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OT: Would you ever hold out?


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Would you ever hold out?


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For me I don't agree with holdouts. My feeling is if I sign my name on a contract that's a promise that I'll fulfill my end of the deal. Could you imagine the uproar if an owner said "Well, you didn't live up to expectations so we're not gonna pay you as much."
Um, that actually happens all the time.
 
Every individual situation is different. I have no sympathy for a guy like Umenyiora, who signed a big front-loaded contract then acts all offended that there isn't more cash at the end of it.

But a Logan Mankins, who through a one-time CBA quirk finds he doesn't get the free agency he's earned? A Carson Palmer, who after years of loyal service just can't stand his lousy employer one day longer? Plus a lot of the guys we label "holdouts" actually aren't under contract at all but rather negotiating deals.

So yes, I can imagine "holding out."

Well by holdout, I assume he means somebody under contract, not somebody refusing to sign their tender, etc because they are by definition not under contract.

As for the guys with a contract, yes you should honor it. I don't care if the average career in football is four years. Here's an idea, after you're done with football, get another job.

I'm 40, have been employed for 25 years, and probably have another 25 to go. I have zero sympathy.
 
Um, that actually happens all the time.

No it doesn't. A player can't have his contract changed. He can be cut because his contract is not guaranteed. He can be asked to take a pay cut to avoid getting cut. But that is up to the player.

The only thing that really matters in these contracts is the guaranteed money and most of the guys who hold out seem to forget all about the signing bonus they pocketed.
 
So basically if a player outperforms his contract then he is supposed to honor that contract and keep playing for the same terms; but if he underperforms or is injured it is perfectly acceptable for the owner to not pay him (i.e., cut him)?

I'm having a bit of trouble following that logic.
 
Well by holdout, I assume he means somebody under contract, not somebody refusing to sign their tender, etc because they are by definition not under contract.

He might have meant that, but if so he'd be in the minority. Mankins, Samuel, Watson etc. were routinely described as "holding out" when they weren't under contract.

When it comes to true holdouts I think it would really have to be a special circumstance, but I can't say never. It's not always about money, as the Carson Palmer example shows.
 
The only thing that really matters in these contracts is the guaranteed money and most of the guys who hold out seem to forget all about the signing bonus they pocketed.

That drives me crazy too. But hypothetically:

How about a UDFA who got nothing for signing, had no say in the terms of the contract he signed, then worked hard enough to be a starter from day 1 -- enduring the tremendous physical punishment of an every-down NFL player for minimum salary? By year 3, is it morally wrong for him to sit out demanding a new deal?
 
That drives me crazy too. But hypothetically:

How about a UDFA who got nothing for signing, had no say in the terms of the contract he signed, then worked hard enough to be a starter from day 1 -- enduring the tremendous physical punishment of an every-down NFL player for minimum salary? By year 3, is it morally wrong for him to sit out demanding a new deal?

Hypothetically, he should play out his original deal and then get every penny he can when he becomes a FA. IMO.

People hear minimum salary and feel so bad for these guys. I work my ass off to sniff a year of their minimum salary in 5 years.

And here's the problem. Say you extend that poor UDFA a year early and give him a $15 million signing bonus and then 3 years from now he's back thinking he's underpaid because now he isn't a starter, he's a pro-bowler.

What's the difference? It becomes a moral equivalency argument. It's okay for 'x' to holdout because he's only making the minimum, but not for 'y' because he was a 1st round pick and got a bonus. It's the same action and I treat it the same way.
 
To me, $600,000 is more than enough to play a game that I'd play for fun anyway. Anyone who thinks they "deserve" seven figures for playing a sport is a spoiled brat.

Of course, I wouldn't be counting on football to pay for my retirement. That's why you develop other skills and interests.

Whatever you're doing for a living, you're getting paid too much, according to someone. You should stand up as a man of principle, and tell your boss that you want a 66.7% paycut, starting immediately.

Lead the way. Start the trend.
 
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See, the idiocy of the "owners cut players" argument is cutting someone is allowed under the contract that both sides agreed to. (Not to mention the recently agreed upon CBA)

Holding out isn't.
 
See, the idiocy of the "owners cut players" argument is cutting someone is allowed under the contract that both sides agreed to. (Not to mention the recently agreed upon CBA)

Holding out isn't.

Before you call other people idiots, you might want to brush up on what's actually in the contracts. Holding out is no more or less allowed than cutting players is. There are provisions in the CBA and in the contracts themselves for what happens in the event of a holdout, just as there is in the event that a player is cut. The penalties for holding out are pre-established for exactly this reason. Idiot :p
 
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So basically if a player outperforms his contract then he is supposed to honor that contract and keep playing for the same terms; but if he underperforms or is injured it is perfectly acceptable for the owner to not pay him (i.e., cut him)?

I'm having a bit of trouble following that logic.

a lot of people have trouble following it, which is why these discussions are always entirely pointless.
novascotia beat me to it, but I'll explain it again for all the good it will do.

when they sign these contracts you have it in your head that the player is guaranteed this future money, when this is not typically the case.
there are some situations where money is guaranteed, and that money is paid out --- I doubt there are many examples of owners guaranteeing money and not paying.

you have confused this with the more common contract which is not guaranteed.
what this means is that I, as an owner, sign you, as a player, to a 5m dollar deal (not guaranteed) for next year.
this is not a promise to pay you 5m dollars next year, but rather a contractual agreement in which I promise to pay you at that pay rate IF you are playing for me next year.
nowhere in that contract does it promise you a spot on the roster.

hopefully you can follow that logic, but if not don't worry --- as I said, this is entirely pointless.

ps

there are plenty of examples of guys who get fat bonuses and 'underperform' the guarantees and bonus money --- I doubt many of them pay that back, and I'm pretty sure they all collect it, although I'm not sure if al davis ever got anywhere suing jamarcus russell, or whatever that freak was doing.
 
btw, scrizz - nobody cares about your bitterness towards people who make more money than you.

if millions of people around the globe stayed home on sundays to watch you on tv doing your job you might get some equivalent salary.
you'd get destroyed in the nfl, so maybe keep whatever job you've got and quit crying about it.
 
If I held it out it would take both hands and I would get arrested ........... :p
 
So if your employer was playing by one set of rules (Didn't treat contracts as a 'my word is my bond' thing) and was constantly letting co-workers go without fulfilling their contract you would bravely soldier on if you were unhappy?

If so then fair enough, but either way if you look down on players for not living up to their end of a contract you should be looking down on teams for the exact same thing.

PS - Have you ever said 'I hope they cut his ass' about a player?

could you cite us some examples of teams not honoring contracts?
 
I did...and she married a shorter,ugly guy with money:bricks:
 
So if your employer was playing by one set of rules (Didn't treat contracts as a 'my word is my bond' thing) and was constantly letting co-workers go without fulfilling their contract you would bravely soldier on if you were unhappy?

If so then fair enough, but either way if you look down on players for not living up to their end of a contract you should be looking down on teams for the exact same thing.

PS - Have you ever said 'I hope they cut his ass' about a player?

IMO it all evens out, actually

players get alot of money from teams for not really performing up to their contract (bob sanders in indy)

and teams screw over players every now and then


it all evens out :cool:
 
also , isn't it in the terms of the contract that the team may release you at any time?

is it in the terms of the contract that you are allowed to hold out for a new contract before the current one is done?
 
a lot of people have trouble following it, which is why these discussions are always entirely pointless.
novascotia beat me to it, but I'll explain it again for all the good it will do.

when they sign these contracts you have it in your head that the player is guaranteed this future money, when this is not typically the case.
there are some situations where money is guaranteed, and that money is paid out --- I doubt there are many examples of owners guaranteeing money and not paying.

you have confused this with the more common contract which is not guaranteed.
what this means is that I, as an owner, sign you, as a player, to a 5m dollar deal (not guaranteed) for next year.
this is not a promise to pay you 5m dollars next year, but rather a contractual agreement in which I promise to pay you at that pay rate IF you are playing for me next year.
nowhere in that contract does it promise you a spot on the roster.

hopefully you can follow that logic, but if not don't worry --- as I said, this is entirely pointless.

ps

there are plenty of examples of guys who get fat bonuses and 'underperform' the guarantees and bonus money --- I doubt many of them pay that back, and I'm pretty sure they all collect it, although I'm not sure if al davis ever got anywhere suing jamarcus russell, or whatever that freak was doing.

That can easily be framed in the other direction, too. When a player signs a contract, he is not guaranteeing that he will report. The contract stipulates that, if he reports, it will be for X compensation. If he does not, then he will be fined accordingly. Holdout provisions are written into the CBA and the players' contracts just like provisions for terminating contracts are, aka fines and, in extreme cases, losing a year toward free agency. They are both part of the negotiating process, and both are valid. The holdout isn't 'breaking' the contract any more than the team that cuts players is.

These conversations are pointless because there's a lot of people out there who, for some strange reason, insist on seeing only half of the picture. The same arguments that have been made in this thread for why it's okay for teams to cut players can, universally, be used to support the players' right to hold out. The key, as Patjew pointed out, is to do it unemotionally and without acrimony. It's a business decision; nothing more, nothing less.

could you cite us some examples of teams not honoring contracts?

Could you cite some examples of players not honoring contracts? Keeping in mind that holding out doesn't constitute "not honoring a contract" any more than cutting a player does?

also , isn't it in the terms of the contract that the team may release you at any time?

is it in the terms of the contract that you are allowed to hold out for a new contract before the current one is done?

Short answer: yes. As in there are predetermined penalties re: the players' compensation and progress towards free agency, and the player, by holding out, agrees to pay those penalties.

On a side note, have all of you guys seriously never paid an early termination/cancellation fee? I paid one just last month because I found a better deal that made the cancellation fee on my cable bill worth absorbing. I suppose that makes me a dishonorable person, though, since I signed the dotted line and didn't fulfill the full year that I "promised" :p
 
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ok, once again people are determined to prove some kind of equivalency between 2 completely different things for no reason other than to win an internet argument, or whatever this is.

you say that both these things are identical, but while the player doles out performance each year to the owner on a 'pay as you go' basis, the owners often frontload contracts with a bunch of fat cash.

a guy making 2m/yr might get a 25m bonus, which is 12x his annual salary --- I doubt many players give the owners 12 years of production up front.
also, while owners will sometimes guarantee salaries, I don't see too many players guaranteeing production.

so, you can side with whoever you want, call it business, or hop on a soapbox about it, or just go on and on in endless nerd debate, but the 2 situations are hardly the same.

it's a pointless discussion.
 
Could you cite some examples of players not honoring contracts?

I'll be more than happy to just as soon as you cite an example of me making that claim.

let me get a snickers.

like I have said -- pointless.

(although, in this particular case I'm sure there are a few examples of players violating contracts, but that's beside the point)
 
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