Patriots 2013 Training Camp: Day 6, Thursday August 1

[Kontradiction]

No, that isn't true. I started this because I believe a bunch of people hate Tebow and rip him no matter what he does. I think a lot of that comes from his religious beliefs.

There's definitely a group of people that rip on him because of his religious beliefs, but that group is nowhere near as big as you and a few others are trying to make it out to be. Most people are ripping on him because he simply isn't a very good quarterback and has quite a few very obvious weaknesses.

 

[moosekill]

There's definitely a group of people that rip on him because of his religious beliefs, but that group is nowhere near as big as you and a few others are trying to make it out to be. Most people are ripping on him because he simply isn't a very good quarterback and has quite a few very obvious weaknesses.

Perhaps, although, I think many of the "haters" minds were made up long before they ever saw him play this year, and just rip him no matter what.

 

[manxman2601]

You do realize that the discussion was about people out of bias deneigrating his football ability right?
The specific claim was that he is the worst QB there is, and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
People objecting to his politics or religion isn't part of that discussion.

Maybe we are at cross purposes. My understanding was that an argument was made that there was bigotry involved in the fans reaction to Tebow's presence on the team and that quote was clear evidence of that. If you want to say that bigotry doesn't drive people's critique of Tebow as a football player, then I'd probably disagree but would agree that that quote isn't a smoking gun. I would say that the over the top criticism is certainly indicative of a reason beyond mere footballing reasons for the Tebow dislike in some quarters and that it's not much of a stretch to suppose that religion/politics might be behind that.

 

[Ring 6]

Change the argument much? Jeez Andy come on, you want examples, you got them, stop making crap up accept it and move on.

Look at what I asked for examples of. None of those fit.
The other poster said detractors say he is the worst QB ever and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
What do comments about his religion, the circus he creates, whether he is a good teammate, etc, have to do with that?
You went and found negative comments, that is not what I said I have seen no examples of.

 

[Ring 6]

Maybe we are at cross purposes. My understanding was that an argument was made that there was bigotry involved in the fans reaction to Tebow's presence on the team and that quote was clear evidence of that. If you want to say that bigotry doesn't drive people's critique of Tebow as a football player, then I'd probably disagree but would agree that that quote isn't a smoking gun. I would say that the over the top criticism is certainly indicative of a reason beyond mere footballing reasons for the Tebow dislike in some quarters and that it's not much of a stretch to suppose that religion/politics might be behind that.

Not liking someone is not bigotry. I don't like a guy I work with because I disagree with his demeanor and attitude. That is not bigotry, it is just not liking someone. Tebow has more of that because he puts his opinions and attitudes out there. That does not equal bigotry.
But the point of the conversation at this stage was that the opinions of Tebow as a football player are tainted, and I disagree.

 

[manxman2601]

Not liking someone is not bigotry. I don't like a guy I work with because I disagree with his demeanor and attitude. That is not bigotry, it is just not liking someone. Tebow has more of that because he puts his opinions and attitudes out there. That does not equal bigotry.
But the point of the conversation at this stage was that the opinions of Tebow as a football player are tainted, and I disagree.

I think they are. No-one can dislike someone for pure football reasons to the extent that some clearly do. They have to be motivated by more than mere football.

 

[Kontradiction]

Perhaps, although, I think many of the "haters" minds were made up long before they ever saw him play this year, and just rip him no matter what.

Tebow's a strange cat. There are four groups that comprise his "following". I feel that they are as follows...

1. Those that back him no matter what because of his faith.

2. Those that back him no matter what because they believe he is a much better quarterback than his detractors say.

3. Those that rip on him no matter what because of his faith.

4. Those that rip on him no matter what because they believe he is a much worse quarterback than what his apologists say.

Then there are those of us in the middle that acknowledge that the kid has both strengths and weaknesses to his game and that his game actually falls somewhere along those lines. Personally, I don't think he's a very good quarterback. I see weaknesses with mechanics when in the pocket, I see weaknesses in his progressions, and I see weaknesses in his accuracy everywhere besides the deep ball and when he's on the run (where I acknowledge that his mechanics when on a roll out are actually very pretty).

For some reason, those of us in the last paragraph get lumped in with the "haters" more often than not.

EDIT: I also feel that it's important for me to note that I was born and raised a Gator fan...

 

[Ring 6]

Perhaps, although, I think many of the "haters" minds were made up long before they ever saw him play this year, and just rip him no matter what.

Everyones mind is made up before seeing him play this year.
What he does this year, if anything, will alter those opinions.
You are acting as if it is unfair to Tebow to evaluate him.

 

[Ring 6]

I think they are. No-one can dislike someone for pure football reasons to the extent that some clearly do. They have to be motivated by more than mere football.

Liking or not liking him does not taint the evaluation.
I neither like or dislike Tebow, I really couldn't care less.
I evaluate him playing football, and what I see is not influenced by liking him or not.
There have been many players in many sports that are scum bags. That doesnt affect how people evaluate their ability to play.

This is exactly my point.
Tebow suppoerters dismiss the criticism by saying the critics must just not like him.
Thats not the case, they just don't think he is good.

 

[chasa]

Perhaps, although, I think many of the "haters" minds were made up long before they ever saw him play this year, and just rip him no matter what.

I rip Tebow in the same way that i would Rip Ryan leaf if the patriots drafted him.

Neither guy is skilled enough to be an nfl QB.

 

[Mainefan]

How about this: If Tebow were a Muslim or a Hindu or a Sikh or a Jew or a Wiccan, and he could throw long, laser-like passes consistently and get them off quickly, he'd be my binky. I like great football players. I like good football players. I'm not so excited by fair or poor football players.

And as for the "exaggerations" in this thread, such as "he can't hit a barn," I've seen such statements right here about Eli Manning, Philip Rivers and every other quarterback. I've seen whole teams treated with contempt for no good reason other than they were opponents.

It's easy enough to know if Tebow is good enough to stick with the Patriots. If he's on the opening day 53, he is. If he isn't, he isn't. I don't give a damn about his religion, his color, his ethnic background or anything, with the exception of his criminal record. I'd like him to be a good guy, but if he's not such a good guy but a terrific football player, I'll take him.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

OK
THread Ignore ON!

 

[BSR]

OK
THread Ignore ON!

This thread is like listening in on a conversation from the short bus.

What is seriously wrong with you people blabbering on and on about who blabbers more about a subject that supposedly nobody wants to talk about?

 

[Ive_Killed_People]

Liking or not liking him does not taint the evaluation.
I neither like or dislike Tebow, I really couldn't care less.
I evaluate him playing football, and what I see is not influenced by liking him or not.
There have been many players in many sports that are scum bags. That doesnt affect how people evaluate their ability to play.

This is exactly my point.
Tebow suppoerters dismiss the criticism by saying the critics must just not like him.
Thats not the case, they just don't think he is good.

We have quite a few players in our depth chart that people dont think are great football players, are they insulted fifty different times a thread regardless of whether the thread was about them? If you dont think it's a personal bias against the kid then you are the most gullible human who ever lived or the most disingenuous. And I say this to anybody that calls themselves a Patriots fan and is actively mocking and rooting against one of our own(a guy that spends more time with cancer kids than most of you spend with your own kids) then you really need to re-evaluate yourselves as members of the human race.

 

[Demosthenes]

Well the Patriots would have. But if you look at the list of UDFA QBs that were signed, you would understand its a nobrainer to say he would have been.

Of course the Pats would have, proof of that is that they used a draft pick on him. The claim was that 31 other teams would have taken him, but we don't know that to be the case.

Its the whole point of the discussion. Deflecdting the discussion by calling people who think Tebow can't play bigots, haters or saying he was persecuted is happening all over the place. I have made no mention of attacking.


No I am not.

Yeah, you are conflating the two. I've asked for anyone to link to posts where a Tebow supporter is giving someone crap for posting actual analysis or real criticism.

You have to look at the statements that were made by the people who have been challenged. If someone says "Tebow can't hit the broad side of a barn" and that he's "Not an NFL QB", that's not valid criticism or analysis. Rather, it's specious BS and yes, I will challenge that.

No one has said he is the worst QB ever. That is the point, you create a strawman to say anyone antiTebow is crazy by making up that they say he is the worst QB ever.
You are exactly proving my argument with yours.

Again, you apparently aren't reading what some are saying.

I totally disagree. Look at it this way. If I canmake 5% of three pointers in an NBA game, you would argue I have the skills and just need practice when in fact I'm a crappy shooter.

5% is much too low a number. If you really want to get into figures, Tebow is at what? 48% comp %? If he got up to 60% he might just be a decent QB. Plenty of QBs have raised their comp % 12 pts over a couple of years. Hell, with his running ability, I'd settle for the high 50's.

Players improve. That does not mean teams will go get players who are weak at their basic skills and hope they improve, they will get players who have the ability and have them improve.

Im sure with 3 years in the Patriots system I would be a better QB, but I would still suck, instead they will take someone who doesnt.

Intangibles without tangibles are useless.

And tangibles without intangibles are useless. Just ask Ryan Leaf and Todd Marinovich. NFL history is replete with guys who could throw nice passes but couldn't win games or be effective NFL QBs.

I'll go ahead and commit some blasphemy here. Guess what? Geno Smith throws a much prettier ball than Tom Brady. He's got a stronger arm as well. That said, I don't think that Geno Smith will even be 1/10th the QB that Brady is.

 

[Demosthenes]

Tebow's a strange cat. There are four groups that comprise his "following". I feel that they are as follows...

1. Those that back him no matter what because of his faith.

2. Those that back him no matter what because they believe he is a much better quarterback than his detractors say.

3. Those that rip on him no matter what because of his faith.

4. Those that rip on him no matter what because they believe he is a much worse quarterback than what his apologists say.

Then there are those of us in the middle that acknowledge that the kid has both strengths and weaknesses to his game and that his game actually falls somewhere along those lines. Personally, I don't think he's a very good quarterback. I see weaknesses with mechanics when in the pocket, I see weaknesses in his progressions, and I see weaknesses in his accuracy everywhere besides the deep ball and when he's on the run (where I acknowledge that his mechanics when on a roll out are actually very pretty).

For some reason, those of us in the last paragraph get lumped in with the "haters" more often than not.

EDIT: I also feel that it's important for me to note that I was born and raised a Gator fan...

KontradictioN, can you point to where you or any in the same group have been lumped in with the haters ?

 

[situational_awareness]

Look at what I asked for examples of. None of those fit.
The other poster said detractors say he is the worst QB ever and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
What do comments about his religion, the circus he creates, whether he is a good teammate, etc, have to do with that?
You went and found negative comments, that is not what I said I have seen no examples of.

.................

Posted by Concerned_Citizen
People have always made excuses for Tebow's bad play. Either the offensive line couldn't block, receivers couldn't catch, or the coaches called plays that were too predictable. I think the coaches did an awesome job under the circumstances. Only so much they can do with a QB who can only hit the broad side of a barn once in a while if they let him stand inside it.

Posted by Belichick010405
I am looking forward to the day when Tebow gets cut. That will be toward the end of August when he can't hit the broadside of a barn in game 2 of the pre-season.

 

[Ring 6]

.................

Those are definitely the examples I asked for.
I will say though anyone who is familiar with either of those posters would know they have made numerous whacky comments about many topics.

But I had my afternoon for the year of discussing the Tebow. I'll move on to the players that will matter, and if he is still here, jump in for a day next year.

 

[Ring 6]

We have quite a few players in our depth chart that people dont think are great football players, are they insulted fifty different times a thread regardless of whether the thread was about them? If you dont think it's a personal bias against the kid then you are the most gullible human who ever lived or the most disingenuous. And I say this to anybody that calls themselves a Patriots fan and is actively mocking and rooting against one of our own(a guy that spends more time with cancer kids than most of you spend with your own kids) then you really need to re-evaluate yourselves as members of the human race.

Yes, other players are ripped. Dowling comes to mind. Lloyd is another.
Not sure where you get that I am ripping Tebow.
Not sure where you get that people not liking him causes them to be blind about his skills.
Overall, not a good effort.

 

[Ring 6]

Of course the Pats would have, proof of that is that they used a draft pick on him. The claim was that 31 other teams would have taken him, but we don't know that to be the case.

Of course we do, but go ahead and play dumb.

Yeah, you are conflating the two. I've asked for anyone to link to posts where a Tebow supporter is giving someone crap for posting actual analysis or real criticism.

I have not commented on that at all. Don't know what you mean because I've said nothing about giving crap, Ive said they dismiss with strawman.

You have to look at the statements that were made by the people who have been challenged. If someone says "Tebow can't hit the broad side of a barn" and that he's "Not an NFL QB", that's not valid criticism or analysis. Rather, it's specious BS and yes, I will challenge that.

So. There were people here saying keep Cassell and trade Brady.
There is a guy posting that Hernandez is innocent.
People call Bob Kraft cheap.
Deus Irae thinks he knows more than BB.
Idiotic opinions will be voiced over any topic. Tebow is no different.

Again, you apparently aren't reading what some are saying.

I stand corrected, a few posters who make stupid comments on everything have said so. Doesnt change much in my mind.

5% is much too low a number. If you really want to get into figures, Tebow is at what? 48% comp %? If he got up to 60% he might just be a decent QB. Plenty of QBs have raised their comp % 12 pts over a couple of years. Hell, with his running ability, I'd settle for the high 50's.

So if he goes from about the least accurate to accurate you will be happy?
You act like its easy.

And tangibles without intangibles are useless.

Not true because intangibles are just that, so everyone has a different view of them.

Just ask Ryan Leaf and Todd Marinovich. NFL history is replete with guys who could throw nice passes but couldn't win games or be effective NFL QBs.

But not with ones who can't throw well and win.

I'll go ahead and commit some blasphemy here. Guess what? Geno Smith throws a much prettier ball than Tom Brady. He's got a stronger arm as well. That said, I don't think that Geno Smith will even be 1/10th the QB that Brady is.

Nice one for me to end on, because you just illustrated you know nothing about what makes a QB successful.
Maybe next year...........