Lessons from the Lions 2011 Draft

[patchick]

Looking back at the Patriots road to becoming a top tier NFL team, I don't recall these types of growing pains ... did you guys experience these kind of bumps in the road/issues before Belichick?

The Patriots pretty much WERE "bumps in the road" for years. (Star WR missing the conference championship game after being stabbed by his wife in a fight over infidelity, anybody?)

But there was a huge, huge turning point heading into 2001 when Belichick suspended Terry Glenn -- one of the team's marquee players at the time -- after he had a string of off-field problems then walked out of training camp. Full season suspension, no pay, see ya later. That sent a heck of a strong message.

The fact that the Lions don't seem to be issuing any penalties at all also sends a message, of course.

 

[mayoclinic]

The Patriots pretty much WERE "bumps in the road" for years. (Star WR missing the conference championship game after being stabbed by his wife in a fight over infidelity, anybody?)

But there was a huge, huge turning point heading into 2001 when Belichick suspended Terry Glenn -- one of the team's marquee players at the time -- after he had a string of off-field problems then walked out of training camp. Full season suspension, no pay, see ya later. That sent a heck of a strong message.

The fact that the Lions don't seem to be issuing any penalties at all also sends a message, of course.

The Glenn suspension was indeed a turning points, as Off the Grid mentioned earlier in this thread (post #15). And, as I've already mentioned, BB has shown a repeated tendency to have a low tolerance for anyone who crosses a certain line - Kenyatta Jones was cut 5 days after being arrested for pouring scalding water on his roommate, despite having been a starter the previous season (he was on PUP at the time).

If the Lions want it to stop they need to suspend some guys, or even cut a player. But I doubt they'll do that.

 

[mayoclinic]

Continuing the last post, a major suspension or cutting a guy who has repeated significant issues sends 2 messages:

1. The inmates are not running the asylum.
2. No one is greater than the team.

BB has proven several times over the past decade (2001 and 2011 being the best examples) that 53 guys playing hard on the same page can perform as well or better than a more talented roster with some guys who are distractions or malcontents (Terry Glenn in 2001, Albert Haynesworth in 2011). And 2009 was a good example of how easy it is to disrupt team chemistry and performance. But I doubt Jim Schwartz will take that approach. He tolerated Pacman Jones and Haynesworth at Tennessee.

Talk is cheap. Significant action will get the attention of the rest of the team. Fast. It may not do much for the guy who gets penalized. Terry Glenn's still getting arrested. But the Pats managed to get two 4th round picks for him from Green Bay, and they didn't exactly suffer from his absence.

 

[Off The Grid]

Looking back at the Patriots road to becoming a top tier NFL team, I don't recall these types of growing pains ...

Did you guys experience these kind of bumps in the road/issues before Belichick?

Not really...

Oh.

Well, there was that 1960-1999 40 year horror show, I suppose.

I guess you could say that that was a bit of a...bump in the road.

 

[Off The Grid]

The Glenn suspension was indeed a turning point, as Off the Grid mentioned earlier in this thread (post #15).

Thanks for the Props, Brother Mayo.

Sister Pat owes me a Beer. :snob:

 

[patchick]

Thanks for the Props, Brother Mayo.

Sister Pat owes me a Beer. :snob:

:eat3:

(Full props, I was just providing a recap for our visiting Lions fan who had the good fortune of not being drenched in the Patriots of Zeke Mowatt, Victor Kiam etc.)

 

[Off The Grid]

:eat3:

(Full props, I was just providing a recap for our visiting Lions fan who had the good fortune of not being drenched in the Patriots of Zeke Mowatt, Victor Kiam etc.)

Thanks, Sister!! JUST what I needed!!

Ahhh...The Immortal Zeke Mowatt!! How SURREAL all this success is, after decades of that!!

I've always loved the Lions ~ I like ALL the Cat Teams, but they're my favorites!! ~ and had extremely high hopes for'm, last yearj, and very high expectations...Indeed, they went far further than almost anyone expected, before the year began...But I'm afraid that this Thread is all too appropriate. :nooo:

There is the possibility that they'll right their ship, of course ~ they are young, after all ~ but as our esteemed Guest points out, Coach Schwartz's History strongly suggests otherwise.

 

[captain stone]

Not really...

Oh.

Well, there was that 1960-1999 40 year horror show, I suppose.

I guess you could say that that was a bit of a...bump in the road.

The Pats of the early-late 60s weren't a horrow show, really, until Mike Holovak left.
(And to think that the next hire could've been Chuck Noll...)

As for the Loins, they will never win when it counts as long as that asshat Schwartz is their HC.

 

[SloMotion]

As for the Lions, they will never win when it counts as long as that asshat Schwartz is their HC.

... well, he certainly is no Bill Belichick (and how many HCs are?), but he is my asshat, so he doesn't get thrown under the bus just yet ... as the Lions continue to trend toward lacking discipline & self-control, I eventually will blame the HC if the team doesn't start taking appropriate action to stem this BS, but for now, he's all we got ... <sigh>.

I figured you guys had to work through some of the same stuff and was interested in hearing how a championship team handled it. I appreciate the comments.

 

[mayoclinic]

Pete Schrager thinks that the Lions could be due for a 2012 let-down similar to what Tampa Bay experienced in 2011:

FOX Sports Video - Schrager: Lions be warned

The Bucs had a successful 2010 season similar to what the Lions had in 2011, and entered last year with high expectations. But a rash of off-season issues and a lack of team discipline led to a major disappointment. Greg Schiano seems to have made some progress re-establishing discipline. It will be interesting to see if the Lions have the same kind of let-down, but there certainly seems to be reason for some concern in Motown.

 

[patchick]

... well, he certainly is no Bill Belichick (and how many HCs are?), but he is my asshat, so he doesn't get thrown under the bus just yet ...

I'd also say that he's not the garden-variety asshat -- he's actually a heck of a football coach, IMO. It's as an organizational leader that he gives me pause.

 

[SloMotion]

Pete Schrager thinks that the Lions could be due for a 2012 let-down similar to what Tampa Bay experienced in 2011:

I was not aware of that with the Bucs, but it certainly reinforces what I'm thinking for the Lions next season ... I'm having a hard time picking them to be better then 9-7, finishing ahead of Chicago/Green Bay in the division or going to the playoffs ... it's due to this lack of discipline stuff, subsequent suspensions and they've shown they can't overcome the distractions.

I'd also say that he's not the garden-variety asshat -- he's actually a heck of a football coach, IMO. It's as an organizational leader that he gives me pause.

That's where I'm at with him ... loved him as the DC for the Titans, glad we got him, love his fire & youth ... just wish he'd be a little more 'old-school' when it comes to team discipline and handling the players ... comes with experience, I guess ... I see his frustration with this stuff in local interviews and I'm always saying to the T.V., "Pull the trigger, Jim ... pull the trigger".

 

[mayoclinic]

Meanwhile Aaron Berry gets arrested yet again:

Lions’ Aaron Berry arrested on three counts of simple assault | ProFootballTalk

Doesn't sound like Jim Schwartz's talk about being fed up with the offseason incidents did very much. Talk is cheap. The league could well suspend Berry, but the Lions need to get their own house in order. I suspect BB would have cut him by now.

 

[SloMotion]

Meanwhile Aaron Berry gets arrested yet again:


Doesn't sound like Jim Schwartz's talk about being fed up with the offseason incidents did very much. Talk is cheap. The league could well suspend Berry, but the Lions need to get their own house in order. I suspect BB would have cut him by now.

... and apparently Cory Williams was arrested for DWI last offseason and forget to tell anyone about it until his court appearance last week, ?!?! ... dude, I am LIVID about this stuff and it's embarrassing to me when slappy Lions fans refuse to acknowledge what's going on, try to defend or minimize this type of behavior ... when did the Lions turn into an NBA franchise?!?! :enranged: ... true story ... I was on the list for season tickets next season, but cancelled due to the unprofessional BS that is going on in the organization ... sorry, love the Lions but my fan-dollars aren't going towards supporting that kind of garbage ... aaaggghhh!

 

[mayoclinic]

... and apparently Cory Williams was arrested for DWI last offseason and forget to tell anyone about it until his court appearance last week, ?!?! ... dude, I am LIVID about this stuff and it's embarrassing to me when slappy Lions fans refuse to acknowledge what's going on, try to defend or minimize this type of behavior ... when did the Lions turn into an NBA franchise?!?! :enranged: ... true story ... I was on the list for season tickets next season, but cancelled due to the unprofessional BS that is going on in the organization ... sorry, love the Lions but my fan-dollars aren't going towards supporting that kind of garbage ... aaaggghhh!

Meanwhile the Lions have expressed that they are "deeply disappointed" in Berry's latest incident.

Lions “extremely disappointed” by Aaron Berry arrest | ProFootballTalk

Rumor has it that the team is contemplating putting him in timeout for 5 minutes.

Seriously, it's a shame. The Lions have one of the most talented nuclei of young players in the NFL, and they are letting the kids run wild. It's hard to imagine that kind of response leading to a disciplined team on the field that is able to harness all of that talent. But the team has no one but themselves to blame if they are too gutless to enforce some serious discipline.

 

[SloMotion]

Meanwhile the Lions have expressed that they are "deeply disappointed" in Berry's latest incident.


Rumor has it that the team is contemplating putting him in timeout for 5 minutes.

Seriously, it's a shame. The Lions have one of the most talented nuclei of young players in the NFL, and they are letting the kids run wild. It's hard to imagine that kind of response leading to a disciplined team on the field that is able to harness all of that talent. But the team has no one but themselves to blame if they are too gutless to enforce some serious discipline.

"Deeply disappointed", my honolulu blue & silver ass! It's time to start cutting people that aren't getting the message ... this guy's a marginal DB at best too, what's with the 'bad-boy-superstar' behavior?

I sadly have to agree with you the end result will be potential unrealized and it's killing me they're not addressing this kind of stuff ... I'm getting some of those rubber wristbands customed-made and sending them to the coaching staff with "WWBBD" on 'em ... (what would Bill Belichik do).

I'm disappointed in my boys ... :steamed:

 

[ctpatsfan77]

"Deeply disappointed", my honolulu blue & silver ass! It's time to start cutting people that aren't getting the message ... this guy's a marginal DB at best too, what's with the 'bad-boy-superstar' behavior?

I sadly have to agree with you the end result will be potential unrealized and it's killing me they're not addressing this kind of stuff ... I'm getting some of those rubber wristbands customed-made and sending them to the coaching staff with "WWBBD" on 'em ... (what would Bill Belichik do).

I'm disappointed in my boys ... :steamed:

SloMotion: those of us who remember the pre-Belichick era of the Patriots understand your pain. :itsok:

 

[patfanken]

I think the Pats have certain inviolate rules that the follow when it comes to "character" issues.

1. Don't take one in the first round, after that anything goes.

2. If the coaches and the locker room can't solve the problem, then don't waste anytime in getting rid of the player.

3. You can and SHOULD take character risks, just not too many of them

The Terry Glenn example was perhaps the most important one. This was before BB became a genius. It was after a 5-11 season, and at a time when Glenn was by are the best offensive threat on a poor offense. It was simply BB making a statement to the entire team, and it was a message that has resonated in every BB locker room since that time. NO ONE is bigger than the team and its staff.

Its one of the things I love about BB. He's not afraid to admit to his mistakes. Glenn, Jackson, Haynesworth, Thomas, Moss, were all talented guys who crossed "that line" and were gone....just gone. (BTW-Thomas wasn't a problem until 2009 when he become unhappy with the way he was being used within the Pats defense. His 2007 and 08 seasons were pretty productive. And I didn't include Merriweather because I think his problem was his inability to accept coaching than a bad attitude.)

But beyond BB's own power to affect the locker room, the major reason for it being so strong is that the team's best players all buy into the same concept. Brady. Mayo, Chung, etc all epitomize the "Patriot Way" of doing things.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think the Pats have certain inviolate rules that the follow when it comes to "character" issues.

1. Don't take one in the first round, after that anything goes.

2. If the coaches and the locker room can't solve the problem, then don't waste anytime in getting rid of the player.

3. You can and SHOULD take character risks, just not too many of them

The Terry Glenn example was perhaps the most important one. This was before BB became a genius. It was after a 5-11 season, and at a time when Glenn was by are the best offensive threat on a poor offense. It was simply BB making a statement to the entire team, and it was a message that has resonated in every BB locker room since that time. NO ONE is bigger than the team and its staff.

Its one of the things I love about BB. He's not afraid to admit to his mistakes. Glenn, Jackson, Haynesworth, Thomas, Moss, were all talented guys who crossed "that line" and were gone....just gone. (BTW-Thomas wasn't a problem until 2009 when he become unhappy with the way he was being used within the Pats defense. His 2007 and 08 seasons were pretty productive. And I didn't include Merriweather because I think his problem was his inability to accept coaching than a bad attitude.)

But beyond BB's own power to affect the locker room, the major reason for it being so strong is that the team's best players all buy into the same concept. Brady. Mayo, Chung, etc all epitomize the "Patriot Way" of doing things.

Good points.

The biggest fallacy that most teams have is that they are afraid to cut "talented" players who are repeat offenders or major distractions, and so they perpetuate a culture in which players are out of control. Most don't have the guts to pull the plug on a player who is becoming a problem, and if you get too many of them it becomes pervasive to the culture of the locker room. BB didn't have the job security he currently enjoys when he pulled the plug on guys like Terry Glenn, or even Kenyatta Jones. But it sends a clear message about who is in charge and what will be tolerated, and guys realize that they don't have a free license to run wild and collect a big paycheck. That sets the tone for other guys, and as you build a critical mass of veteran locker room leadership it becomes more possible to take a few select risks here and there.

The Lions clearly have too many players who are unable to stay out of trouble, and who know that all they'll suffer from the team is a tongue lashing and the need to apologize. Goodell may suspend them a few games, but until the team shows that it is serious that behavior will go on, and will have an impact on other players as well.

Ideally, it goes beyond just getting in trouble. Guys who don't get with the program and who don't go all out also create a drain on the team. Greg Schiano has been fighting a culture of accepting mediocrity and half-effort established by Raheem Morris and others. The LeGarrette Blount situation is a good example:

According to Rick Stroud of the Tampa Bay Times, Blount racked up $15,000 in fines for tardiness in his first two weeks in Tampa, prompting general manager Mark Dominik and former head coach Raheem Morris to force the rookie to hire a car service to wake him up and transport him for the three miles to One Buc Place. Stroud adds that Blount continued to rely upon the car service in 2011, but he occasionally caught up on his sleep in meeting rooms.

LeGarrette Blount's Buccaneers roster spot uncertain - NFL.com

Cut a few of those guys or dump them off on other clubs and move on, and the remaining players will know that that kind of behavior won't be tolerated. Let it go, and it sends a different kind of message. The Lions' leadership has no one to blame but themselves for their current mess.

 

[mayoclinic]

Finally ...

Aaron Berry released by Detroit Lions after arrest, reports say - NFL.com

Now if the Lions can just be consistent and make it clear that any further infractions by Titus Young, Nick Fairley and Mikel Leshoure will also have serious consequences, they may get somewhere.