Brandon Tate's future as a PATRIOT

[supafly]

One thing that always comes to mind whenever I read a 'let's cut/fire this guy' thread is 'okay; who is going to replace him that will be an improvement? Let's give Tate (and Price) a little time; the idea of pulling the plug already doesn't make any sense to me.

I absolutely agree with this thinking. We haven't seen enough of Tate, and none of Price to determine that they cannot get the job done.

It's going to be interesting to see who wants it more, as I am seeing this battle as a possible one or the other--although that very well may be wrong of me. I just am not sure that I see room or opportunities for both moving forward, but that is just poor speculation and guesswork on my part. Nothing more than a stupid hunch with no substantiation. There is also the probability that Branch will be gone, and that both will be part of the offense moving forward, with no apparent replacement for Deion. I am not sure that I subscribe to that theory right now, but it may very well be a possibility if no free agents/higher draft WR picks are taken. Regardless of all that, it will be a good storyline to keep an eye on if/when TC happens + as the season progresses. Personally it doesn't matter to me which one steps up, as long as one or the other shows promise. I just don't want a Wheatley/Wilhite part II, although at this point that would be incredibly unfair to jump to that conclusion.

The reason people want to bring in someone is because Tate didn't get the job done, and there's no guarantee he'll get it done moving forward. It's really that simple.

I can also appreciate and respect this point of view also. There are many who will claim that we just don't have enough shown from him to be particularly optimistic about at this point, and that we shouldn't spend more than another season or so trying to find out. I have no problem with this theory either, but at the same time I do feel as though Tate absolutely deserves at least another yr to develop (which you very much seem to agree with too). In other words, I really don't feel as though there is a right or wrong answer, or a viewpoint to this, besides giving him this next yr to prove himself. I can respect those who are getting impatient, and those who are sticking up for him too. One more yr for me--and then it may be time to move on, or at least have him in a ST only/Slater-type role that is possibly still used for kickoff returns and specialty plays--but after another yr, I will be in the group that is getting impatient as a WR prospect. Only time will tell, so there's really no use debating it too much one way or another--although it seems to be a very debatable topic

 

[BradyFTW!]

No. What is a poor example what you posted because it ignores where the players were on their respective teams receiving depth chart.

Essentially, you are punishing Tate because he had Moss/Branch, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Faulk/Woodhead, in front of him on the depth charts.

If two running backs are ahead of Tate on the depth chart as a pass catcher, that says enough about him in its own right, to this point in his career.

Collie - Ended up being the number 2 receiver for the colts because of injuries to Gonzalez and Clark.

Collie caught 60 balls in 2009. Clark, Wayne, Garcon, and Addai were all healthy (started 60 of a possible 64 games between them)

Wallace - Was the #2 receiver opposite Holmes because the Steelers didn't have anyone else..

Hines Ward begs to differ. The reason why the Steelers were comfortable with trading Holmes in the first place is because they knew that Wallace could step into his role just fine, which is exactly what he did. In any case, he just came off a 1,250 yard, 10 TD season, so depth chart issues or not, it goes without saying that there's no comparison between him and Tate at this point in their careers.

Nicks - Started off as the #3 WR and 4th in the receiving depth chart.

And yet he still got 800 yards and 6 TDs. If anything, that hurts your case.

Murphy - Was the #2 receiver on the Raiders depth chart...

Look who he had throwing to him. I think we can safely call that a wash.

Now, could you let everyone know which of those players were recovering from a torn ACL during their rookie year? And which one of them had a Hall of Fame WR as the primary receiver on the team?

Ok, so we're back to the ACL thing. That's fine, as long as you recognize that that's the only legitimate point of contention left, really. To this point in his career, he's been a subpar wide receiver, and age probably isn't the issue, given that there's a pretty sizable list of receivers from the same class whose production dwarfs his. If it's the injury, then fine. Either way, that doesn't change the reality of the situation.

 

[patsfan-1982]

i think he's doing what the pats Drafted him to do replace Hobbs as the #1 KR, does that were hopeing he was going to be a 90 rec 1200 yerd WR i think have and will be let down. lets face it he has done more then any outher pats 3rd round pick has done over the last 6 years just the fact that he made the team after being hurt for 2 years and had impact as a KR is pretty good in my book

 

[Metaphors]

Tate, a starting WR, had the sixth most receptions on the team... behind two WRs, two TEs, and a RB. If he had shown that he could get open and make catches, he wouldn't be that far down the list, period. No need to make excuses for him: he might turn into a good player, but he just isn't one yet. No need to overthink this.

No need to underthink it either. Your premise only works in the context of "all things being equal". Clearly that isn't the case. Welker is an elite slot WR. Branch is a savvy possession receiver. Gronk and Hernandez are both matchup nightmares (for different reasons) in short to intermediate zones. Woodhead is a safety blanket who specializes in YAC.

With these guys as the focus, the Pats offense was amazingly efficient and productive. Brady only needed around 20-25 completions to handily win most games. The 5 guys above are easily capable of that production with a minimal amount of risk (no picks after game #5, but 26 TD passes).

What possible motivation would Brady have to go to Tate except to keep the defense honest? Tate had the 6th most receptions because in most cases he was the 6th best option for Brady to throw to. Having 5 better options is a testament to the offense the Pats put together...not an indictment of Tate's abilities.

Tate has a lot of development before he reaches his potential. That development has been and will be slower than if he was on Pittsburgh or Chicago, with weaker receivers and high-risk QBs. Tate doesn't need to produce like Wallace or Knox or even Branch. He just needs to do the job needed to get the Pats to the Super Bowl and win. He did what was asked of him in 2010 (at a decent to good level) and I suspect he will be asked to do more looking forward.

What those expectations are is something only Belichick knows. Whether or not Tate is up to that challenge is something only he knows. If game #19 (Miami) doesn't show improvement in setting up DBs and fighting for deep balls in the air, Tate will probably be playing game #39 for another team. Not a surprise for a 23 year old that still hasn't had a normal offseason.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

How's things in Columbus?? Not so good I hear. A sad day for fans like us. At least it didn't turn out that way for our coach here, with the whole 'great coach' resignation etc. I was worried about that with the whole Spygate nonsense in 2007.

Better days ahead my friend.

On another note, did you see the O|A|R show last week? (assuming that you live and go to school there)

Yeah..Sad. I never liked TP. I remember, when I was Iraq and watching couple of games of OSU, I was still mad at Tress for benching a 6th year Senior QB (Todd B) for some freshman who really sucked at passing. I gave up on him after that Purdue debacle in 2009. Since I go to OSU and used to party near campus, I've heard stories of this douchebag.

I love Tress but it's his own fault. I just hope, at most, it's a 2 year bowl ban and some scholarships and hopefully the full season suspension of those players.

Na. I've seen them before though!

 

[supafly]

Yeah..Sad. I never liked TP. I remember, when I was Iraq and watching couple of games of OSU, I was still mad at Tress for benching a 6th year Senior QB (Todd B) for some freshman who really sucked at passing. I gave up on him after that Purdue debacle in 2009. Since I go to OSU and used to party near campus, I've heard stories of this douchebag.

I love Tress but it's his own fault. I just hope, at most, it's a 2 year bowl ban and some scholarships and hopefully the full season suspension of those players.

Na. I've seen them before though!

As far as Pryor goes, I really can't see anyone actually putting too much stock into him as an NFL QB. I really think he's fooling no one but himself. He's completely dumb as a freaking rock, and his actual QB skills arern't really all that hot--as you already know. I suppose there's a chance that he may be able to do something as a WR, but we've all seen that story before. I obviously can't predict the future, but I just don't see too much NFL success for Pryor.

With Tressel, I have been following him for many yrs, ever since I lived in Youngstown when he coached YSU. I truly think the man is extremely talented, and also a good guy/even a good role model. Before this nonsense, he was certainly one of the most respected coaches in the NCAA. I think his whole problem was being too friendly to the players, and not wanting to cause a big thing out of what he perceived to be a 'smaller' type problem. It's a shame, because I think he'd be a well respected and very good coach somewhere else. I hate to say it, b/c I know that a lot of NCAA coaches fail in the NFL, but Tressel's ONE and ONLY problem was not making the right decisions on some college kids' mistakes. He often made them write papers, make appearences etc when they messed up--to try and teach them a lesson, so he obviously thought that he was indeed punishing them, and helping them. I do not believe for a second that he was attempting to give the team an 'edge,' I believe that he thought these were smaller-type, petty problems that could be handled in house, instead of drawing attn from the media and NCAA. That said, his coaching skills are freaking fantastic. 3 Championship game appearances in 9 or 10 years + another handful of top 5 finishes speak volumes about his incredible coaching ability. I wonder in this particular case, if he could go against the grain of the failed NCAA to NFL coaches, and do well in the pros? After all, he never failed as a coach on ANY level---YSU's championships, OSU's incredible success. The only thing the guy did was let some scumbag, ego-tistical players like Pryor get away with making some college kid-like mistakes, and tried to punish them in house instead of reporting it.

The only reason I asked about the OAR show is b/c you live in Columbus, and they obviously have a huge following there, as having started at OSU. I have a very, very close family member who plays saxophone in the band.

 

[supafly]

No need to underthink it either. Your premise only works in the context of "all things being equal". Clearly that isn't the case. Welker is an elite slot WR. Branch is a savvy possession receiver. Gronk and Hernandez are both matchup nightmares (for different reasons) in short to intermediate zones. Woodhead is a safety blanket who specializes in YAC.

With these guys as the focus, the Pats offense was amazingly efficient and productive. Brady only needed around 20-25 completions to handily win most games. The 5 guys above are easily capable of that production with a minimal amount of risk (no picks after game #5, but 26 TD passes).

What possible motivation would Brady have to go to Tate except to keep the defense honest? Tate had the 6th most receptions because in most cases he was the 6th best option for Brady to throw to. Having 5 better options is a testament to the offense the Pats put together...not an indictment of Tate's abilities.

Tate has a lot of development before he reaches his potential. That development has been and will be slower than if he was on Pittsburgh or Chicago, with weaker receivers and high-risk QBs. Tate doesn't need to produce like Wallace or Knox or even Branch. He just needs to do the job needed to get the Pats to the Super Bowl and win. He did what was asked of him in 2010 (at a decent to good level) and I suspect he will be asked to do more looking forward.

What those expectations are is something only Belichick knows. Whether or not Tate is up to that challenge is something only he knows. If game #19 (Miami) doesn't show improvement in setting up DBs and fighting for deep balls in the air, Tate will probably be playing game #39 for another team. Not a surprise for a 23 year old that still hasn't had a normal offseason.

This is a damn good post Metaphors. You bring up some very good points about the whole issue, and actually opened up my own eyes to some things. I certainly think Tate deserves another yr, but then again, as you said, his role here may be a little different than most of us are seeing at first.

Regardless, I think he will need to step up production, but it may not be that hard for him to catch about 40 balls here next yr, and that may be exactly what Belichick is looking for.

Certainly gave me a bit of a different perspective.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

As far as Pryor goes, I really can't see anyone actually putting too much stock into him as an NFL QB. I really think he's fooling no one but himself. He's completely dumb as a freaking rock, and his actual QB skills arern't really all that hot--as you already know. I suppose there's a chance that he may be able to do something as a WR, but we've all seen that story before. I obviously can't predict the future, but I just don't see too much NFL success for Pryor.

With Tressel, I have been following him for many yrs, ever since I lived in Youngstown when he coached YSU. I truly think the man is extremely talented, and also a good guy/even a good role model. Before this nonsense, he was certainly one of the most respected coaches in the NCAA. I think his whole problem was being too friendly to the players, and not wanting to cause a big thing out of what he perceived to be a 'smaller' type problem. It's a shame, because I think he'd be a well respected and very good coach somewhere else. I hate to say it, b/c I know that a lot of NCAA coaches fail in the NFL, but Tressel's ONE and ONLY problem was not making the right decisions on some college kids' mistakes. He often made them write papers, make appearences etc when they messed up--to try and teach them a lesson, so he obviously thought that he was indeed punishing them, and helping them. I do not believe for a second that he was attempting to give the team an 'edge,' I believe that he thought these were smaller-type, petty problems that could be handled in house, instead of drawing attn from the media and NCAA. That said, his coaching skills are freaking fantastic. 3 Championship game appearances in 9 or 10 years + another handful of top 5 finishes speak volumes about his incredible coaching ability. I wonder in this particular case, if he could go against the grain of the failed NCAA to NFL coaches, and do well in the pros? After all, he never failed as a coach on ANY level---YSU's championships, OSU's incredible success. The only thing the guy did was let some scumbag, ego-tistical players like Pryor get away with making some college kid-like mistakes, and tried to punish them in house instead of reporting it.

The only reason I asked about the OAR show is b/c you live in Columbus, and they obviously have a huge following there, as having started at OSU. I have a very, very close family member who plays saxophone in the band.

Oh cool. My best friend loves OAR. About TP, yeah only way he gets a shot in the NFL is as WR, maybe as a flex TE like Herno just because of his size and speed. According to some ex players, there were two sets of rules. One for TP and the rest for the players.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

double post...sorry folks.

 

[supafly]

Oh cool. My best friend loves OAR. About TP, yeah only way he gets a shot in the NFL is as WR, maybe as a flex TE like Herno just because of his size and speed. According to some ex players, there were two sets of rules. One for TP and the rest for the players.

The ironic part is that I actually hoped that he'd choose OSU, as he had the big press conference etc after he narrowed it down to Michigan, OSU, and Penn St. The media hyped it up so badly, and especially up here in Pittsburgh where he went to High School. I knew he was a D-bag, but I was hoping that Tressel could reel him in a bit. Instead, it never happened. The defense is the great part of that team every yr, just about anyone could've probably done just as well at QB.

I guess it's another life lesson that you should be careful for what you wish for, lol. Rooting for the wild-card Giants as a 6th seed back in 2007 is another prime example of that.

 

[randomk1]

No. What is a poor example what you posted because it ignores where the players were on their respective teams receiving depth chart.

Essentially, you are punishing Tate because he had Moss/Branch, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Faulk/Woodhead, in front of him on the depth charts.

Collie - Ended up being the number 2 receiver for the colts because of injuries to Gonzalez and Clark.

Wallace - Was the #2 receiver opposite Holmes because the Steelers didn't have anyone else..

Nicks - Started off as the #3 WR and 4th in the receiving depth chart.

Murphy - Was the #2 receiver on the Raiders depth chart...

Now, could you let everyone know which of those players were recovering from a torn ACL during their rookie year? And which one of them had a Hall of Fame WR as the primary receiver on the team?

What the hell? Wasn't Tate a starter or am i missing something? And like Deus said...Tate had more catches when Moss was on the team.

No way in hell could Tate do what Collie, Wallace or Nicks do for their teams. It's not even close. Those guys are #1 receivers.

 

[Shelterdog]

What the hell? Wasn't Tate a starter or am i missing something? And like Deus said...Tate had more catches when Moss was on the team.

No way in hell could Tate do what Collie, Wallace or Nicks do for their teams. It's not even close. Those guys are #1 receivers.

I'll give you Wallace and Nicks but Collie isn't a number one. He's a big slot receiver. (I also doubt his career lasts because of the concussions he seems to get when he's in the slot; he's too big to shake off blows.)

 

[randomk1]

I'll give you Wallace and Nicks but Collie isn't a number one. He's a big slot receiver. (I also doubt his career lasts because of the concussions he seems to get when he's in the slot; he's too big to shake off blows.)

Collie is the #1 the same way Welker has been our #1. He was leading the league in yardage in and receptions before he got hurt. 44 receptions,503 yards and 6 TD's in 6 games. Manning targeted him more than Wayne.

Our game vs the Colts he was killing us before he had to leave and his last game vs the jaguars it was evident that he just made the entire Colts O go with a 8 receptions 87 yard 2 TD game.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

His performance was better when Moss was on the team to draw attention away. He had 11 of his 24 catches in those first 4 games. Once teams didn't have to worry about the threat of Moss, Tate ended up with 13 catches in his next 12 games, was without a catch in the playoffs, and finished the post-Moss season averaging just 1 catch per game (13 games, 13 catches).

So......in what was an effective rookie season, the four games with Moss would have prorated out to 45-50 catches, 500-600 yards 5-7 TD's. This would have been the result from the offense worked on in the offseason.

On the whole not bad.

I do have to give you credit. You seem to have little apprehension in continually providing really dumb thread contributions.

Uhh, yeah, you can throw out 2009. Only a buffoon adds that year. When he was drafted in 2009, it was recognized Tate would be "red shirted". Even Kiper knew that.

Passing offenses usually take three years.....with offseason work. Change the offense mid year is tough...add in young players and the difficulty is compounded.

Only a clown would care about other guys. Do they play an exact replica of the Pats offense? Well, no so who cares.

 

[Haley]

I remember watching Tate last year thinking he always looked out of sorts. He seemed kind of insecure out there and whenever he did catch the ball, it seemed to take him completely by surprise. He always had that look on his face like, "it worked! Wow, I can't believe it actually worked!"

Maybe with some more route training we might see something more from him. Until he looks comfortable out there he's not really going to be an asset to anyone.

 

[Triumph]

I remember watching Tate last year thinking he always looked out of sorts. He seemed kind of insecure out there and whenever he did catch the ball, it seemed to take him completely by surprise. He always had that look on his face like, "it worked! Wow, I can't believe it actually worked!"

Maybe with some more route training we might see something more from him. Until he looks comfortable out there he's not really going to be an asset to anyone.

2011 will be Tates 2nd full season back from mcl/acl surgery.

Usually by the 2nd full season the injured player starts getting back to normal. Brady wasnt the same after 1 season and neither was Welker.

 

[Oswlek]

I remember watching Tate last year thinking he always looked out of sorts. He seemed kind of insecure out there and whenever he did catch the ball, it seemed to take him completely by surprise. He always had that look on his face like, "it worked! Wow, I can't believe it actually worked!"

Maybe with some more route training we might see something more from him. Until he looks comfortable out there he's not really going to be an asset to anyone.

Watch the linked video. Tate certainly has some comfort issues, but you're memories aren't fully accurate on this one. Tate actually looked pretty solid in the season opening offense, it wasn't until NE shifted his role that things started to get shakey.

As for all the talk of other receivers, I think some here don't quite understand the team they watch.

Any talk of Pitt's Wallace should be dropped right away. The Steelers don't run anything remotely close to a timing, read offense. It more resembles what you and 5 of your buddies might run in the backyard. "Here's the first route, then just start running around and I'll find you!". With Tate's athleticism, he'd most certainly be on the receiving end of some of Ben's bombs. And there is no way to know how Wallace would react to NE's offense.

As for Collie, he definitely would have come in handy in 2009, but 2010 is another story. NE barely had room to squeeze Edelman onto the field for 5-10 snaps a game, what were they going to do with another comparable guy?

Of course guys like Nicks and Harvin look like they could play the part, but both were first rounders and shouldn't be part of the conversation. Britt is clearly superior and is a solid deep threat. Knox has started his career well and looks like a superior comparable.

None of the other guys really jump out as haven been that much more impressive than Tate, especially when you look at their first year. He may or may not have an impressive career, but what we're seeing here is more a reflection of the fan base than the player.

 

[Oswlek]

One more thing. For those trying to use Woody's receptions as evidence that Tate isn't getting it, Kevin Faulk had the following team reception rankings from 2003-2005: 2/5/4

Not sure why it is an indictment on anyone that a RB would end up in the top 5 for receptions. It happens every year.

 

[BradyFTW!]

One more thing. For those trying to use Woody's receptions as evidence that Tate isn't getting it, Kevin Faulk had the following team reception rankings from 2003-2005: 2/5/4

Not sure why it is an indictment on anyone that a RB would end up in the top 5 for receptions. It happens every year.

It's an indictment of the starting WR who finishes the year with 24 receptions.

2003: Branch, Givens, and Brown all had more receiving yards than Faulk did
2004: Givens, Patten, and Branch all had more yards (as did Graham)
2005: Branch, Givens, Brown, and Dwight (and Watson) had more yards than Faulk.

A starting WR managing 24 catches over a full season is unprecedented in the Belichick era. Being sixth on the team in receptions with the same qualifiers is also unprecedented. Of the five guys ahead of him, three were in their first year on the team, and two were rookies altogether. You folks can claim that it was because he was buried on the depth chart all that you want, but at no point in the season were we swimming in WR talent. What he ostensibly is--an edge receiver who can stretch the field and beat single coverage--is exactly what we were lacking, and lacking that might be the single biggest reason why we lost to the Jets in the playoffs. If he was a good player, the team would have looked to him more, because they needed him. But they didn't, because in 2010 he simply wasn't a good receiver.

To this point in his career, it's self-evident that Tate is not a good WR. He might become one, and I hope that he does- as far as I'm aware, nobody on this thread has said that it won't or can't happen. We're all Pats fans, and we're all rooting for him. But acting like his progress to date is normal and fine and not something to be concerned about is pure, blind homerism. Hopefully he can pull it all together and become a solid WR option. Even if not, he's still a good KR, so hopefully some combination of Taylor Price and a FA WR can do the job instead.

In either case, it's a simple fact that Tate has not produced to date, and, compared to other guys in his draft class and other Patriots who are younger than he is, there isn't a whole lot to be encouraged about. Hopefully that will change this year, but we haven't seen much of anything from him on the field to indicate that that will happen... yet.

Honestly, I think this whole debate is indicative of two different ways of looking at young Pats players: there's a camp that assumes that they will be good until they've definitely proven that they won't/can't be, and there's another camp that will assume nothing that they haven't already shown the capacity to do. The former tends to overestimate players, and the latter tends to underestimate them. The difference, especially when you're talking about, for example, a 3rd round pick with a pretty devastating injury history, is that players in that position are far more likely to wash out than become productive NFL starters. Just on odds alone, the latter camp is far more likely to be correct, and that's exactly why we see things the way that we do. I'll believe that Tate is capable of being a solid NFL starter the day that he shows on the field that he is physically and mentally capable of it. Until then, I'll hope for the best and assume nothing.

 

[goheels22002]

Tate has a very interesting camp ahead of him, I think. BB always brings in a couple of WRs to see who might fit with Brady and give the offense and special teams a new dimension. Tate has to prove he's a top-flight special teams returner and a solid outside deep threat. there will probably be four or five guys competing for Tate's job and if he isn't the best competitor, BB can trade him for draft picks or maybe a veteran LB or DL.

In this offense, if Tate were to be be a 50-catch WR, he would be a stud. Everybody is an eligible receiver except for the interior line with the Pats so there won't be that one player that the opposition can key on. It makes sense that Tate was more prolific when Moss was around because he was the guy the other team could overlook or match with a so-so DB or linebacker. Moss leaves and Tate drew the best downfield corner while Brady torched the opposition with RBs, TEs, Welker and Branch.

Tate's other value is that he's inexpensive and has a full season under his belt with Brady and the special teams. I think he stays put, but it is not a lock by any means. He's a role player who can have a few highlight moments which is just fine because there are plenty of players to share the spotlight.