Patriots 2013 Training Camp: Day 6, Thursday August 1

[manxman2601]

But who actually says he is the worst QB in the league and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. That's a strawman just like the bigot argument.
Clearly he is one of the worst because he is struggling to be employed in the league as a QB and seems to be on the only team that will give h a shot.
If 31 teams don't want you then in fact you are one of the worst

There are plenty of NFL stars in the league that can lay claim to that title*. Like our #1 QB for example.

*not wanted by 31 other teams.

 

[Ring 6]

There are plenty of NFL stars in the league that can lay claim to that title*. Like our #1 QB for example.

*not wanted by 31 other teams.

Of course we know that isn't true.

 

[manxman2601]

Of course we know that isn't true.

Would he have been drafted if we hadn't taken him? Maybe on Brady but that doesn't change my point, there are plenty of very successful UDFAs in the NFL right now.

And I think this "wasn't wanted" argument is a red herring anyway. For one, there's no evidence for it - no-one knows when or if he would have been signed. For two, he was signed so he was clearly wanted by us and I trust BB more than most or any other GM in the NFL. And three, so what. It's not relevant to future performance.

 

[Demosthenes]

Of course we know that isn't true.

Brady wasn't passed over by the other 31 teams about 6 times each ??


Anyhow, Andy, I'll offer you the same challenge that I extended to SB1. See if you can find any "Tebowite" or "Tebowfan" complaining about a lucid and factual critique or criticism of Tebow.

You'll have to search far and wide because it really doesn't happen.

Here's what most of us readily understand about Tebow. He definitely has his faults. He can be accurate, but not nearly as so as Brady. He is however wildly inconsistent. Some throws are very nice, others make you cringe. He also has trouble reading defenses. This leads to him holding onto the ball for too long. Some question whether he has the capacity to make quick decisions.


That's just a quick list, and by no means is it complete.


Thing is though, just about every single thing on that list is coachable and can be fixed. That's what many of us are hoping for.

 

[Ring 6]

I don't want to accuse you of being obtuse but if you want to find examples of those kind of statements against Tebow they really aren't hard to find.

Then you should be able to show me an example?
My point is that is an exaggeration, and my point in the thread is that everyone on the Tebow is good side argues against these kind of strawmen.

 

[Ring 6]

Would he have been drafted if we hadn't taken him? Maybe on Brady but that doesn't change my point, there are plenty of very successful UDFAs in the NFL right now.

And I think this "wasn't wanted" argument is a red herring anyway. For one, there's no evidence for it - no-one knows when or if he would have been signed. For two, he was signed so he was clearly wanted by us and I trust BB more than most or any other GM in the NFL. And three, so what. It's not relevant to future performance.

So? Lets say he wasn't drafted. Many teams would have offered him a UDFA contract. The comparison is just wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady wasn't passed over by the other 31 teams about 6 times each ??

As I said above, that is apples to oranges.

Anyhow, Andy, I'll offer you the same challenge that I extended to SB1. See if you can find any "Tebowite" or "Tebowfan" complaining about a lucid and factual critique or criticism of Tebow.

I don't really care. I am saying that the Tebow fans try to discredit the criticism with persecution, hater, or bigot comments. Discrediting the person making the argument with a strawman is the same thing.

You'll have to search far and wide because it really doesn't happen.

Here's what most of us readily understand about Tebow. He definitely has his faults. He can be accurate, but not nearly as so as Brady. He is however wildly inconsistent. Some throws are very nice, others make you cringe. He also has trouble reading defenses. This leads to him holding onto the ball for too long. Some question whether he has the capacity to make quick decisions.

He does not throw the football well enough to effectively run an NFL offense. You can sugar coat it all you want but thats the truth. I don't really care what percentage of his throws look nice, I just know that percentage is not enough to be an effective passer in the NFL.

That's just a quick list, and by no means is it complete.


Thing is though, just about every single thing on that list is coachable and can be fixed. That's what many of us are hoping for.

I don't understand why you would take a player with numerous flaws, and those flaws being the primary fucntion of his position and hope he can be coached up (after many years of it not happening) when you can find someone who doesn't have the flaws.

In a nutshell, I would not take a QB who doesnt throw well because maybe I can teach him to instead of a QB who can throw well.
Thats really what it boils down to.
I know you like the man, so your opinion is biased, but while as a fan of the player, you hope he can be fixed, as a fan of the team I'd rather have someone who isn't broken.

 

[manxman2601]

So? Lets say he wasn't drafted. Many teams would have offered him a UDFA contract. The comparison is just wrong.

I'm afraid I disagree. Lots of people get signed as UDFAs, the fact that they went undrafted shows that teams aren'y very high on them. Regardless, saying 31 teams didn't want Tebow is completely baseless. All you can say is that no-one had signed him up to the point that we had. Anything else is pure guesswork. After all, Richard Seymour hasn't signed anywhere yet. Would you say that 32 teams don't want him? I just think it means that 32 teams haven't signed him yet.

 

[moosekill]

Here you go Andy, I looked real hard, just a few quotes from the first 10 pages of 104 pages when we signed Tebow.

Well Bill, enjoy the circus.

Patsfans posters, get ready for Tebow's army of idiots to come flooding to the board.

He's a cancer, a waste of a roster spot, will bring a media circus and is a pointless cap hit.

Even if he doesn't mean to be, he is.

He split the Broncos locker room, he split the Jets locker room (although that place was already a mess), his refusal to play anywhere but QB is not indicative of a team player nor that of a Patriot either.

Embarrassing isn't a strong enough adjective for my thoughts on the subject.

Name one way this could help.

Tebow is a horrible qb. He's not a leader, contrary to what all the media says. He's a "all about me" type of guy.

Absolutely HATE this move.
Guy is a locker room cancer and a huge annoyance in terms of media attention. He can't play QB to save his life and he will never get a chance to play QB here. You can't sit here and tell me that you're going to pull Tom Brady off the field for some guy who couldn't even make it in the CFL as a QB. He won't make a positive impact for the Pats this year.
Dumb move.

You underestimate the power of the Tim Ego. His 1st reason for being on this earth is to tell everyone about ************. Get ready to be forcefed christianity.
Sure they might keep Tebow away from the camera and not have him do pressers every day but that wont stop the press from asking about him time after time after time after time. The Tebow circus is bigger than any one NFL team - EVERY presser will have Tebow questions interlaced in them.

 

[moosekill]

Then you should be able to show me an example?
My point is that is an exaggeration, and my point in the thread is that everyone on the Tebow is good side argues against these kind of strawmen.

Do those quotes count?.

 

[Ring 6]

Do those quotes count?.

No in fact they do not.
The argument was that Tebow detractors said he 'is the worst QB there is" and 'couldn't hit the broad side of a barn'.
That is not what it says in the quotes you listed. My point being that what was claimed would indicate a lack of thought and potential bias, and what you listed were actual opinions that have some validility.
People thinking Tebow is a bad QB is not an example of an ax to grind or a bigotry it is an example of people who look at his play and honestly assessing it.

 

[manxman2601]

No in fact they do not.
The argument was that Tebow detractors said he 'is the worst QB there is" and 'couldn't hit the broad side of a barn'.
That is not what it says in the quotes you listed. My point being that what was claimed would indicate a lack of thought and potential bias, and what you listed were actual opinions that have some validility.
People thinking Tebow is a bad QB is not an example of an ax to grind or a bigotry it is an example of people who look at his play and honestly assessing it.

Huh?

You underestimate the power of the Tim Ego. His 1st reason for being on this earth is to tell everyone about ************. Get ready to be forcefed christianity.

This is an opinion that has validity?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm afraid I disagree. Lots of people get signed as UDFAs, the fact that they went undrafted shows that teams aren'y very high on them. Regardless, saying 31 teams didn't want Tebow is completely baseless. All you can say is that no-one had signed him up to the point that we had. Anything else is pure guesswork. After all, Richard Seymour hasn't signed anywhere yet. Would you say that 32 teams don't want him? I just think it means that 32 teams haven't signed him yet.

OK, this is pointless.
You are trying to compare the draft and an over the hill injured player to a guy supposedly in the prime of his career who no one wanted.
If that makes you happy, go ahead but its just not reasonable.

 

[Ring 6]

Huh?




This is an opinion that has validity?

I'm talking about football. I could care less about clowns talking about his personal life.

 

[Ring 6]

Huh?




This is an opinion that has validity?

You do realize that the discussion was about people out of bias deneigrating his football ability right?
The specific claim was that he is the worst QB there is, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
People objecting to his politics or religion isn't part of that discussion.

 

[Demosthenes]

As I said above, that is apples to oranges.

Actually, we have no idea if any other team would have signed him as an UDFA.

I don't really care. I am saying that the Tebow fans try to discredit the criticism with persecution, hater, or bigot comments. Discrediting the person making the argument with a strawman is the same thing.

Again, point to ANY example of this actually happening. You won't find it. If someone says that Tebow has poor mechanics and is inconsistent, they aren't getting attacked for saying so. Neither are people being attacked for saying that Tebow has trouble reading defenses or getting the ball out on time.

You are conflating objective analysis/valid criticism and over the top BS. The two are not the same.

If someone says "Tebow is very inconsistent", I, and most others will agree with them. If someone says "He's the worst QB ever", I'll demonstrate that the person is clueless.

He does not throw the football well enough to effectively run an NFL offense. You can sugar coat it all you want but thats the truth. I don't really care what percentage of his throws look nice, I just know that percentage is not enough to be an effective passer in the NFL.

If some decent percentage of the throws look nice, it means that he has decent/good mechanics/skills, but that he's inconsistent. That's something that can be fixed by spending hours out on the practice field.

I don't understand why you would take a player with numerous flaws, and those flaws being the primary fucntion of his position and hope he can be coached up (after many years of it not happening) when you can find someone who doesn't have the flaws.

What ? Teams do it for players in every position. You know, "Player X is entering year 3, its time for him to make a jump".

In a nutshell, I would not take a QB who doesnt throw well because maybe I can teach him to instead of a QB who can throw well.
Thats really what it boils down to.
I know you like the man, so your opinion is biased, but while as a fan of the player, you hope he can be fixed, as a fan of the team I'd rather have someone who isn't broken.

This one really depends on what else the guy offers. It's where those "intangibles" come into play. Things like mechanics and reading defenses can be taught/coached. Those intangibles really can't be. When coaches find guys like that, they invest in trying to teach them and make them better.

They aren't always successful, to be sure, but they believe it to be worth the effort/investment.

 

[manxman2601]

OK, this is pointless.
You are trying to compare the draft and an over the hill injured player to a guy supposedly in the prime of his career who no one wanted.
If that makes you happy, go ahead but its just not reasonable.

I think you may be right.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, we have no idea if any other team would have signed him as an UDFA.

Well the Patriots would have. But if you look at the list of UDFA QBs that were signed, you would understand its a nobrainer to say he would have been.

Again, point to ANY example of this actually happening. You won't find it. If someone says that Tebow has poor mechanics and is inconsistent, they aren't getting attacked for saying so. Neither are people being attacked for saying that Tebow has trouble reading defenses or getting the ball out on time.

Its the whole point of the discussion. Deflecdting the discussion by calling people who think Tebow can't play bigots, haters or saying he was persecuted is happening all over the place. I have made no mention of attacking.

You are conflating objective analysis/valid criticism and over the top BS. The two are not the same.

No I am not.

If someone says "Tebow is very inconsistent", I, and most others will agree with them. If someone says "He's the worst QB ever", I'll demonstrate that the person is clueless.

No one has said he is the worst QB ever. That is the point, you create a strawman to say anyone antiTebow is crazy by making up that they say he is the worst QB ever.
You are exactly proving my argument with yours.

If some decent percentage of the throws look nice, it means that he has decent/good mechanics/skills, but that he's inconsistent. That's something that can be fixed by spending hours out on the practice field.

I totally disagree. Look at it this way. If I canmake 5% of three pointers in an NBA game, you would argue I have the skills and just need practice when in fact I'm a crappy shooter.

What ? Teams do it for players in every position. You know, "Player X is entering year 3, its time for him to make a jump".

Players improve. That does not mean teams will go get players who are weak at their basic skills and hope they improve, they will get players who have the ability and have them improve.
Im sure with 3 years in the Patriots system I would be a better QB, but I would still suck, instead they will take someone who doesnt.

This one really depends on what else the guy offers. It's where those "intangibles" come into play.

Intangibles without tangibles are useless.

 

[moosekill]

You do realize that the discussion was about people out of bias deneigrating his football ability right?
The specific claim was that he is the worst QB there is, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
People objecting to his politics or religion isn't part of that discussion.

No, that isn't true. I started this because I believe a bunch of people hate Tebow and rip him no matter what he does. I think a lot of that comes from his religious beliefs.

 

[moosekill]

Change the argument much? Jeez Andy come on, you want examples, you got them, stop making crap up accept it and move on.