Do you wish the Patriots challenged Goodell (like the Saints are doing)?

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

I hope I'm not triggering a digression, but you can't always have it the way you want....

The tuck rule that clearly went in our favor was definitely called based on the letter of the law and not the intent.

I don't have a problem with the Pats getting punished; I just think that the punishment went a bit far. Now if the tuck rule left the outcome to the ref's discretion and they chose to award 2 TDs and 1 FG to the Pats, then these two situations would be a bit more comparable.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Hello, Saints fan here. Saw this thread linked on a Saints forum and decided to join in the fray.

To answer the topic's question:
I didn't think the Patriots should have challenged Goddell then, and I still think that way. Why? If I remember correctly, the Patriots (or was it Belichick who was fined, but Mr Kraft/the team paid for it?) were fined $250,000 and a #1 pick taken away of the 2 #1's they had that year. In NFL terms, $250,000 is nothing, and taking a #1 pick from an already elite team, when they have 2 #1's, well, not what you'd consider "harsh" punishment. Pay the money, kiss the pick good bye, move on. Case closed.

Matter of fact, the impression I think most fans had was that the Patriots were given preferential treatment and got away with a slap on the wrist.

As for the "taint", the bad reputation, the "cheaters" label, that's all ridiculous. True fans of football know that no matter how much tape you have, how many signals you have "intercepted", you still have to go on the field and make the plays. Everyone knew the Lombardi Packers were going to run the sweep every other play. No one could stop it. Just like everyone knew Brady was going to toss it up deep for Moss, but couldn't stop it either.

The Saints case in a whole lot different, though. This whole "bountygate" mess has many ramifications outside the football field. One is, obviously, the ex-player lawsuits; but the other aspect which you don't really hear anything about, is the US Gov't. Congress has been all over the NFL for a while regarding player safety because of the ex-players allegations. I think it was 2007 or 2008 when Goddell had to go in front of a Congressional hearing regarding player's health after so many allegations by ex-players surfaced. I think a lot of the NFL's "show of force" has to do more with a horse and pony show for Congress than any actual care they could have for player safety. Why the show? Fear of anything coming between the NFL and their Antitrust Exemption.

Unlike "spygate", which was swiftly dealt with and put away by all parties involved, Goddell has dragged "bountygate" all over the place for months, playing the concerned commissioner in the media, throwing the word "bounty" around and referring to all of this "evidence" and how clear it is, but no one has actually seen the "clear evidence": we've seen a whole lot of what the NFL calls "transcribed evidence", sure, but not the real deal.

And unlike "spygate", the Saints lost their HC for at least a season (do you know, Payton still has to apply for re-instatement, that's why he's not saying anything and for all means and purposes has gone into hiding), an Assistant Coach (Joe Vitt) for 6 games,their GM for half the season, and just aboout ended Jonathan Vilma's career, over allegations by disgruntled employees and semantics. I don't know how much you have followed this mess, but the NFL has gone from "pay-to-injure" all the way down to "plays in which legal hits caused injury to a player" as quoted here

And just so it is clear: yes, the Saints did run an "office pool", in which players got money for making plays, but also, one in which players who blew plays had to put money in. And yes, the dollar amounts were usually around $1,000, which, for an NFL player, is nothing more than you putting $5 or $10 on the office pool, and you bragging about it when you win it.

Sorry for the wall of text

As PWP suggested to another poster, know your topic before opining.

Belichick was fined $500K or more than 2 games worth of salary and he had to pay that out of his own pocket. The organization was fined $250K and docked their first round draft pick. Belichick ignored a generic memo sent by one of Goodell's VP's to every team prior to the commencement of that season. He took full responsibility and accountability for what transpired. Kraft didn't have any knowledge of the activity, so in my opinion the organization was over penalized. That happened for two reasons, to send a message to the entire league and because it could (because we had two firsts). Benson was made aware of the problem for almost 3 years and he got off easy based on his testimony that he ordered his GM and HC who were also questioned and denied any such program existed to make sure if it had it was stopped and did not exist going forward. They didn't do that. That is why they were suspended, as was Asst. HC Vitt who also knew what was being done was illegal and under investigation and who was tasked with keeping tabs on the DC, Williams' activities. They allowed the program to continue as it had since 2009 and obstructed any investigation that transpired by both lying outright and/or witholding information and encouraging players to toe the denial line back in 2009.

The cover up is always worse than the crime, and that is what coaches and select players in NO are being dealt with harshly and totally deservedly for. In NE nobody covered anything up, what was done was done in plain sight and acknowledged from the get go. All material including what was gathered legally over several previous seasons was turned over to the league and documents were signed stipulating that no additional violations had occured nor did any additional tape exist. Had they found the imaginary walk through video Bill would have been hammered. But turns out that rumored tape was never more than a wishful thinking figment of the media's immagination. In NO when Benson allowed the league to do a forensic examimation of the computer system in 2012, additional evidence/documentation of the existence of the bounty program from 2009-2011 was uncovered.

IMO 8 games for Payton and Loomis, 4 games for Vitt and Vilma and 1-2 games for the remaining players (one already had a suspension on his record I believe) would have sufficed. IF they had all come clean. And maybe Goodell - who is a carrot and stick disciplinarian - would have gone that route had not the coaches continued to play games (including appealing just to buy time to strategize around their suspensions) and the players not refused to participate in their own appeal, choosing instead to attack the policy their union had chosen not to negotiate any change to just 10 months earlier.

And the Saints didn't run an office pool. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Player run pay for play programs might equate to that, although those are illegal in the NFL. Coaches and players ran this program in unison and it clearly incorporated a bounty component. Whether that ever resulted in actual injury legally or illegally or collection of bounties is immaterial. This is what NO fans can't seem to grasp. That and the fact that Goodell is changing a culture and not just one that permeates the player ranks. He's sending a message to anyone arrogant enough to persist in believing they are above the game and the league.

 

[Reckedtrek]

I find it amazing how many Pats fans seem to enjoy debating this still, from a purely psychological and sociological standpoint.

My answer to the OP is No. The Pats pushed the rule to the point where it was determined by Goodell that it was over the line. Whether you feel they did or not is irrelevant. He makes the final decision either way and having your players complain and cry about it just gives other teams fans more enjoyment over it.

The Pats were one deflected pass of a hail Mary and ensuing "helmet catch" away from winning it all that year, and that was with all of the scrutiny and the Matt Walsh BS, and all the other crap that year.

Let's see how the Saint's do this season and I'll give you my final answer then!

 

[lurker1965]

As PWP suggested to another poster, know your topic before opining.

Belichick was fined $500K or more than 2 games worth of salary and he had to pay that out of his own pocket. The organization was fined $250K and docked their first round draft pick. Belichick ignored a generic memo sent by one of Goodell's VP's to every team prior to the commencement of that season. He took full responsibility and accountability for what transpired. Kraft didn't have any knowledge of the activity, so in my opinion the organization was over penalized. That happened for two reasons, to send a message to the entire league and because it could (because we had two firsts). Benson was made aware of the problem for almost 3 years and he got off easy based on his testimony that he ordered his GM and HC who were also questioned and denied any such program existed to make sure if it had it was stopped and did not exist going forward. They didn't do that. That is why they were suspended, as was Asst. HC Vitt who also knew what was being done was illegal and under investigation and who was tasked with keeping tabs on the DC, Williams' activities. They allowed the program to continue as it had since 2009 and obstructed any investigation that transpired by both lying outright and/or witholding information and encouraging players to toe the denial line back in 2009.

The cover up is always worse than the crime, and that is what coaches and select players in NO are being dealt with harshly and totally deservedly for. In NE nobody covered anything up, what was done was done in plain sight and acknowledged from the get go. All material including what was gathered legally over several previous seasons was turned over to the league and documents were signed stipulating that no additional violations had occured nor did any additional tape exist. Had they found the imaginary walk through video Bill would have been hammered. But turns out that rumored tape was never more than a wishful thinking figment of the media's immagination. In NO when Benson allowed the league to do a forensic examimation of the computer system in 2012, additional evidence/documentation of the existence of the bounty program from 2009-2011 was uncovered.

IMO 8 games for Payton and Loomis, 4 games for Vitt and Vilma and 1-2 games for the remaining players (one already had a suspension on his record I believe) would have sufficed. IF they had all come clean. And maybe Goodell - who is a carrot and stick disciplinarian - would have gone that route had not the coaches continued to play games (including appealing just to buy time to strategize around their suspensions) and the players not refused to participate in their own appeal, choosing instead to attack the policy their union had chosen not to negotiate any change to just 10 months earlier.

And the Saints didn't run an office pool. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Player run pay for play programs might equate to that, although those are illegal in the NFL. Coaches and players ran this program in unison and it clearly incorporated a bounty component. Whether that ever resulted in actual injury legally or illegally or collection of bounties is immaterial. This is what NO fans can't seem to grasp. That and the fact that Goodell is changing a culture and not just one that permeates the player ranks. He's sending a message to anyone arrogant enough to persist in believing they are above the game and the league.

I agree with your analysis of the Saints thing with one caveat. I want to see hard proof. (Possibly because I do NOT trust Goodell, but I digress.) Yes, that could be a sworn affidavit from Mike Williams saying "We did it and Vilma contributed."

I personally won't even question it if Vilma is told of his re-instatement right afterwards. (Well, I question it, but not QUESTION it. You know what I mean. Water under the bridge, movin' on.)

 

[Tobias Reiper]

As PWP suggested to another poster, know your topic before opining.

Belichick was fined $500K or more than 2 games worth of salary and he had to pay that out of his own pocket. The organization was fined $250K and docked their first round draft pick. Belichick ignored a generic memo sent by one of Goodell's VP's to every team prior to the commencement of that season. He took full responsibility and accountability for what transpired. Kraft didn't have any knowledge of the activity, so in my opinion the organization was over penalized. That happened for two reasons, to send a message to the entire league and because it could (because we had two firsts). Benson was made aware of the problem for almost 3 years and he got off easy based on his testimony that he ordered his GM and HC who were also questioned and denied any such program existed to make sure if it had it was stopped and did not exist going forward. They didn't do that. That is why they were suspended, as was Asst. HC Vitt who also knew what was being done was illegal and under investigation and who was tasked with keeping tabs on the DC, Williams' activities. They allowed the program to continue as it had since 2009 and obstructed any investigation that transpired by both lying outright and/or witholding information and encouraging players to toe the denial line back in 2009.

The cover up is always worse than the crime, and that is what coaches and select players in NO are being dealt with harshly and totally deservedly for. In NE nobody covered anything up, what was done was done in plain sight and acknowledged from the get go. All material including what was gathered legally over several previous seasons was turned over to the league and documents were signed stipulating that no additional violations had occured nor did any additional tape exist. Had they found the imaginary walk through video Bill would have been hammered. But turns out that rumored tape was never more than a wishful thinking figment of the media's immagination. In NO when Benson allowed the league to do a forensic examimation of the computer system in 2012, additional evidence/documentation of the existence of the bounty program from 2009-2011 was uncovered.

IMO 8 games for Payton and Loomis, 4 games for Vitt and Vilma and 1-2 games for the remaining players (one already had a suspension on his record I believe) would have sufficed. IF they had all come clean. And maybe Goodell - who is a carrot and stick disciplinarian - would have gone that route had not the coaches continued to play games (including appealing just to buy time to strategize around their suspensions) and the players not refused to participate in their own appeal, choosing instead to attack the policy their union had chosen not to negotiate any change to just 10 months earlier.

And the Saints didn't run an office pool. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Player run pay for play programs might equate to that, although those are illegal in the NFL. Coaches and players ran this program in unison and it clearly incorporated a bounty component. Whether that ever resulted in actual injury legally or illegally or collection of bounties is immaterial. This is what NO fans can't seem to grasp. That and the fact that Goodell is changing a culture and not just one that permeates the player ranks. He's sending a message to anyone arrogant enough to persist in believing they are above the game and the league.

Hold on a second there.

For one, what I posted about the Patriots fines was going off memory (as the question in parenthesis in my original post demonstrates). I am not a fan of the Patriots, so pardon me for not remembering the exact details of "spygate".

Second, heed your own advice. You are just regurgitating statements the NFL has put out there through the media about the Saints situation.

 

[lurker1965]

Hello, Saints fan here. Saw this thread linked on a Saints forum and decided to join in the fray.

To answer the topic's question:
I didn't think the Patriots should have challenged Goddell then, and I still think that way. Why? If I remember correctly, the Patriots (or was it Belichick who was fined, but Mr Kraft/the team paid for it?) were fined $250,000 and a #1 pick taken away of the 2 #1's they had that year. In NFL terms, $250,000 is nothing, and taking a #1 pick from an already elite team, when they have 2 #1's, well, not what you'd consider "harsh" punishment. Pay the money, kiss the pick good bye, move on. Case closed.

Matter of fact, the impression I think most fans had was that the Patriots were given preferential treatment and got away with a slap on the wrist.

As for the "taint", the bad reputation, the "cheaters" label, that's all ridiculous. True fans of football know that no matter how much tape you have, how many signals you have "intercepted", you still have to go on the field and make the plays. Everyone knew the Lombardi Packers were going to run the sweep every other play. No one could stop it. Just like everyone knew Brady was going to toss it up deep for Moss, but couldn't stop it either.

The Saints case in a whole lot different, though. This whole "bountygate" mess has many ramifications outside the football field. One is, obviously, the ex-player lawsuits; but the other aspect which you don't really hear anything about, is the US Gov't. Congress has been all over the NFL for a while regarding player safety because of the ex-players allegations. I think it was 2007 or 2008 when Goddell had to go in front of a Congressional hearing regarding player's health after so many allegations by ex-players surfaced. I think a lot of the NFL's "show of force" has to do more with a horse and pony show for Congress than any actual care they could have for player safety. Why the show? Fear of anything coming between the NFL and their Antitrust Exemption.

Unlike "spygate", which was swiftly dealt with and put away by all parties involved, Goddell has dragged "bountygate" all over the place for months, playing the concerned commissioner in the media, throwing the word "bounty" around and referring to all of this "evidence" and how clear it is, but no one has actually seen the "clear evidence": we've seen a whole lot of what the NFL calls "transcribed evidence", sure, but not the real deal....

You want cameragate links?
Unlike MoLewis, I won't insult you. You are learning the hard way that Goodell is media driven. (If E!SPN* ignored the initial pronouncement made on a FRIDAY AFTERNOON and the story died, he would not have postured himself as the TOUGH COMMISIONER.)

You only know what E!SPN has told you. I assume you can learn.

BTW, Goodell is not dragging this out. The people making all the appeals are the Saints players. Goodell would like them to shut up and get this out of the news.

*Not a typo. E! is the entertainment network. I'm purposefully insulting the Mickey Mouse network. (E!SPN is owned by Disney.)

 

[PatsFanSince74]

As PWP suggested to another poster, know your topic before opining.

Belichick was fined $500K or more than 2 games worth of salary and he had to pay that out of his own pocket. The organization was fined $250K and docked their first round draft pick.
Belichick ignored a generic memo sent by one of Goodell's VP's to every team prior to the commencement of that season. He took full responsibility and accountability for what transpired. Kraft didn't have any knowledge of the activity, so in my opinion the organization was over penalized. That happened for two reasons, to send a message to the entire league and because it could (because we had two firsts). Benson was made aware of the problem for almost 3 years and he got off easy based on his testimony that he ordered his GM and HC who were also questioned and denied any such program existed to make sure if it had it was stopped and did not exist going forward. They didn't do that. That is why they were suspended, as was Asst. HC Vitt who also knew what was being done was illegal and under investigation and who was tasked with keeping tabs on the DC, Williams' activities. They allowed the program to continue as it had since 2009 and obstructed any investigation that transpired by both lying outright and/or witholding information and encouraging players to toe the denial line back in 2009.

The cover up is always worse than the crime, and that is what coaches and select players in NO are being dealt with harshly and totally deservedly for. In NE nobody covered anything up, what was done was done in plain sight and acknowledged from the get go. All material including what was gathered legally over several previous seasons was turned over to the league and documents were signed stipulating that no additional violations had occured nor did any additional tape exist. Had they found the imaginary walk through video Bill would have been hammered. But turns out that rumored tape was never more than a wishful thinking figment of the media's immagination. In NO when Benson allowed the league to do a forensic examimation of the computer system in 2012, additional evidence/documentation of the existence of the bounty program from 2009-2011 was uncovered.

IMO 8 games for Payton and Loomis, 4 games for Vitt and Vilma and 1-2 games for the remaining players (one already had a suspension on his record I believe) would have sufficed. IF they had all come clean. And maybe Goodell - who is a carrot and stick disciplinarian - would have gone that route had not the coaches continued to play games (including appealing just to buy time to strategize around their suspensions) and the players not refused to participate in their own appeal, choosing instead to attack the policy their union had chosen not to negotiate any change to just 10 months earlier.

And the Saints didn't run an office pool. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Player run pay for play programs might equate to that, although those are illegal in the NFL. Coaches and players ran this program in unison and it clearly incorporated a bounty component. Whether that ever resulted in actual injury legally or illegally or collection of bounties is immaterial. This is what NO fans can't seem to grasp. That and the fact that Goodell is changing a culture and not just one that permeates the player ranks. He's sending a message to anyone arrogant enough to persist in believing they are above the game and the league.

I'm glad that you have the energy to write a post like that since I just punted recently in reply to someone else because I didn't. Thanks.

Coach Belichick did do "something wrong." He was rightly penalized but no doubt overly so because the process was as much a "political" process as a process of "justice."

Goodell had half the country up his butt in the person of the mediots, other teams and most fans outside New England, who still see a grand conspiracy on Goodell's part to "cover up" even more (of course un-described) nefarious deeds by the Pats.

Goodell wanted to send a message early in his tenure; the Pats were in the line of fire; they got shot. Fog of war? Fair? Unfair? Doesn't really matter nearly five years later.

I'd probably quibble and say that Coach's attempt to say he "misunderstood" the memo was a little lame, but it doesn't change the core facts or the validity of your arguments.

As for the Saints' situation. I think you've got it right, but I'll admit I'm not as familiar with the details.

Thanks, Mo. We disagree from time to time, but you're usually right about most of the important stuff.

 

[lurker1965]

I'm glad that you have the energy to write a post like that because I just punted recently in reply to someone else because I didn't. Thanks.

Coach Belichick did "something wrong." He was rightly penalized but probably overly so because the process was as much a political process as a process of "justice."

Goodell wanted to send a message early in his tenure; the Pats were in the line of fire; they got shot. Fog of war? Fair? Unfair? Doesn't really matter nearly five years later.

I'd probably quibble and say that Coach's attempt to say he "misunderstood" the memo was a little lame, but it doesn't change the core facts or the validity of your arguments.

As for the Saints' situation. I think you've got it right, but I'll admit I'm not as familiar with the details.

Thanks, Mo. We disagree from time to time, but you're usually right about most of the important stuff.

The Saints fan has an excuse. You do not.

The memo was sent to all 32 teams. Think about that as I give you a good analogy.

Where I worked (I'm retired) the HR dept. had to yearly remind us us of several policies, from anti-discrimination to sexual harassment. If I got a memo from HR, I'd look at other desks and see if they got the memo.

I assumed I understood the sexual harassment policy. If they sent out a general memo to everyone because I was telling women they need to dress more provocatively, I would have "misinterpreted" the memo and thrown it out.

Do I need to draw parallels for you? Maybe another reader. The sexual harassment policy is the filming rule, the other desks are the other 31 teams getting the memo.

Now, asshat, say 100 hail Brady's.

 

[Bill B.]

I don't understand the argument of "Goodell destroyed the tapes. We don't know what else is on the tapes." It's a football game. What the hell else could be on the tapes that could be incriminating? Other than coaches signals what could you be looking for that would be so bad that all the conspiracy theorist have come out of the woodwork. Is it the lone gunman in the grassy knoll? Is it too many close-ups of the opposing teams cheerleaders? What could poosibly be on the tapes that would be so bad?

The Patriots never denied taping opposing coaches signals. They felt that according to the NFL rulebook, they could tape anything as long as it wasn't used in any games. There is no proof that they used them in the same game. Goodell tried to change a rule through a memo. Only the competition committee can change rules. If this was brought before an independent arbitrator it would have been thrown out.

I also feel that it was a personal thing between Belichick and Goodell. Goodell expected Belichick to go in front of the media and apologize. Belichick apologized through a letter which ticked off Goodell. Goodell even admitted it. If you know Belichick, he would have been humiliated if he went in front of the media and apologized. They would have been all over him. That's what Goodell wanted.

 

[Bill B.]

I hope I'm not triggering a digression, but you can't always have it the way you want....

The tuck rule that clearly went in our favor was definitely called based on the letter of the law and not the intent.

When it was called in favor of the Jets against the Patriots earlier that season, was it the letter of the law or the intent? If these things are called correctly then they even out.

 

[pherein]

As PWP suggested to another poster, know your topic before opining.

You really should listen to your own advice.

Benson was made aware of the problem for almost 3 years and he got off easy based on his testimony that he ordered his GM and HC who were also questioned and denied any such program existed to make sure if it had it was stopped and did not exist going forward. They didn't do that.

""According to the NFL investigation of the Saints, Benson was not initially aware of the bounty program and directed Loomis to make sure it was discontinued immediately. The evidence showed Loomis did not do so, investigators found.""

""NFL's report, team owner Tom Benson told General Manager Mickey Loomis that if a pay-for-performance program was in place he needed to end it, only to see the program continue to operate, the league's website said.""

A year later, when the NFL says it made Saints owner Tom Benson aware of PFP. Not in 2009, not for 3 years, not even for 2 years, it was late 2010. No one was told and knew anything for 3 years. Your kind of sensationalizing it to make a point and linking this to a PFI that the NFL can't find evidence to back up existed.

Bensen had no idea, and thought it was done, when he said to make sure we are not doing a PFP anymore.

Payton "was not a direct participant in the funding or administration of the program," according to the investigation.
Saints general manager Mickey Loomis did not know about a PFP, but promised to stop it 2 times, according to the NFL.
And the NFL reports have been VERY creditable threw this entire thing. I am forced not to trust a word or evidence they put out anymore. You look at the list of false evidence, witnesses, and statements, and you really have to be kind of slow witted to keep believing anything coming from Goodell or the NFL at this time. A multi-billion dollar corp doesn't mess up evidence that badly unless their incompetent or doing it on purpose.

That is why they were suspended, as was Asst. HC Vitt who also knew what was being done was illegal and under investigation and who was tasked with keeping tabs on the DC, Williams' activities.

And who told Vitt to watch GW? SP did, the same guy who knew everything that was going on, orchestrated and was fine with pay to injure in your mind. Not sure how that makes sense.

'''Saints coach Sean Payton, meanwhile, is said to have not directly participated in it. He did, however, fail to stop it by instructing his assistant coaches and players that the program was against league rules.'''

SP never lied, or ever said he lied or even implied he lied. He is punished for the above. Even though he told Vitt to spy GW, and feed him information. Your projecting the NFL saying "The Saints lied to us" to individuals with no grounds or evidence to do so. If Im wrong about this, tell me exactly when SP lied to Goodell? When did Loomis lie?

Or did loomis talk to GW " Who has a F@ clause" and SP. SP tells Vitt to spy on GW because he and loomis are suspicious GW hasn't stopped the PFP. Vitt never tells SP what GW is doing. Vitt is the LB coach.

See what I did there… its call speculation … means nothing but sounds really neat.

How can you create all of this when even Fujita, who has seen everything says "I'm convinced the league doesn't really have sh@t on anybody"…

You did read the evidence presented by the NFL, right ?
You did read that fujita and Brees , were shown and on board with the the release of the GW 49ers locker room audio tape, I hope. That means the Saints knew and where ok with it, because it showed what GW was like.
Brees could of said no, and you never would have heard it.
.. and for some reason fans speculate Brees knew about everything..kind of silly

Facts are facts, and NE is called bilicheats because of speculation by media and fans. Any fan that looks at NE's situation without speculation and logically would not say those names. Its an ignorant opinion.
Anyone applying the same rules to the saints situation can only say the Saints are guilt of a PFP on defense after mid 2010 when they were told to stop. The rest is speculation, denied by the entire Saints organization, and their is no evidence on it.

They allowed the program to continue as it had since 2009 and obstructed any investigation that transpired by both lying outright and/or witholding information and encouraging players to toe the denial line back in 2009.

How did NO obstruct the Investigation exactly?
All the Info the NFL has was handed to them by the Saints, willingly. You think no one knows how to delete emails ? The NFL did not find any deleted data. At no point did anyone withhold any evidence. When did that happen ?

..and the 50,000.. oh wait…20,000… wait…18,000…no thats not right ..5,000…oops thats wrong.. 200 pages of documents the coaches knew about. You make is sound like some expert forensic team of the NFL raided the Dome and found secret data linking the saints after a rather hefty gun battle,lol. Sounds like a nice Robert Ludlum novel. Not at all what happen though.

“In the two trips to New York I made sure to do everything in my power to answer the questions honestly,” Payton said.
That sound like someone not cooperating.

'“I did talk to him and he’s stunned to say the least,” Glazer said. “I think the entire team thought maybe there’d be a four-game suspension, but not a year. I said, ‘Are you OK?’ And Payton said, ‘No, I’m not OK.’
That sound like someone that lied and agrees with Goodell. Exactly what recourse does Payton have ? Their is none, and as Brees has said most of the coaches are afraid to talk. I think Vitt is just nuts,lol . Maybe its the vicodin talking.

In NO when Benson allowed the league to do a forensic examimation of the computer system in 2012, additional evidence/documentation of the existence of the bounty program from 2009-2011 was uncovered.

First you believe the Saints are obstructing, and now you say they are not?

''“You have taken words that Gregg Williams used, colorful words like cart-offs and wax and [kill the head] and have chosen publicly to distort the meaning of those words notwithstanding the fact that Mr. Williams and others ha told you that those terms in no way relate to illegal hits or any bounty program that you have decided, sir, to misrepresent what those words, in fact, mean,” Ginsberg said.
Ginsberg also cites “substantial evidence” that Williams and former Saints assistant (and suspected whistleblower) Mike Cerullo “retracted directly and affirmatively and without equivocation any claims they have previously made about a bounty program,” explaining that the league has not disclosed those retractions.""

There is no evidence of a PTI or Bounty at NO. Some still don't seem to get that. Its weird when I think their are way more objective fans in NO than some fans,lol.
The only thing supporting your claim is what Goodell and the NFL say….nothing else…their isn't a piece of paper or an admission of guit, no gun, nothing.
Saints had a illegal PFP and made bets, and I can't even prove the bets part. No, one lied to anyone. Goodell thought they lied because he thinks theres a PFI in NO.
Im sure he still does.
The only conjecture I would make about this case is that GW is a complete jerk tool, and probably lied to everyone about a lot of things, knowing he was getting canned. He was probably desperate to win that 49ers game. According to his contract he didn't even have to tell Benson what he was doing.

the players not refused to participate in their own appeal, choosing instead to attack the policy their union had chosen not to negotiate any change to just 10 months earlier.

Players were told by the NFLPA not to interview with the NFL. Some like Fujita didn't listen.
No Coach refused an interview, which refutes your claim that the penalties would have been somehow reduced.

And the Saints didn't run an office pool. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Player run pay for play programs might equate to that, although those are illegal in the NFL. Coaches and players ran this program in unison and it clearly incorporated a bounty component.
Whether that ever resulted in actual injury legally or illegally or collection of bounties is immaterial. This is what NO fans can't seem to grasp.

There was no PTI at NO. Your just not getting that. Every Player and Coach says that. Nor have you or the NFL proved there ever was. You seem to not get how many false claims of evidence the NFL has released. Im not sure why you don't even factor that Goodell has release dozens of false claims against the players and coaches of the Saints, that have later been proved, yes actually proved to be false.
Yet you tow the NFL line. How many more false claims or evidence with it take for other fans to look at this objectively ?

Vilma files new lawsuit today. I think he's probably serious.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...nfl-in-bounty-case?module=HP11_headline_stack

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2012/07/new_orleans_saints_linebacker_35.html

I hate this subject,lol

Im not sure what was the best course of action for NE was. I wish they had fought, because I believed what most other fans did, and was told by the NFL, until I spent time to research it, but that seems senseless also. The situations are different. I guess I just wish an example wasn't made of NE. The complete truth came out, and the NFL worked together to fix the problem, like adults. Instead of creating a Evil Empire that never really existed.

Im not really into who Romo is dating, that Brees had a baby, BB new boat. Don't care that Plex shot himself in the foot, or any of the scandals. I want real football reporting.

 

[Tobias Reiper]

You want cameragate links?
Unlike MoLewis, I won't insult you. You are learning the hard way that Goodell is media driven. (If E!SPN* ignored the initial pronouncement made on a FRIDAY AFTERNOON and the story died, he would not have postured himself as the TOUGH COMMISIONER.)

You only know what E!SPN has told you. I assume you can learn.

BTW, Goodell is not dragging this out. The people making all the appeals are the Saints players. Goodell would like them to shut up and get this out of the news.

*Not a typo. E! is the entertainment network. I'm purposefully insulting the Mickey Mouse network. (E!SPN is owned by Disney.)

I am not learning anything I didn't know before about Goddell. And it is Goddell who dragged this out. It was Goddell who in March declared he had "conclusive evidence" of a paid to injure bounty system, suspended coaches (they don't have an union), but instead of just showing this "conclusive evidence", his office decided to "leak" bits and pieces to the media here and there, even going as far as having to "re-leak" information because the first leak didn't make sense (alleged "ledger entry" about the Buffalo game)... then, after 2 months, the NFL presents "transcribed" evidence.

Oh, and I did get the E! thing

 

[Ron Sellers]

Slightly (but not entirely) off topic: the NFLPA completely blew it when they failed to reign in Goodell's powers when they had a chance to do so during negotiations of the last CBA. It is not as if there had been zero discussion of him possibly having too much power, or how an appeal of a decision goes right back to him, or inconsistencies with his decision making in regards to punishments to players.

Of course this is something that Vilma, Brees and others don't want to bring up, or answer why they agreed to the CBA without a discussion of the appeal process. Doing so would mean that they would have to admit that they have nobody to blame but themselves for the way the current system (including the bountygate decisions) works.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Yes.

Kraft and Belichick (with, I think, the nudging from Kraft) agreed to take a hit so the NFL/Goodell could perpetuate the perception that signal filming and analysis is not a common practice.

We all know it is a common practice - and we all know that the Patriots true "crime" was simply not adhering to a 2006 rule in 2007

It seems like fans from other teams are unable or unwilling to understand reality and prefer to stick their heads in the sand when it comes to the fact of this matter.

From that standpoint I wish the Patriots had pushed back harder to place the facts of the case - and the long history of signal filming in the NFL - on the record.

The added truth here is that Goodell can't stand it when a coach like Belichick goes for the letter of the law - i.e. no use of sideline tape on gameday - and winds up mocking him.

THAT'S the true reason why Goodell handed down such large fines and penalties (that and to perpetuate an erroneous perception that signal filming is not tolerated by the NFL.)

The first rule of the NFL is don't embarrass Roger Goodell - the second rule of the NFL is don't embarrass Roger Goodell.

I would not mind one bit if the owners - despite their new contract offering to him - decide to part ways sooner rather than later. After all - without his injury reporting policy penalizing coaches like Belichick that put player safety (and strategy) ahead of gambling interests, Bounty-gate never happens.

 

[lurker1965]

I am not learning anything I didn't know before about Goddell. And it is Goddell who dragged this out. It was Goddell who in March declared he had "conclusive evidence" of a paid to injure bounty system, suspended coaches (they don't have an union), but instead of just showing this "conclusive evidence", his office decided to "leak" bits and pieces to the media here and there, even going as far as having to "re-leak" information because the first leak didn't make sense (alleged "ledger entry" about the Buffalo game)... then, after 2 months, the NFL presents "transcribed" evidence.

Oh, and I did get the E! thing

Badell announced it late on a Friday so that it could die down by the time it could be discussed on Monday.

He never released evidence. So by not saying anything, he is dragging it out. The leaks were in response to players clamoring for it.

When it first broke, he suspended the coaches. They shut up. and the story died. (It might not seem that way in NO, but outside of NO it did.)

If the players just shut up and took it* this story ends because there is nothing new. Goodell will not release new stuff to revamp the story.

*I'm not saying that this punishment is justified.

 

[pherein]

Badell announced it late on a Friday so that it could die down by the time it could be discussed on Monday.

He never released evidence. So by not saying anything, he is dragging it out. The leaks were in response to players clamoring for it.

When it first broke, he suspended the coaches. They shut up. and the story died. (It might not seem that way in NO, but outside of NO it did.)

If the players just shut up and took it* this story ends because there is nothing new. Goodell will not release new stuff to revamp the story.

*I'm not saying that this punishment is justified.

Well the punishments are light in my opinion if there was a PFI in NO. Id like to see some more heads role.
But common lurk this has been plastered on the NFL channel and nfl.com sense the beginning. Goodell has been none stop on this subject, until he started to meet resistance. Now he's letting 3rd parties speak for him.
This never died. Im in virginia, and never heard the end of it.

 

[Koma]

I don't understand the argument of "Goodell destroyed the tapes. We don't know what else is on the tapes." It's a football game. What the hell else could be on the tapes that could be incriminating? Other than coaches signals what could you be looking for that would be so bad that all the conspiracy theorist have come out of the woodwork. Is it the lone gunman in the grassy knoll? Is it too many close-ups of the opposing teams cheerleaders? What could poosibly be on the tapes that would be so bad?

The Patriots never denied taping opposing coaches signals. They felt that according to the NFL rulebook, they could tape anything as long as it wasn't used in any games. There is no proof that they used them in the same game. Goodell tried to change a rule through a memo. Only the competition committee can change rules. If this was brought before an independent arbitrator it would have been thrown out.

I also feel that it was a personal thing between Belichick and Goodell. Goodell expected Belichick to go in front of the media and apologize. Belichick apologized through a letter which ticked off Goodell. Goodell even admitted it. If you know Belichick, he would have been humiliated if he went in front of the media and apologized. They would have been all over him. That's what Goodell wanted.

That's one of those things that's never going to make sense.

The BSMW site raised that issue last week: The NFL did not share the evidence it had against the Patriots (beyond the tape leaked to Fox Sports and the Walsh tapes) and people assume the league had much more damning evidence and suppressed it. Yet, some of these same people look at how the league is only showing a portion of the evidence against the Saints and assume the league has no real evidence.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I would not mind one bit if the owners - despite their new contract offering to him - decide to part ways sooner rather than later. After all - without his injury reporting policy penalizing coaches like Belichick that put player safety (and strategy) ahead of gambling interests, Bounty-gate never happens.

This doesn't even make sense. It's not his injury reporting policy, it's been in existence for a long time. And I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with bounties...

Goodell's dual mandate whether fans like it or not was to regain financial control and cost certainty of their product for the 32 member collective of business partners that owns the National Football League and assume the bad cop role to eliminate behavior problems posed a threat to the future financial wellbeing of the league that were beyond the partners ability to individually control for a variety of reasons.

They have no reason or desire to part company with this particular commissioner any time soon. He will remain in his post at least until the next CBA is negotiated in 2020. Robert Kraft is a big picture, collective interest kind of guy who gets it. That is why he chose not to fight league discipline. Discipline is also something he and Belichick preach, along with accountability and responsibility. That is why neither chose to fight league imposed discipiline.

It sucks for fans who almost always long for vindication. These guys move on rather than waste energy rehashing the past. I think Bill personally tends to favor the old adage, don't get mad...get even.

The BSMW site raised that issue last week: The NFL did not share the evidence it had against the Patriots (beyond the tape leaked to Fox Sports and the Walsh tapes) and people assume the league had much more damning evidence and suppressed it. Yet, some of these same people look at how the league is only showing a portion of the evidence against the Saints and assume the league has no real evidence.

That's the old damned if you do and damned if you don't conumdrum. Add to that the strategy Vilma's lawyer has him following, essentially attempting to try the case in the court of public opinion first - where no one is under oath...:

But what Vilma is doing, in many ways, is actually brilliant. Here's why.

Take this latest suit. It contains some fairly explosive stuff. He says in the documents the Saints players have viewed less than one percent of the NFL's evidence. He claims the handwritten notes are altered. He says those notes were created by former Saints assistant coach Mike Cerullo, a name I've heard many times before, a name that Saints players have long maintained is the crux of the NFL's case.

Vilma states Cerullo was fired by the Saints, is a bitter employee and his notes are false. Most explosively, Vilma maintains Cerullo has retracted his claims.

Who knows if any of this is true, but it doesn't matter and that's the brilliance.

If the lawsuit moves forward -- and it likely won't -- that's just the gravy.

What Vilma is mostly doing is using the court and his filings to seed doubt among the media and general public. The internal guts of the suit are reported, they go public, and Vilma feeds the Saints faithful new grist that the NFL is full of it and has media members on the fence second-guessing.

Just throw a bunch of crap out there and see what happens.

Again, smart.

Will it work? It's already working. Vilma got some pretty bombastic things out onto the fancy Intranet-a-sphere. That's all he's wanted all along.

And all the NFL can really do is deny his allegations, as they have. But the seed of doubt gets planted leading some to believe more than a denial is required to disprove such allegations that in themselves are absent of any solid proof... Oldest lawyers trick in the book.

Vilma's legal strategy is actually brilliant - CBSSports.com

 

[JoeSixPat]

This doesn't even make sense. It's not his injury reporting policy, it's been in existence for a long time. And I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with bounties...
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You don't think it would be more difficult for the Saint to target injured players and their injuries if oh, say, they didn't know who was injured where?

Goodell is the Commissioner - it's his policy and he's the one who has increased enforcement and penalties (just in case any coaches seriously consider putting player safety ahead of gambling interests - legal or otherwise.)

Let's put it this way. Let's say Brady sprains his knee in practice.

If you had a choice, you'd really prefer to let the Saints or any other team know that - and know where to target him?

That could mean the difference between Brady making it through the game - or having a career ending injury at the hands of a team targeting his knee.

My preference would be to see Brady's career NOT end due to Goodell's injury reporting policy.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

The Saints fan has an excuse. You do not.

The memo was sent to all 32 teams. Think about that as I give you a good analogy.

Where I worked (I'm retired) the HR dept. had to yearly remind us us of several policies, from anti-discrimination to sexual harassment. If I got a memo from HR, I'd look at other desks and see if they got the memo.

I assumed I understood the sexual harassment policy. If they sent out a general memo to everyone because I was telling women they need to dress more provocatively, I would have "misinterpreted" the memo and thrown it out.

Do I need to draw parallels for you? Maybe another reader. The sexual harassment policy is the filming rule, the other desks are the other 31 teams getting the memo.

Now, asshat, say 100 hail Brady's.

What's your problem? What's with the long HR lecture?

I said Belichcik did something wrong. I acknowledged that Goodell had to punish the Patriots.

I have the right to think that the punishment might have been excessive because of the political pressure on Goodell.

Do you mean to tell me that no corporation has ever used a heavy-handed punishment to "make an example" of a high profile employee for violating an HR policy? If you do, then I've got a nice bridge to sell you in downtown Manhattan.

And keep what you no doubt think are clever name-calling and witty punning to yourself. They are neither clever nor witty.