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OT: Would you ever hold out?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by NovaScotiaPatsFan, Aug 8, 2011.

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Would you ever hold out?

  1. Yes

    69.1%
  2. No

    30.9%
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  1. NovaScotiaPatsFan

    NovaScotiaPatsFan Rookie

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    For me I don't agree with holdouts. My feeling is if I sign my name on a contract that's a promise that I'll fulfill my end of the deal. Could you imagine the uproar if an owner said "Well, you didn't live up to expectations so we're not gonna pay you as much."

    Maybe these guys should have thought about that before signing their long term contracts.
  2. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    It's hard to say. Sometimes I wish I could hold out at my own job and get more $$, so maybe I shouldn't judge these guys.
  3. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The average career in the NFL is something like 4+ seasons, so if you are a RB still in your rookie contract, hell yeah, I'd hold out. Listen to the players, they NEVER say anything bad about another player holding out. Listen almost none of these contracts are guarenteed, so yeah, the only thing they have sometimes is to hold out and tray and get a better deal.

    When is the last time you heard of a baseball player holding out? It doesn't happen because they have guarenteed contracts in place and salary arbitration. I think that salary arbitration is something that the NFL should look into. The club retain the rights to players for something like their first 6 years, BUT, the players get salary arbitration, so if they are a superstar, they get paid (or in the cases of Pedroria and Youkilis, get long term deals).
  4. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    What about rookie holdouts who've never a signed a contract before.
    Or what about players who have been franchise tagged who were otherwise looking at free agency? There's still lots of scenarios where a player could hold out who hasn't signed a thing.
  5. PushnPencils

    PushnPencils Rookie

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    Supply and Demand....

    Since contracts are not guaranteed, which I'm ok with, Players should leverage their hard work and performance to maximize their earnings in whatever means possible.

    In turn, if players do not perform to their salary level, teams have the right to cut them.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  6. fair catch fryar

    fair catch fryar Rookie

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    Obviously it depends because each player's case is different. If contracts were similar to those in baseball, then there should never be a holdout because the money is guaranteed. In the NFL, a team can cut you lose before the original contract is fulfilled, dependent on the guaranteed money of course. I can't really say, but I wouldn't claim that I would NEVER hold out.
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Times change, the economic landscape changes.. holding out would be a last effort after everything else was tried, and there was a feeling of disconnect between the organization any myself.

    It is probably the least positive way of dealing with it.. with that being said, c. not sure, never had the opportunity to deal with that much money.
  8. McCourty Island

    McCourty Island Rookie

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    Don't teams do this all the time by making players take less money or else they will be cut? Reggie Bush certainly isn't making $10M+ this year like his contact originally stated.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  9. RayClay

    RayClay Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    I'm holding out right now. I'm sure I'll get a great offer soon.
  10. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Every individual situation is different. I have no sympathy for a guy like Umenyiora, who signed a big front-loaded contract then acts all offended that there isn't more cash at the end of it.

    But a Logan Mankins, who through a one-time CBA quirk finds he doesn't get the free agency he's earned? A Carson Palmer, who after years of loyal service just can't stand his lousy employer one day longer? Plus a lot of the guys we label "holdouts" actually aren't under contract at all but rather negotiating deals.

    So yes, I can imagine "holding out."
  11. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Depends...what is my talent level and what is my pay in proportion to my talent level.

    Right now....i'd say no...i'd be willing to even play for free. Might actually get a ring out of it.
  12. fnordcircle

    fnordcircle tfw not enough helmets PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So you must also dislike teams like the Patriots who cut players before their contracts are up.

    I mean hey, the Patriots signed their name on the contract to pay that player for a length of time, if they couldn't fulfill their end of the deal they shouldn't have signed it, right?

    PS - If you've ever left a job for more money you're as greedy to some poor Indian dirt farmer as an NFL player holding out seems to you. The number of zeroes to the left of the decimal sign shouldn't dictate the morality of a business decision.
  13. makoute

    makoute Rookie

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    Owners say that all the time, Lawyer Milloy comes to mind right away. Honoring contracts is a noble idea and all, just not in the NFL. The nfl is a different beast, plenty of players get cut before the end of their contract or are asked to restructure, take less more, that's the nature of the NFL.
  14. TheSolderKing

    TheSolderKing Rookie

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    NO WAY


    I'm too classy to hold out. I signed a contract and i'm still hooked into it until I am resigned or become a FA. It is about the TEAM and not me. I'm not gonna be a little B i tch and holdout b/c I feel like I am worth more than my contract. I'm an NFL player I make good $$$ I would never hurt the teasm by a hold out orchestrated by EGO. I will let my PLAY dictate what the team does for me. If they want me they will extend me. If not w/e

    edit- I would talk to management if there was a problem.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  15. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    if I was an all-pro on my rookie contract that I got as a 5th round pick, ABSOLUTELY.

    simply because I know for a fact that the moment I don't live up to my first big deal, I will be cut.

    teams don't sweat cutting guys who aren't worth it.....I would not sweat holding out if I am playing like an 8-10M guy who is getting the league minimum.

    the question is not whether to hold out, but when is the best time to hold out and hold your teams feet to the fire.

    I mean if deion branch could basically cost the pats an SB win, then a player can be said to have leverage. it is just a matter of doing it at the right time.
  16. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But that's the contract as the NFLPA agreed to it. Guaranteed money is just that, guaranteed even if you suck. Unguaranteed salary is just that, not guaranteed. When these guys sign their deal they know up front what is and isn't guaranteed. In many cases they are being paid a % of the total contract value up front as part of the trade off. Trouble is many of them forget that (or have spent that) by the time the backend rolls around. While others aren't holding out for a deal per se so much as holding out for what the team may view as an unrealistic deal.

    And the average career of an NFL player is 6 years. The numbers the association trumpeted during the lockout included any cup of coffee guy ever signed who never made a 53 man roster like all the UDFA's teams are trying out this TC season. The average pro bowler has a 9 year career.

    And anyone recommending the NFL adopt any MLB rules is nuts...
  17. falloutboy14

    falloutboy14 Rookie

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    As long as good players have short careers due to injuries, I'll never go against a young player, especially a RB, on a rookie contract trying to get his fair value for a contract. Injury risk is too great & careers too short to play out an extended period of time on a bad contract.
  18. Patjew

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    #18 Jersey

    I consider myself an extremely loyal person (15 years with the same company, never cheated on my wife, blah blah blah), but yes... I can see circumstances where I would hold out. I would try to do it quietly and without acrimony.
  19. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #18 Jersey

    OK LaDanian.
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    Absolutely. It's one of the few weapons in a player's asenal.
  21. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not too many people get paid to do what they love doing. But football is high risk. So it would be important to me to have enough guaranteed money that, if it all ended suddenly, I would know that my family and I would live decently. If the team wasn't offering me that, I'd do what I needed to. But beyond that I've got other priorities.
  22. Simkin

    Simkin Banned

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    TBH, if I were Tom Brady I would hold out every offseason since 2004.
  23. fnordcircle

    fnordcircle tfw not enough helmets PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Probably the most reasonable response in this thread.
  24. BradyFTW!

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    #12 Jersey

    Teams do that everytime they cut someone.

    If I was outproducing my contract to a huge degree, then sure, I would entertain the idea of holding out. I definitely wouldn't rule it out on principle alone. NFL careers don't last long enough to play a bunch of years way below your market worth.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  25. BradyFTW!

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    #12 Jersey

    Definitely, Chris Johnson is the primary example here. When you look at how much Tennessee rides him, anything short of holding out just doesn't make sense. They're running him into the ground right now, and are taking years off of the end of his career. Why wouldn't he hold out and demand that they pay him accordingly for the 300+ carries per year that he gives them?
  26. BradyFTW!

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    #12 Jersey

    Likewise, when the team signs a player to a contract, they know that a holdout in the event of outperforming the contract is a likely scenario, the penalties of which are well-established.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2011
  27. Seels

    Seels Rookie

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    Depends on the organization I'm with, what I would think of the longterm plans, and how much I think I'm getting underpaid. If I'm on a go-nowhere org with no plan like the mid decade Raiders / 9ers or the current Bengals or Broncos? Absolutely. If I'm in an org like the Steelers / Pats / Falcons / Packers that has clear long and short term plans, well it'd be a little harder.
  28. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    i agree with you

    i would honor my contract, even if the team doesn't always honor their end
  29. fester

    fester Rookie

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    That part about the owners saying "Nope, you're not good enough, so here is a pay-cut" happens every year on every team as veteran players get cut because there is a cheaper, probably younger player who the owners/coaches/GM wants to use that roster spot/cap space for.

    If the contracts were A) fully guaranteed and b) rookie contracts were set at market value or very short (2 year initial deal maybe), then I would be less sympathetic to hold-outs, but under the current system, holding out is the limited leverage a player has to maximize their lifetime earnings.
  30. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    it's all about integrity IMO

    a team lacking integrity on their end of the deal, isn't going to effect me and my own integrity

    "if billy jumped off a bridge, would you?" and i'm not talking about bungie jumping
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