Tight end Shuffle: Hartsock, Maneri, Terrence Miller in; Jones, Watson, RB Houston out

[Mack Herron]

The Prodigal Son returns.

Tom E. Curran ‏@tomecurran 5m
The Patriots have re-signed undrafted tight end Justin Jones. #patriotstalk

 

[Brady6]

The players you listed would not come here to back up Gronk. It just won't happen. Scott Chandler took that deal to be the man in Buffalo, but you think he would take it to come here and sit behind Gronk?

Or are you suggesting he is better than our 3rd WR? If so, where is the depth behind the 2 starting TEs?

Either Chandler wouldn't come here because he wouldn't play or we have no depth behind 2 starting TE positions in a 2 TE offense.

Why not? This team used 2 TEs better than any other NFL team in the history of the league. Also as far as depth goes, in 2011 the year of the TE for the Patriots we had 2 TEs on our roster and we signed and waived Dan Gronkowski a few times. So suggesting we needed depth in order to commit to a type of offense is unsupported.

Gronk is great. Thinking we can have another Gronk sitting in the wings is silly.

We are talking about the guy who backs him up and won't play. Every team in the NFL is in the position that if their star goes down they can't replace them.

I do not think we can have another Gronkowski, just like I do not think Mallett or Garopollo are anything even remotely close to the type of QB Brady is. The gap though, does not have to be as significant, calling Hooman a JAG would be a compliment.

What you are asking for in FA is unrealistic. Most of those players stayed with their former team for the same role, which is exceedingly larger than they would have here, and others are competing to start. Owen Daniels is done by the way.

Daniels, Carlson, Myers, and ****son all changed teams. Like I said in my first statement the Patriots use 2 TEs effectively and I find it hard to believe if all things were even money wise Scott Chandler would rather play for the Buffalo Bills than the New England Patriots. Athletes like to win, it is a competitive sport. Not to mention Gronkowski has missed more than half the games in the last 2 seasons and was months removed from major knee surgery in March.

I guess we could have used a draft pick in the first or second round to make you feel better, but it wouldn't have made this team appreciably better.

We traded the #93 pick in the draft for 2 picks that we used to draft #105 and #179 where we selected Stork and Halapio, my memory is not great but aren’t you the poster who suggested neither should make this team in another thread? So we could have stayed at #93 and selected Richard Rodgers who is having an outstanding camp in Green Bay, or Crockett Gillmore who is having an excellent camp for Baltimore. That is what I would have done, instead of trading the pick and then drafting 2 OL that were projected as 7th round to UDFAs by predraft projections.

 

[Brady6]

NO. When we had 2 starting, probowl caliber TEs we played 2 TE more.
Who do you think we could have signed to replace what Hernandez was?

I think you are missing the point right now we have a converted OL as our only healthy TE. Please do not sit here and act like we could not have done anything different. That is downright ridiculous to even assert.

Also we played 2 TE last season and in 2012 and we did not have 2 pro bowl TEs on the field in either season with the exception of a few games in 2012 when Gronkowski and Hernandez were healthy at the same time.

 

[Brady6]

1) Many posters would feel more comfortable if we drafted someone as Gronk's backup. The fact that Belichick probably doesn't think that any were better than Hooman doesn't seem to matter.

Do we even know what is wrong with the all pro Hooman? Everyone is talking about him as the primary backup and he has not been on the practice field in almost 3 weeks.

 

[Brady6]

In 2012, the last season with Hernandez and Gronk they ran the 3WR 1TE offense almost the exact amount of times they ran the 2TE 2WR offense (567-531). In 2013 up until Gronk's injury the ran out of a 3 WR, 1TE set 449 times and A 2TE, 2WR set 215 times. That's with Hooman and Mulligan as the only backups and with Gronk missing the first 6 games.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2013/12/replacing_rob_gronkowski.html

For what it is worth Gronkowski and Hernandez played 2¼ games together in 2012.

 

[Brady6]

In defense of Brady6, I take Voltaire's maxim but slightly altered. I will forever defend Brady6s right to write and spout ridiculous assertions.

But when he does, I feel no obligation to NOT criticize the resultant tripe.

I appreciate the fact you defend me, but in this case I really do not see the ridiculousness. We could have and should have done a better job building depth behind Gronkowski, we saw the impact of his loss last season and to just move forward with that same risk is negligent. Overall we have a great team, and no team is perfect but they did not do a good job at the TE position this offseason.

 

[PatriotReign]

Oh yeah! Justin Jones' redemption starts now.

 

[Brady6]

Oh yeah! Justin Jones' redemption starts now.

He is an intriguing prospect for the practice squad.

 

[Ring 6]

I think you are missing the point right now we have a converted OL as our only healthy TE. Please do not sit here and act like we could not have done anything different. That is downright ridiculous to even assert.

We could have done a ton of things but none of the realistic options would have made us significantly better than Gronk, Hooman and whoever.
I don't really care that we didnt' have future construction workers as preseason backups, so no it doesn't bother me that we lacked depth in a preseason game. Clearly BB felt the same or he could have kept Jones, Watson or Hartsock around.

Also we played 2 TE last season and in 2012 and we did not have 2 pro bowl TEs on the field in either season with the exception of a few games in 2012 when Gronkowski and Hernandez were healthy at the same time.

We had Gronk and Hernandez in 2012 both recently extended for long terms. Of course our offense was 2 TEs.

 

[Ring 6]

Why not? This team used 2 TEs better than any other NFL team in the history of the league. Also as far as depth goes, in 2011 the year of the TE for the Patriots we had 2 TEs on our roster and we signed and waived Dan Gronkowski a few times. So suggesting we needed depth in order to commit to a type of offense is unsupported.

Because we would not be a 2 TE base with Scott Chandler. He chose to stay in Buffalo because he is content with his role there. Should we have kidnapped him?

I do not think we can have another Gronkowski, just like I do not think Mallett or Garopollo are anything even remotely close to the type of QB Brady is. The gap though, does not have to be as significant, calling Hooman a JAG would be a compliment.

But it kind of does, because significantly better players than Hooman would not come here to be sparingly used backups.

Daniels, Carlson, Myers, and ****son all changed teams.

All went to better situations for playing time that they would have gotten here. They did not want to come here. Again, do we kidnap them? Do we overpay a backup TE?
Daniels is done. Carlson is starting for Az. Myers is starting for the Giants. ****son is a guy we could have pursued, but he went to a team that is returning none of its WRs and ****son is a guy who when asked step into Pittas role ended up with 25 catches and 5 drops.
The difference between Ed ****son and Hooman deserves a ho hum not 150 posts.

Like I said in my first statement the Patriots use 2 TEs effectively and I find it hard to believe if all things were even money wise Scott Chandler would rather play for the Buffalo Bills than the New England Patriots. Athletes like to win, it is a competitive sport. Not to mention Gronkowski has missed more than half the games in the last 2 seasons and was months removed from major knee surgery in March.

All things are not equal. The Patriots ran the 2 TE effectively because they had 2 excellent TEs not because of something in the water in Foxboro. Chandler is absolutely not a guy I would take a WR away from Tom Brady to make a starter.
Scott Chandler has been in the NFL 7 years and caught 135 passes for 1623 yards. In his last 3 when he has played much more he has averaged about 45 catches and 530 yards. That is NOT a guy who will make you forget Gronk if he is injured and NOT a guy you would take Tom Brady's slot receiver away from him to make a starter.

We traded the #93 pick in the draft for 2 picks that we used to draft #105 and #179 where we selected Stork and Halapio, my memory is not great but aren’t you the poster who suggested neither should make this team in another thread?

What does that have to do with the TE postion?

So we could have stayed at #93 and selected Richard Rodgers who is having an outstanding camp in Green Bay, or Crockett Gillmore who is having an excellent camp for Baltimore. That is what I would have done, instead of trading the pick and then drafting 2 OL that were projected as 7th round to UDFAs by predraft projections.

Gotcha, so good or bad is based on what kind of camp you think a guy is having and what draft magazines you read.
Aren't you the guy who has been Sybil regarding Halapio? Now he sucks because it fits your argument? Which is it? First he sucked so you could trash the draft, then he was going to start so you could trash Wendell and Connolly, now he sucks again so you can create a scenario to draft a TE who has proven nothing yet?

 

[ATippett56]

Oh yeah! Justin Jones' redemption starts now.

The next Zach Dudfeld.

 

[Ring 6]

Manieri and Hartsock were available to start Training Camp? I missed it.

Not sure what that means.

My point is that we should have signed the 2 Hooman types that you say we could have before camp.

Maybe we disagree on what 'Hooman types' are. They are JAGs that won't embarrass themselves on the field but won't do much more. They are a tremendous dropoff from Gronk, and not much of a dropoff to a guy off the street who can block on this team, because there was no one available that Tom Brady is going to throw the ball to regularly if Gronk is out. In fact, they would probably be blocking as much as they would be running routes on PASS plays.

I agree that Hooman would likely to still have been the backup to Gronk. Personally, I think that there is an advantage to having competition for Hooman. Also, I think that there is an advantage to have a couple of players who played for us during camp who MIGHT need to be on the 53 depending on how healthy Hooman and Gronk are.

Sure there is an advantage to having multiple JAGs compete, just as there is an advantage to having young players with high upside but issues compete for the last spot.

You seem to think it is OK not to have any backups for Hooman. You seem to think that it is OK for Hooman not to have any competition for his roster spot in camp.

Do I? Thanks for telling me what I think.
There won't be a backup to Hooman because the 3rd TE will be an undersized OT who only blocks. Thats been the MO for years.

OK, I don't think that our starting OT's should be taking reps at TE late in a preseason game.

I don't think that actually hapened.

So, I was not OK with the TE situation. Also, it would have helped the offense to have TE's who actually play the position. That way, the offensive line play and other play might have been more "normal", and not be colored by the fact that no TE was available.

We played a TE all game. Your complaint is that we didn't have someone to sub for Maneri.

BOTTOM LINE
You're right. Who plays in preseason games doesn't matter. The games themselves don't matter. However, if they are truly to prepare for the season, then having TE's on the field helps. In the end, if Gronk and Hooman are healthy for Game One, none of this discussion matters. If one is not, we'll simply say that we were unlucky not to have even one backup in case of injury.

We had TEs on the field. The guys who will be playing in the regular season were not available. Does it really matter that we played the current #3 TE all game, instead of having other scrubs to relieve him? It was actually a great way to assess Maneri.

So, now it YOU who are saying that Williams can be a backup to Gronk? NOT

I did? When?

So, now it is YOU who think that we should depend on UDFA's and not being in JAG veterans? Really?

I am saying what was available was crap, and the position they would be filling was minor.
Gronk is the TE, and he will play almost every snap.
If Gronk is injured there was no TE available that we could have gotten that would have resulted in the TE position being key in the passing game. In our offense and with Brady, the TE is used to make plays down the field, not to catch passes underneath, like all the TE who catch 40 dump off a year and people think could replace Gronk. Brady throws these passes to WRs.
It would be wonderful if we had a back up who could be 50% of Gronk. None was available.

The difference between having Hooman, the JAGs bandied about in this thread or the next guy off the street if Gronk goes down is not significant to this offense. Gronk in the passing game would be replaced by WRs, not a JAG TE.
Thats how I see it.

 

[Bombdog]

Welcome back Justin Jones you have a second chance make the most of it. You may never have another chance to play in the NFL. Grab this opportunity and give it all you have.

 

[Ring 6]

How about 50 catches then? They've both had years in which they've started 16 games and had over 50 catches which would make them capable, unlike Hoomananawui, of being a functional part of the offense if pressed into starting. That's all this stupid debate is about - someone better than Hoomananawui. Your weapon/security blanket statement is simply an attempt to disqualify anyone that disproves or discredits your POV.

Ed ****son was given Pitta's role last year and caught 25 passes and dropped 5.
Hooman would probably have done about the same.
****son here, would have done about what Hooman did. Lets recognize that scheme and QB have as much to do with medicore players catch total as their own ability.
Carlson went to the Cardinals for a starting job. You are saying he would have come here instead to be a backup?
Brady is not a QB who dumps it off to a medicore TE 50 times. Look at his history.
Ben Watson was a guy who could get downfield like Gronk. Even he only caught 165 passes in 5 years here.

Fauira caught 79 passes from Brady in 4 years.
Daniel Graham caught 120 in 5 years.
Chris Baker coming off 93 catches in 3 seasons, caught 14.
Kyle Brady who averaged about 30 catches a season for his career, caught 9 from Brady.

Watson, Fauria, Graham, if not the other 2, and far better than any backup TE that we could have gotten this year, and many of the ones who wouldn't even come here because of the lack of a role.

 

[Brady6]

We could have done a ton of things but none of the realistic options would have made us significantly better than Gronk, Hooman and whoever.
I don't really care that we didnt' have future construction workers as preseason backups, so no it doesn't bother me that we lacked depth in a preseason game. Clearly BB felt the same or he could have kept Jones, Watson or Hartsock around.

I disagree, we could have done many different things, something as simple as signing better UDFA prospects would have gone a long way.

We had Gronk and Hernandez in 2012 both recently extended for long terms. Of course our offense was 2 TEs.

Or we just resigned our 2 most dynamic playmakers to long term deals. They played 2 ¼ games together.

 

[captain stone]

Bill correctly understood that having 2 TEs with pass-catching ability & at least one of which with run-blocking ability was the best way to execute a hurry-up, no-huddle offense because of the matchup difficulties it presented to defenses. Both the run & pass were always available, so defenses had no idea what personnel groupings to use, and if a particular one was to Brady's liking then he could force the opponent to keep that grouping on the field without the opportunity to substitute. It was a joy to behold.

Gronk's injuries the last 3 seasons have been extremely unfortunate; they have cost us IMHO at least one more SB. Replacing someone of his caliber is just about impossible, I understand that. We just have to hope that he can stay healthy going forward.

However I would think that replacing The Prisoner would not be quite as daunting; we're basically looking for another Big WR with the ability & willingness to chip & run, not necessarily maintain blocking on the LOS like Gronk can.

There have been opportunities the last year-1/2 to add a reasonable facsimile, yet Bill has chosen not to invest the money or effort toward finding one. Maybe DJWilliams is the answer, though most of us don't believe he is. I would've given Asa Watson another week to see if he could clean up whatever mistakes he was making during TC practices. I'm a little surprised at Bill's lack of patience with him, especially when considering who was signed to replace him.

 

[Ring 6]

I disagree, we could have done many different things, something as simple as signing better UDFA prospects would have gone a long way.

I just said we could have done many different things, but in the end they would not have made an appreciable difference. You seem to be looking for effort instead of results. We could have signed better UDFAs? Explain? You think BB went after the ones he didn't think were the best? Weren't you touting the UDFA TE early as great signings? Do you think BB just decided to ignore the good ones and play around with some crappy ones to annoy you? I don't understand your thinking here.
Can you give me the list of the 'better' UDFAs that you knew he should have signed instead?

Or we just resigned our 2 most dynamic playmakers to long term deals. They played 2 ¼ games together.

How many games they played isn't really relevant to how we designed the offense in the preceeding preseason.
I would say Welker was a more dynamic weapon than Hernandez, btw.

 

[Ring 6]

Bill correctly understood that having 2 TEs with pass-catching ability & at least one of which with run-blocking ability was the best way to execute a hurry-up, no-huddle offense because of the matchup difficulties it presented to defenses. Both the run & pass were always available, so defenses had no idea what personnel groupings to use, and if a particular one was to Brady's liking then he could force the opponent to keep that grouping on the field without the opportunity to substitute. It was a joy to behold.
Gronk's injuries the last 3 seasons have been extremely unfortunate; they have cost us IMHO at least one more SB. Replacing someone of his caliber is just about impossible, I understand that. We just have to hope that he can stay healthy going forward.
However I would think that replacing The Prisoner would not be quite as daunting; we're basically looking for another Big WR with the ability & willingness to chip & run, not necessarily maintain blocking on the LOS like Gronk can.
There have been opportunities the last year-1/2 to add a reasonable facsimile, yet Bill has chosen not to invest the money or effort toward finding one. Maybe DJWilliams is the answer, though most of us don't believe he is. I would've given Asa Watson another week to see if he could clean up whatever mistakes he was making during TC practices. I'm a little surprised at Bill's lack of patience with him, especially when considering who was signed to replace him.

We replaced the Murderer by changing to a 3 WR scheme.
If you go back to those seasons, we had Welker, Hernandez, Gronk and an outside receiver.
We now have Edelman, Amendola, (with Lafell in the mix too) and an outside receiver.

While you make an excellent point about the value of that extra receiver being considered a TE if you can't find one who plays like a WR, you don't have what you want.
Gronk/Hernandez was unique and being locked in to replacing it would be silly, because there are few players out there that would truly fit the Hernandez role. Instead they scrapped the unique offense and found a better way to get receivers open for The Goat.

 

[Brady6]

Because we would not be a 2 TE base with Scott Chandler. He chose to stay in Buffalo because he is content with his role there. Should we have kidnapped him?

You do not know what we would have been in, and you have no idea if we attempted to sign Chandler or anyone attempted to sign him. So you saying he chose to stay in Buffalo as if we had an offer on the table is false.

But it kind of does, because significantly better players than Hooman would not come here to be sparingly used backups.

How do you know what they would have done, how do you know if we tried to sign them you do not. That is your assumption, not an actuality.

All went to better situations for playing time that they would have gotten here. They did not want to come here. Again, do we kidnap them? Do we overpay a backup TE?

Daniels is done. Carlson is starting for Az. Myers is starting for the Giants. ****son is a guy we could have pursued, but he went to a team that is returning none of its WRs and ****son is a guy who when asked step into Pittas role ended up with 25 catches and 5 drops.

The difference between Ed ****son and Hooman deserves a ho hum not 150 posts.

Do you really think players value starting over winning? If all things are equal financially most veterans are going to go to the team that give them the best shot at a championship. There is very few situations better (if any) than New England for any player at any position.


The biggest thing you are missing is we need more than just Hooman, who himself has not practiced in 3 weeks.

All things are not equal. The Patriots ran the 2 TE effectively because they had 2 excellent TEs not because of something in the water in Foxboro. Chandler is absolutely not a guy I would take a WR away from Tom Brady to make a starter.

Did you watch the game the other day? We spent as much time in a 2 TE offense as we did in a spread, we had to use an OL or FB to fill in for the lack of depth. You are way off acting like the 2 TE offense is long gone and we only ever have 1 TE on the field.

Scott Chandler has been in the NFL 7 years and caught 135 passes for 1623 yards. In his last 3 when he has played much more he has averaged about 45 catches and 530 yards. That is NOT a guy who will make you forget Gronk if he is injured and NOT a guy you would take Tom Brady's slot receiver away from him to make a starter.

Do you think that Mallett or Garopollo are going to make you forget about Brady? No, but they are still decent depth.

Gotcha, so good or bad is based on what kind of camp you think a guy is having and what draft magazines you read.

Aren't you the guy who has been Sybil regarding Halapio? Now he sucks because it fits your argument? Which is it? First he sucked so you could trash the draft, then he was going to start so you could trash Wendell and Connolly, now he sucks again so you can create a scenario to draft a TE who has proven nothing yet?

I am not the one who said Halapio sucked, you said he does not deserve a roster spot, and you said Stork does not either, so I took your opinion and i looked at how else we could have used those picks to help the TE position and came up with that. I was happy you pointed it out, good call.

 

[Brady6]

How many games they played isn't really relevant to how we designed the offense in the preceeding preseason.

You think that they did not make adjustments to the offense in season? We certainly did not start last season as a power run team but we made the changes because we had too. They did the same thing in 2012, they used a lot more 3 WR sets.

I would say Welker was a more dynamic weapon than Hernandez, btw.

Say that to his face...