first time in his career, IIRC. If not, it was pretty close. He was your basic vet emergency plan that NE almost always does with a need spot.

The evidence overwhelmingly does, in fact, point to them using first rounders on positions of high need. CB, DT and OG currently fit that bill. The only way I can even imagine NE's first pick not being one of those is if the best RBs are still on the board and NE views it as an arbitrage opportunity. But the likelihood of that happening is very low.

Of course they have some need for every pick, they just don't go down the list picking for need regardless of the player available.

They could pick an OG, DT, CB, WR, RB, and possibly DE/OLB or safety and still say it's a need..

No team in their right mind picks players that can't make the team
 
I know he played tackle, I just recall there being a big deal that 3-4NT was a new thing for him. His career path was pretty damn remarkable.

He was originally a linebacker, but he started bulking up to play tackle in 1997. And he was a better than average NT who started a number of years afterwards.

BB has said [it's a quote from somebody else] that there are only so many athletic 300++ pounders and you have to draft them when you can.
 
No team in their right mind picks players that can't make the team

Of course! But NE historically snags the guys who play the very top need or right there. Like I said earlier, with nothing more than a review of NE's roster, I predicted the exact position drafted in 2002, 2003 (those were easy, it was consensus) 2005 and 2011. In 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008 I had the position narrowed down to 2-3. Only in 2010 (when I predicted TE, which was doubled) and 2012 (I avoided OLB/DE in all predictions for reasons stated earlier) did I miss out entirely. Last year I had OG/C, TE and QB as my most likely high draft targets.

I'm not a genius, its just a pretty blatant trend. Find the biggest couple needs and pick someone.
 
BB has said [it's a quote from somebody else] that there are only so many athletic 300++ pounders and you have to draft them when you can.

Sure, but how many guys go from LB to DT to NT and be good at all of them? :)
 
Of course! But NE historically snags the guys who play the very top need or right there. Like I said earlier, with nothing more than a review of NE's roster, I predicted the exact position drafted in 2002, 2003 (those were easy, it was consensus) 2005 and 2011. In 2004, 2006, 2007 and 2008 I had the position narrowed down to 2-3. Only in 2010 (when I predicted TE, which was doubled) and 2012 (I avoided OLB/DE in all predictions for reasons stated earlier) did I miss out entirely. Last year I had OG/C and QB as my most likely high draft targets.

I'm not a genius, its just a pretty blatant trend. Find the biggest couple needs and pick someone.

It's only common sense that you hope to fill a need. What I'm saying is, teams like the patriots decide based on how it drops [at least at 32] and if their top need isn't a good value, they find another need or trade for more picks.

They don't spend the picks on the next best CB, if it's not a good player, they grab a player, then trade or FA for a CB.
 
Sure, but how many guys go from LB to DT to NT and be good at all of them? :)

Like i said he was an athletic 340 pounder years before we acquired him.
 
It's only common sense that you hope to fill a need. What I'm saying is, teams like the patriots decide based on how it drops [at least at 32] and if their top need isn't a good value, they find another need or trade for more picks.

If that's your contention, then what are we disagreeing about?

Like i said he was an athletic 340 pounder years before we acquired him.

I'm not sure where the disagreement here is either. :)
 
If that's your contention, then what are we disagreeing about?



I'm not sure where the disagreement here is either. :)

I don't think we disagree. I started this with Reiss column where he quote tomlin saying it's a real strong year for DE/OLB. Reiss retorted that we had Buchanan, Moore and Bequette and Sheard and so didn't "need" a pass rusher.

Basically, if an impact player is available and can improve the team, I think they go there, rather than being bound by the top need [which they can fill in lower rounds/fa/trade.]
 
Basically, if an impact player is available and can improve the team, I think they go there, rather than being bound by the top need [which they can fill in lower rounds/fa/trade.]

I'll make a friendly wager that NE won't draft a DE/OLB until the 3rd round, at the earliest.
 
I'll make a friendly wager that NE won't draft a DE/OLB until the 3rd round, at the earliest.

Depends more on who's available they like at 32 IMO.
 
Depends more on who's available they like at 32 IMO.

Then we've found disagreement. I don't think it's anywhere near high enough on the need grid for them to even consider it, barring some surefire HOFer slipping past everyone. Between Nink's new deal, Jones being under control for two more years and Sheard's signing, it just isn't going to happen.

If I'm right, hence my offer. :)
 
Then we've found disagreement. I don't think it's anywhere near high enough on the need grid for them to even consider it, barring some surefire HOFer slipping past everyone. Between Nink's new deal, Jones being under control for two more years and Sheard's signing, it just isn't going to happen.

If I'm right, hence my offer. :)

Your wager isn't very "fair". :) IMHO, it would have been less than 50% that we would have drafted a DE in the 1st or 2nd, even without the Sheard signing and the Ninkovich salary adjustment. You should be giving at least 4-1 this year.

We were in a similar position last year, without a 3rd DE. Belichick judged that the 6th round was the right time to draft a DE. Perhaps, there were no values in any round before the 6th, or perhaps belichick likes our DE's of Ninkovich, Jones and Buchanan. Of course, we've added Moore and Sheard since last year.
 
Your wager isn't very "fair". :) IMHO, it would have been less than 50% that we would have drafted a DE in the 1st or 2nd, even without the Sheard signing and the Ninkovich salary adjustment. You should be giving at least 4-1 this year.

No, it isn't. But don't tell RayClay that!
 
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