***THE OFFICIAL 2014 New England Patriots training camp thread***

[shmessy]

@Marqui--while Malcolm Butler has been a very nice TC/preseason story, don't we see this every single year from a different player or two? Preseason super heroes who don't make the team?

I posed the question as to whether Butler could make the team, thus making Ryan even more expendable to move over to safety. While it's a fair question to ponder, I doubt that you're going to find too many who share your sentiment that "Butler is a lock." He's making a nice case for himself, but he's got a tough road ahead with the competition in front of him.

Many writers were pounding the drum about this guy for days before the Redskins game and then he put on a show (playing just about the full game).

He also made a pretty nifty special teams tackle in the Washington game last week. BB loves that kind of roster versatility. Gonna be very hard to keep him off the roster. This week has only been more of the same

All that being said, there is NO WAY that Malcolm Butler is ahead of Dennard or Ryan on the depth chart at this time.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, people that don't think he's flying up the depth chart are just in denial about it at this point. Wouldn't be the first time an UDFA rose up the ranks quickly.

I would consider denial calling a player who hasn't played a snap in the NFL who is small and slow for his position a lock, and 'ahead of' guys like Dennard because he hasn't spit the bit yet.

 

[shmessy]

(

I would think so too. He has proven himself at an NFL RS level, something Butler has not. I am sure there isnt one person here who does not want Butler to become the next Revis but lets take it easy here.

Why is everyone categorizing Butler as only battling other CB's for a job?

He looked damn good out there on ST's last week also.

Is Ebner (who cannot play Safety to save his life) or Chris White (who cannot play LB to save his life) really that indispensable? At least Butler is showing he can actually play a position along with ST's. Helps with roster flexibility.

 

[Ring 6]

Many writers were pounding the drum about this guy for days before the Redskins game and then he put on a show (playing just about the full game).

He also made a pretty nifty special teams tackle in the Washington game last week. BB loves that kind of roster versatility. Gonna be very hard to keep him off the roster. This week has only been more of the same.

I think this is where a lot of confusion is coming from. He played mostly against backups, and while he made some plays, the biggest takeaway from his performance was that he was thrown at so much because his man was open. Letting medicore players get open and then making a play is not stardom.

 

[Bruins29]

Why is everyone categorizing Butler as only battling other CB's for a job?

He looked damn good out there on ST's last week.

Is Ebner really that indispensable?

Really? Did not know he was a ST guy. Gunner I assume? I like the guy and hope he sticks. I just dont think he is ahead of 4 starting CBs. Cant actually believe the Pats have 4 starting caliber CBs. Never thought I would say that.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Yes, people that don't think he's flying up the depth chart are just in denial about it at this point. Wouldn't be the first time an UDFA rose up the ranks quickly.

I'll wait and see with Butler, but BB plays the best players. People questioned KT's roster spot last year all the way until the 3rd preseason game. He started week 1.

Based off all of camp, and preseason game 1, Butler's a better man to man outside CB than Arrington and Ryan.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, by giving him consistent 1st team reps over all the others.

Fernando Bryant say hi.

 

[Marqui]

For instance, the fact that Stork saw first team reps at center doesn't necessarily mean that he overtook Connelly and Wendell.

No, but it means he's past Braxston Cave and Chris Barker and is top 3 at his position, which is what I said about Butler.

I don't think that anything has suggested that "he's passed Ryan and Dennard." I think different players are going to see first team reps.

Well when that happens I'll take that into consideration. Until then...

 

[Bruins29]

No, but it means he's past Braxston Cave and Chris Barker and is a top 3 center, which is what I said.

Well when that happens I'll take that into consideration. Until then...

Stork over Cave and Barker is not the same thing as Butler and Dennard, Revis, Browner, and Arrington.

You do see the difference right?

 

[Ring 6]

No, but it means he's past Braxston Cave and Chris Barker and is a top 3 center, which is what I said.

No it doesn't. Van Hooser got reps with the 1s today, did he pass all the WRs?
Is Devery a starter now?
You just don't seem to understand how preseason works.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

 

[shmessy]

I think this is where a lot of confusion is coming from. He played mostly against backups, and while he made some plays, the biggest takeaway from his performance was that he was thrown at so much because his man was open. Letting medicore players get open and then making a play is not stardom.

I was in the stadium and had a damn good view. He wasn't letting much of anyone get open. The one completion I saw on him was an incredible rollout and needle threading sideline dive throw from Colt McCoy in the 3rd quarter. No one could have defended that any better. In the 1st quarter he completely shut down Aldrick Robinson. The play where Robinson caught his TD, was the one time that Logan Ryan was in coverage on him. The next series for Washington, they tried the very same play with Butler in coverage and Butler denied it.

I'm not saying he is ahead of any of the top 5 CB's. I am saying that if his ST capablilities are consistently as good as I saw last Thursday (including an impressive solo tackle on a kickoff), then he brings more to the table as an all around roster benefit than a Nate Ebner or Chris White.

 

[shmessy]

Really? Did not know he was a ST guy. Gunner I assume? I like the guy and hope he sticks. I just dont think he is ahead of 4 starting CBs. Cant actually believe the Pats have 4 starting caliber CBs. Never thought I would say that.

He made a VERY nice stick on a kickoff in the game. Even the 'Skins fan a row behind me said "That kid is doing everything but sell popcorn tonight".

 

[Marqui]

Van Hooser got reps with the 1s today, did he pass all the WRs?

All the WRs who didn't get any 1st team reps? Yes.

Is Devery a starter now?

Yes, definitely a top 3 RG. He's certainly ahead of all the RGs who haven't got looks with the 1st team.

You just don't seem to understand how preseason works.

I understand how preseason works quite well actually.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I still think that it's more of a situation where although Harmon hasn't exactly jumped out due to great playmaking thus far, the decision to rotate and give others opportunities is more of a normal and expected TC exercise.

I'm not sure why anyone should have expected a rookie from last year who only saw 36% of the reps to have stepped in and "automatically" have the position locked up? That wouldn't make much sense to me.

Which one is it? Has Harmon really sucked so far? Or is more of what I'm suggesting, in terms of allowing others to battle for the spot, per usual? At the end of the day, I still expect Duron Harmon to be the main S2. Just my opinion.

I have always been suspicious of the total disregard for our S2 . It was true that both Sanders and Gregory were game, but undersized. I thought much of the criticism came from youth, inexperience, and the failings of the youthful CBs.

I continue to dis-beleive that three high picks, 2 Twos and a Three, are ALL Bust/incompetents. One maybe, Two suspicious but possible, Three very doubtful. There must be other reasons or causes.

The youthful CBs, the poor Pass Rush, the problems at LB, or all combined, are more likely the culprit. Now the CBs are much better. The starting LB problems are solved, and the Pass Rush is better.

I think at least One, or all three Safeties, now no longer rookies, can play S2 satisfactorily. I expect the 2014 season to confirm that point of view.

 

[Ring 6]

I was in the stadium and had a damn good view. He wasn't letting much of anyone get open. The one completion I saw on him was an incredible rollout and needle threading sideline dive throw from Colt McCoy in the 3rd quarter. No one could have defended that any better. In the 1st quarter he completely shut down Aldrick Robinson. The play where Robinson caught his TD, was the one time that Logan Ryan was in coverage on him. The next series for Washington, they tried the very same play with Butler in coverage and Butler denied it.

I'm not saying he is ahead of any of the top 5 CB's. I am saying that if his ST capablilities are consistently as good as I saw last Thursday (including an impressive solo tackle on a kickoff), then he brings more to the table as an all around roster benefit than a Nate Ebner or Chris White.

They were throwing at him all night. And more than one was completed.
I appreciate your viewpoint but the QB deciding to throw to his is a better gauge to me of whether he is open than what you saw from the stands.

 

[Ring 6]

All the WRs who didn't get any 1st team reps? Yes.

Yes, definitely a top 3 RG. He's certainly ahead of all the RGs who haven't got looks with the 1st team.

I understand how preseason works quite well actually.

Ok if that is what you believe fine. I disagree and there is no point beating a dead horse. Perhaps at cutdown time you will realize what I am saying.

 

[Deus Irae]

There's some terrible logic being attempted in this thread. Trying to say that Butler, or Ryan, is ahead of Dennard because of them running with the first team is like trying to say that OhOh and Williams are ahead of Gronk because of the snaps they've been taking.

 

[mgteich]

I would think that Logan Ryan (the 2nd lowest QB rating against at 53.3 last season to Richard Sherman) would be clearly ahead of Butler as well--thus making FIVE CBs ahead of him.

Butler is a nice story, but he's got a tough road ahead. Of course, we'll all be rooting for him.

It would seem likely that we carry 5 corners for the first 4 weeks, with Butler being one of the five, at least for some of that period. When Browner is back, we'll have a decision to make. Do you disagree?

If we want to wonder about end of roster spots, we might wonder how many safeties we will keep on the 53. I have seen number between 4 and 6, ditto for linebackers.

So, for me, corner is a non-issue (or rather one decided when we traded Green). Butler should be an emergency backup for the first four weeks(at least). If all turns out well, he could certainly stay.

 

[mgteich]

There's some terrible logic being attempted in this thread. Trying to say that Butler, or Ryan, is ahead of Dennard because of them running with the first team is like trying to say that OhOh and Williams are ahead of Gronk because of the snaps they've been taking.

I agree.

Didn't Ebner take a few reps with the 1's last week or the week before?