Patriots could cut then re-sign Vince Wilfork

[mgteich]

no we come to a point that a draft choice and 8 mill to spend on a replacement or on another need may be greater than having wilfork on the team.

fair enough

I disagree with the idea that a 2015 draft choice should be counted on to replace Wilfork during his rookie season. If Wilfork goes, I would want to sign a top or mid-level fee agent NT or at very least re-sign Branch, or perhaps do both. Even then, we would save cap money. And of course, we would be better prepared for the future.

With regard to a draft choice, nothing is cast in stone. A lot depends on who is on the roster at the time of the draft. A lot also depends on what future Belichick projects for Siliga and Jones. I would consider extending both players. Belichick may consider that Easley/Siliga/Jones are a good core for the future. With an additional veteran or two in place, it is not clear where Belichick would put DT on his list of priorities.

I agree that DT will likely be in the mix at draft time, but then so also will be OG, DE, TE and RB, and perhaps even OT and LB.

 

[Nonentity]

Why would you guarantee a contract for a guy who has lost something and is 34? So if he gets cut at age 35 the cap hit will be 12M or so? Yeah, that'll make him feel loved all right. Make the team feel strangled by his cap hit too. I think that's the last thing they'd do. Cut him if need be, let him check his worth as a FA. It won't be what he thinks it is.

That should absolutely make him feel loved, because that would be an insane contract to give him.

Look, I know that giving him a bunch of guaranteed money sounds ridiculous.

But here are my thoughts:

1) We are not going to be able to get a magical Vince replacement in the draft. That's what happens when you draft at 32.

2) It's hard to know how much of last year's decline was the post-injury recovery, and how much was age. Remember how long it takes most players to recover from Achilles injuries, and just marvel at the fact that Wilfork was even on the field.

3) He's hugely valuable in-house as a veteran presence on a young D-line.

4) Most linemen decline gradually rather than quickly - unlike skill players who suddenly just can't cover/separate anymore.

I'd rather pay Vince a few years of guaranteed salary to see out his career than letting go of him and accepting a weak D-line next year. If he falls off a cliff, so be it. We know he takes care of himself (just look at his fitness work last off-season with Bianca), I don't think it should be as much of a concern with Vince as you guys suggest.

 

[hwc]

I think we should give him a mostly-guaranteed contract, say 3 years/16-18m with most of that guaranteed for both injury and skill, and a few LTBE incentives on top of that.

Instead of giving him $16 million guaranteed, I say we give him the retirement party and spot in the Pats Hall of Fame where he belongs. He's earned it.

Redeploy his $9 million in cap money for 2014 on younger players. No amount of wishful thinking is going to make him a better player in 2015/2016 than he was in 2014.

When it's time, it's time. Now if Belichick has Wilfork's play in 2014 graded as a $9+ player, then fine. That level of play did not show up in the Pats run stopping stats and, if we are talking passing downs, Belichick has shown that he wants to get quicker smaller players on the field.

It's hard because we all love Vince, but I suspect that now is the time.

 

[hwc]

We know he takes care of himself (just look at his fitness work last off-season with Bianca), I don't think it should be as much of a concern with Vince as you guys suggest.

Can we stop with all the talk about Vince's fitness? Please. He may not sweat much for a fat guy, but he's not exactly trim. He has put on a LOT of weight. Happens to most of us at his age, but lets not go on and on about how he stays in top shape.

 

[RayClay]

Although the Patriots don't hang on to players past their prime, they don't just cut their best, loyal players, because they are a class organization. Lots of players don't know it's time to hang them up and it can get uncomfortable, but I can't recall any major veteran who was a loyal team player leaving on really bad terms. Of course it's how you look at it, but I look at Brown and Bruschi as the worst and they weren't embarassed by the team.

Brown was cut and took a pay cut, but I don't recall him playing much after the team seems to have thought he was done. Obviously, loved and on good terms.

Bruschi kept his salary reasonable and probably played a year more than he should. I hear they had a talk with him and saved a cut, or benching. Though they had zero for LBs back then, you can't find a diamond in the rough on the bench and Bruschi was cooked.

McGinest lost a step and just wasn't the same. He thought he was and didn't appreciate being shuffled off to the Browns. Looking back, he might realize that was a golden parachute, starter money for a jag, for his leadership.

I put Vrabel in the same category. I think he had a bad back. Probably extended his career with Pioli.

Milloy's agent decided to play hardball after starting to negotiate,as the pressure mounted on Belichick. Fold? lol BB don't play that, especially after he'd more than replaced him.

Law shot his way out of town and had some more productive years. more power to him. BB doesn't pay all pro money to guys past their prime with foot injuries. Props to Law for playing well with the foot. BB would do it again.

Long time players who left on a bad note? Not a coincidence IMO.

Mankins was a great player, who squeezed every nickel out in contentious negotiations. Called the owner a liar. When time neared for the gold watch, worst team in the league and top trade value. Reap what you sow, Logan.

I'm a big Seymour fan, but compared to Wilfork, he made the owner kiss his ass to accept a huge contract. When the time for another came, shuffle off to Oakland and a 1st rounder for us.

Maybe I'm wrong, but guys who do more than play, who lead and help the team on the cap get appreciated. Just a business guys get the business.

It's not about discounts or anything, it's about showing class despite rough negotiations.

 

[mgteich]

It's not about discounts or anything, it's about showing class despite rough negotiations.

Wilfork and the patriots have had very tough negotiations in the past. Neither has given up much. IMHO, the best follow-up to such past negotiations if for the two camps to have another tough set of negotiations. If the team and Wilfork can work a deal that is acceptable to both, then fine. If not, then Wilfork will leave on good terms.

IMHO, no one owes anything because of past negotiations. Both sides have driven hard bargains in the past.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Ngata at 8.5M or Wilfork at same. Who would you take? I'd take Ngata. He can't be moved when he's in there.

I love Ngata, he's been one of my favorite non-Patriots for a long time. But he has major health concerns (this was his healthiest year in some time) and he did just serve a PED suspension. Add in the continuity of sticking with Wilfork as a leader and valuable player, and I think Wilfork is definitely the better option of those two for the Pats.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Although the Patriots don't hang on to players past their prime, they don't just cut their best, loyal players, because they are a class organization. Lots of players don't know it's time to hang them up and it can get uncomfortable, but I can't recall any major veteran who was a loyal team player leaving on really bad terms. Of course it's how you look at it, but I look at Brown and Bruschi as the worst and they weren't embarassed by the team.

Brown was cut and took a pay cut, but I don't recall him playing much after the team seems to have thought he was done. Obviously, loved and on good terms.

Bruschi kept his salary reasonable and probably played a year more than he should. I hear they had a talk with him and saved a cut, or benching. Though they had zero for LBs back then, you can't find a diamond in the rough on the bench and Bruschi was cooked.

McGinest lost a step and just wasn't the same. He thought he was and didn't appreciate being shuffled off to the Browns. Looking back, he might realize that was a golden parachute, starter money for a jag, for his leadership.

I put Vrabel in the same category. I think he had a bad back. Probably extended his career with Pioli.

Milloy's agent decided to play hardball after starting to negotiate,as the pressure mounted on Belichick. Fold? lol BB don't play that, especially after he'd more than replaced him.

Law shot his way out of town and had some more productive years. more power to him. BB doesn't pay all pro money to guys past their prime with foot injuries. Props to Law for playing well with the foot. BB would do it again.

Long time players who left on a bad note? Not a coincidence IMO.

Mankins was a great player, who squeezed every nickel out in contentious negotiations. Called the owner a liar. When time neared for the gold watch, worst team in the league and top trade value. Reap what you sow, Logan.

I'm a big Seymour fan, but compared to Wilfork, he made the owner kiss his ass to accept a huge contract. When the time for another came, shuffle off to Oakland and a 1st rounder for us.

Maybe I'm wrong, but guys who do more than play, who lead and help the team on the cap get appreciated. Just a business guys get the business.

It's not about discounts or anything, it's about showing class despite rough negotiations.

Willie McGinest is exactly the comp to look at, IMO. A proud veteran and locker room leader who was cut coming off of a SB win because he just wasn't worth the money that the Pats stood to save by cutting him. McGinest was still good--he was still a productive NFL player, and well above replacement-level at his position--but he was not the player that he used to be.

That paragraph could just as easily apply to Wilfork. I hope it doesn't, though, and I'm hopeful that there's a compromise to be reached so that he goes down the Tedy Bruschi path instead. But if there's no compromise, I think it's far more likely that he gets cut than that he plays 2015 with his current cap hit.

 

[hwc]

The problem is that, depending on the performance grade from 2014, Wilfork's play may have reached the point where it is not worth it to the team to go through a "tough negotiation". The Patriots were dead last in 2014 in stopping 3rd and short, 4th and short, and goal line running plays. Dead last in the NFL is not very good. Honestly, if you 400 pound nose tackle isn't helping with good results on short yardage running plays, what good is he? You don't put your 400 pound nose tackle in the game to get after the QB.

I suspect that Wilfork in 2015 would be projected to be a part-time role player, in for less than 50% of the snaps. It's hard to justify paying a lot for that kind of role. I don't see how the Pats get from $9 million to a reasonable number. IMO, the number is probably not $7 million, or $6 million, or $5 million, or maybe even $4 million. At what point is it just insulting for no good reason?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Vince is not what he used to be. No up the middle pass rush left and has lost his pursuit speed. I re-watched the playoffs and yes he'd be double teamed but not frequently. Saw him taken out of the play many times by young, physical OGs. Why would we expect him a year older to be any better? More recovered from injury? Maybe, but I doubt it.
I was always in Camp Wilfork and said that if anyone, Vince with his low achilles impact swimming, etc. conditioning regimen would recover from injury and play well. He did. But he did not play $8+ million in cap hit for 2015 well. Not when we have the need to re-sign young, multi-year impact players on D with limited cap $.
I'd love to see a deal where we cut Vince and re-sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Probably unlikely.
If not, a 1st round DT, re-sign Branch at a fraction of Wilfy's cost and add another FA in the mix.
In any case this is the draft to take a DL in round one even with Vince on the team.

 

[RayClay]

Wilfork and the patriots have had very tough negotiations in the past. Neither has given up much. IMHO, the best follow-up to such past negotiations if for the two camps to have another tough set of negotiations. If the team and Wilfork can work a deal that is acceptable to both, then fine. If not, then Wilfork will leave on good terms.

IMHO, no one owes anything because of past negotiations. Both sides have driven hard bargains in the past.

Yeah, tough negotiations, but the team left Wilfork without a single decent DT for 5-10 years and he saved them a fortune after Seymour and warren left. They don't forget that.

Of course it depends on how he plays, but his worst year should have been coming off that injury without being able to work out off season because of the heel. I expect a better year this year.

All hese people that say cut this guy and that guy, how much will it cost for 2-3 guys to replace him?

You aren't getting a direct replacement in the draft, not when a short Wilfork light is projected top 15. If he's top 15, we're expecting all pros bottom 1, 2 and beyond?

Willie McGinest is exactly the comp to look at, IMO. A proud veteran and locker room leader who was cut coming off of a SB win because he just wasn't worth the money that the Pats stood to save by cutting him. McGinest was still good--he was still a productive NFL player, and well above replacement-level at his position--but he was not the player that he used to be.

That paragraph could just as easily apply to Wilfork. I hope it doesn't, though, and I'm hopeful that there's a compromise to be reached so that he goes down the Tedy Bruschi path instead. But if there's no compromise, I think it's far more likely that he gets cut than that he plays 2015 with his current cap hit.

Wilfork is a nose tackle, not a pass rusher. He just came off a season after Achilles surgery and was easily our best tackle. i don't see the comparison at all. Wilfork should be better after an off season where he isn't limited in his ability to work out.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Vince is not what he used to be. No up the middle pass rush left and has lost his pursuit speed. I re-watched the playoffs and yes he'd be double teamed but not frequently. Saw him taken out of the play many times by young, physical OGs. Why would we expect him a year older to be any better? More recovered from injury? Maybe, but I doubt it.
I was always in Camp Wilfork and said that if anyone, Vince with his low achilles impact swimming, etc. conditioning regimen would recover from injury and play well. He did. But he did not play $8+ million in cap hit for 2015 well. Not when we have the need to re-sign young, multi-year impact players on D with limited cap $.
I'd love to see a deal where we cut Vince and re-sign him to a cap friendlier deal. Probably unlikely.
If not, a 1st round DT, re-sign Branch at a fraction of Wilfy's cost and add another FA in the mix.
In any case this is the draft to take a DL in round one even with Vince on the team.

There's some good space-eaters in this draft. If Jordan Phillips is available at 32, I would love to see the Pats take him. The knock on him is health (which Belichick has proven willing to gamble on) and effort (which seems to always be the knock on these guys; was the same way with Wilfork and Poe).

 

[mgteich]

Yeah, tough negotiations, but the team left Wilfork without a single decent DT for 5-10 years and he saved them a fortune after Seymour and warren left. They don't forget that.

Of course it depends on how he plays, but his worst year should have been coming off that injury without being able to work out off season because of the heel. I expect a better year this year.

There is no question that Wilfork has been critical in the time he has been here. Facts like these have not convinced Belichick to may considerably over market prices in the past.

If the patriots choose not to pay Wilfork his bonus, how much do you think another playoff team would pay Wilfork or Ngata? Which would you prefer?
=========================
For me the question is not whether I want Wilfork to stay. The question is the level of compensation. And I don't think the answer is more than $5M. I agree that Wilfork would be replaced by free agents and/or players on the team, rather than free agents.

1) I think that Siliga and Easley would get lots, lots more reps in 2015.

2) I would expect the patriots to sign one of the better free agents available in free agency.

3) I would think that Branch would also be re-signed.

4) Even given the above, we still might draft a DT; competition is good.

My guess is that the above might also cost about $5M.
===========================
So, if $5M is the number, then the team will save $3.5M whether they keep or replace Wilfork.
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Having said all this (my personal opinion), I would not be surprised if Wilfork is paid the bonus and his contracted salary.

 

[supafly]

Can we stop with all the talk about Vince's fitness? Please. He may not sweat much for a fat guy, but he's not exactly trim. He has put on a LOT of weight. Happens to most of us at his age, but lets not go on and on about how he stays in top shape.

Miguel has pointed out several dates throughout the year where he routinely meets the weight clause written into his contract, although I don't know how often that is measured during the season itself.

Either way, if he does put on some weight during the season, he seems to be able to get back down to the accepted zone where Belichick wishes him to be. Of course, the major question would be how big of a zone this is?

 

[hwc]

I don't have access to the details of players' weight clauses, when they are tested, and whether or not they achieve them. I defer to anyone with access to that information.

 

[mrbean]

I think the obvious solution here is to cut and re-sign Big Vince and then see if we can steal Ngata if/when the Ravens release him. Image if we could get both those guys for a reasonable deal. It would be worth it just to see the look on Harbaugh's face. "OK, now it's REALLY deception!"

 

[supafly]

I don't have access to the details of players' weight clauses, when they are tested, and whether or not they achieve them. I defer to anyone with access to that information.

The big question would likely be how large the accepted zone may be. For all we know it could be significant. I am just stating that he seems to be able to get into the accepted zone when needed, that's all.

 

[patsfan-1982]

this year or the next Wilfork well be gone he is getting up there in age but lets be real no street FA like a branch or a late round rookie is going to replace Wilfork

 

[Miguel]

I do not know the dates. Just know that Wilfork has earned his 300,000 (60K times 5 weigh-ins).