Badger and supafly talk pass rushers.

[patchick]

Badger, I'll say it again -- EVERYBODY here really, really wants a better pass rush. What's your draft plan?

 

[Badger]

Badger, I'll say it again -- EVERYBODY here really, really wants a better pass rush. What's your draft plan?

Move up to take the top pass rusher available, even if you have to climb into the top 10. Even if you give up both #1's, we still have the 1st pick in the 2nd round and many others. It is too hard to get in their minds to know who they like best as the top pass rusher that fits the "Pats way" but they need to target one and take a chance for once. Take a gamble. Paid off very well when we went after Mayo.

 

[patchick]

Move up to take the top pass rusher available, even if you have to climb into the top 10. Even if you give up both #1's, we still have the 1st pick in the 2nd round and many others. It is too hard to get in their minds to know who they like best as the top pass rusher that fits the "Pats way" but they need to target one and take a chance for once. Take a gamble. Paid off very well when we went after Mayo.

See, this is where we disagree. I don't think you can do a mock with hypothetical players, I think you need real ones.

You want the Pats to draft an impact OLB who "fits the Pats way" and will singlehandedly transform the team's pass rush, and who will be available around picks 6-10, but it's "too hard" to know who that player is. What if it's "hard" because the player just doesn't exist?

 

[Badger]

Badger, I'll say it again -- EVERYBODY here really, really wants a better pass rush. What's your draft plan?

I guess my major beef is listening to people talk about how we should take Mark Ingram or this Offensive Lineman or this Reciever in the 1st round. While it would be nice to upgrade these positions, this just ignores our MAJOR glaring weakness. Unless lightning strikes, we are not going to get a guy in the 2nd round who is going to be a beast in rushing the passer next year and help us next year. This team needs help now, not 3 years down the road. It is one major defensive playmaker who can rush the passer away from being an incredible team who can dominate playoff games. We can't afford to develop another "project" like Cunningham and hope that he turns into an effective pass rusher down the road. We need to go out and grab a guy with special tools who can get after guys like Sanchez next year based upon talent alone. You are only going to find a guy like that at the very top of the draft unless you acquire a special talent in free agency and this just doesn't seem likely this year. While it is certainly no guarantee that a top level pick is going to be a stud and the draft is littered with some failures like Gholston, it just makes sense to take a chance this year when we have an incredible amount of ammunition with our picks. We can afford to take a big swing here and still draft a number of other quality players. It is simply all about the PASS RUSH with this team right now and this can no longer be ignored for us to get back on top like we were with guys like McGinest, Vrabel, Seymour, etc. who could get after the QB.

 

[Badger]

See, this is where we disagree. I don't think you can do a mock with hypothetical players, I think you need real ones.

You want the Pats to draft an impact OLB who "fits the Pats way" and will singlehandedly transform the team's pass rush, and who will be available around picks 6-10, but it's "too hard" to know who that player is. What if it's "hard" because the player just doesn't exist?

Pass rush can come from OLB or DE. You can't tell me there isn't a guy in the top 10 picks that can get after the QB that could fit in the Pats system. No way.

 

[patchick]

Pass rush can come from OLB or DE. You can't tell me there isn't a guy in the top 10 picks that can get after the QB that could fit in the Pats system. No way.

Not to worry, I'm not telling you that, and I don't believe it. I was just trying to make the point that you draft players, not positions.

The vast majority of posters here have been targeting DE & OLB at #17 for months. The offense options have mostly come into the discussion as more and more mocks show every worthwhile target at DE & OLB gone in the top 16. The question is, what then? Do you spend #17 on a Heyward or Wilkerson or A. Smith, or do you take advantage of a better talent at another position slipping and use your ammo to position for one of the DEs, or an OLB like Sheard or Reed, later on?

IOW, we all share your goal, we just don't all feel that piling all the draft's value into a single top-10 player is the way to get there. (Remember that in your own example of Mayo BB started off with a top-10 pick and traded down for his guy. He doesn't have that luxury this year.)

 

[Badger]

Not to worry, I'm not telling you that, and I don't believe it. I was just trying to make the point that you draft players, not positions.

The vast majority of posters here have been targeting DE & OLB at #17 for months. The offense options have mostly come into the discussion as more and more mocks show every worthwhile target at DE & OLB gone in the top 16. The question is, what then? Do you spend #17 on a Heyward or Wilkerson or A. Smith, or do you take advantage of a better talent at another position slipping and use your ammo to position for one of the DEs, or an OLB like Sheard or Reed, later on?

IOW, we all share your goal, we just don't all feel that piling all the draft's value into a single top-10 player is the way to get there. (Remember that in your own example of Mayo BB started off with a top-10 pick and traded down for his guy. He doesn't have that luxury this year.)

All very good discussion. It is just my strong opinion that we may need to move up this year to get a good one. I am sure we could move up by packaging both #1's and still have all kinds of picks left in round 2 and beyond. The time is now to move. Brady is getting no younger and needs a guy like a Clay Matthews (or a Seymour, McGinest, Vrabel type) to help get him another title. Picking another OL and a running back is not going to get us past the Jets. Like it or not Sanchez is only going to get better and will start to shred us without putting a pass rush on him.

 

[dryheat44]

All very good discussion. It is just my strong opinion that we may need to move up this year to get a good one. I am sure we could move up by packaging both #1's and still have all kinds of picks left in round 2 and beyond. The time is now to move. Brady is getting no younger and needs a guy like a Clay Matthews (or a Seymour, McGinest, Vrabel type) to help get him another title. Picking another OL and a running back is not going to get us past the Jets. Like it or not Sanchez is only going to get better and will start to shred us without putting a pass rush on him.

We had Adam Vinatieri for those 3 Super Bowl wins. I think what we need to do is find the next Adam Vinatieri in the draft and get him.

 

[Brady2Welker]

All very good discussion. It is just my strong opinion that we may need to move up this year to get a good one. I am sure we could move up by packaging both #1's and still have all kinds of picks left in round 2 and beyond. The time is now to move. Brady is getting no younger and needs a guy like a Clay Matthews (or a Seymour, McGinest, Vrabel type) to help get him another title. Picking another OL and a running back is not going to get us past the Jets. Like it or not Sanchez is only going to get better and will start to shred us without putting a pass rush on him.

You keep talking about Clay Mathews like he's the sole reason the Packers won he SB. They have a very very good defense even without him. Cullen Jenkins is above average, Woodson is still elite, Williams is a top 5 CB easily, BJ Raji is a top 5 NT, Nick Collins is also very good, Sam Shields a UDFA CB made big contributions. Seriously, that defense is lined up down and sideways with talent. It's not just the pass rush. They have a very potent pass rush, competent LB play and an exceptional secondary.

I could do the exact same thing for the Steelers roster. The Patriots have very few top 10 defensive players. McCourty (if you can use one year to put him top 10), Wilfork, Mayo. That's it. We need an infusion of talent in a lot of spots on the defense. One of which is defensive end, if you want more proof of that then hook back up the interviews of Vince Willfork on WEEI in the first half of the season. He said teams were forcing them into the nickel package and then running it on them. The defensive end play by this team has been just as miserable if not worse than OLB. Go back and watch the defensive line play from last year, it was terrible. Part of generating pressure is having a respectable defensive front, which we don't have.

 

[Badger]

You keep talking about Clay Mathews like he's the sole reason the Packers won he SB. They have a very very good defense even without him. Cullen Jenkins is above average, Woodson is still elite, Williams is a top 5 CB easily, BJ Raji is a top 5 NT, Nick Collins is also very good, Sam Shields a UDFA CB made big contributions. Seriously, that defense is lined up down and sideways with talent. It's not just the pass rush. They have a very potent pass rush, competent LB play and an exceptional secondary.

I could do the exact same thing for the Steelers roster. The Patriots have very few top 10 defensive players. McCourty (if you can use one year to put him top 10), Wilfork, Mayo. That's it. We need an infusion of talent in a lot of spots on the defense. One of which is defensive end, if you want more proof of that then hook back up the interviews of Vince Willfork on WEEI in the first half of the season. He said teams were forcing them into the nickel package and then running it on them. The defensive end play by this team has been just as miserable if not worse than OLB. Go back and watch the defensive line play from last year, it was terrible. Part of generating pressure is having a respectable defensive front, which we don't have.

I like the way you are talking. That is why we need a stud DE or OLB. Somebody to generate double teams or constantly be in the backfield if they are going to doubleteam Wilfork. My point about Matthews is he helps makes the others great. He can get to the QB without having to scheme to get there. If they are going to double him, they are going to pay for it elsewhere. If we had someone like that, it would make Wilfork, Mayo, Spikes, Cunningham etc. better and more effective. McGinest and Seymour were those guys. Usually con't get guys like that outside top half of 1st round.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Move up to take the top pass rusher available, even if you have to climb into the top 10. Even if you give up both #1's, we still have the 1st pick in the 2nd round and many others. It is too hard to get in their minds to know who they like best as the top pass rusher that fits the "Pats way" but they need to target one and take a chance for once. Take a gamble. Paid off very well when we went after Mayo.

Giving up two 1st round picks for one player is never smart. And you don't even know which player you are targeting? That's even less sensible.

The Jets pass rush is actually not all that impressive. They don't have a dominant passrusher who racked up a lot of sacks, they do it with their overall scheme. Yet they were one of the top defenses in the league last year, a lot of it has to do with their corners and Darrelle Revis.

And you're also incorrect about the Mayo example. The Pats traded DOWN from #7 to the #10 pick before they selected Mayo. BB got his VALUE and he still got his man.

The fact is there's not a lot of talent that fits what the Patriots want in an OLB except very early or in the middle of the 2nd round. There's no point in reaching for a player who might never make the transition to 3-4 OLB when you can get better value later on. Reed, Sheard, Houston in the 2nd round onwards are some of the likely targets.

 

[supafly]

Unless lightning strikes, we are not going to get a guy in the 2nd round who is going to be a beast in rushing the passer.

This is where you're losing me too.

Just like Tom Brady picked in the 6th isn't going to ever be a good QB?

FWIW--

James Harrison (never drafted)

Cullen Jenkins (never drafted)

Our own Wes Welker (never drafted)

BJGE (never drafted)

Mike Vrabel (to use your own example, 91st player taken--even after that it took yrs to become much of anything)

LaMar Woodley (46th player taken)

--------

You have no idea which player out of the top 10 is going to fail. According to some numbers (do a google search), there is roughly about a 50% chance that the defensive player in the top 5 is going to fail..miserably--bust written all over him.

2011 NFL Mock Draft: Full Analysis

You should see the numbers for WR's taken in the top 5-10, it's about 80% failure.

How are you going to gamble on one of these players AND give them 10 million a year? We almost just let Wilfork walk for 8, it got a little ugly there for a while. We refuse to pay Mankins approx. 8 now, we're likely going to let the best OG in the entire league walk away. But your suggestion is to guess, try to guess well, and pay some unproven talent 10 million a year?

I would bet anything that if we actually had a top 5 pick, we would definitely trade down.

Now if there's some chance they'd implement a rookie cap in time for the draft, then your strategy would hold more water. Until then, it's too much of a guessing game, too much money to lose, etc.

Plenty of talent can still be had in the 2nd rd on.

 

[Badger]

This is where you're losing me too.

Just like Tom Brady picked in the 6th isn't going to ever be a good QB?

FWIW--

James Harrison (never drafted)

Cullen Jenkins (never drafted)

Our own Wes Welker (never drafted)

BJGE (never drafted)

Mike Vrabel (to use your own example, 91st player taken--even after that it took yrs to become much of anything)

LaMar Woodley (46th player taken)

--------

You have no idea which player out of the top 10 is going to fail. According to some numbers (do a google search), there is roughly about a 50% chance that the defensive player in the top 5 is going to fail..miserably--bust written all over him.

2011 NFL Mock Draft: Full Analysis

You should see the numbers for WR's taken in the top 5-10, it's about 80% failure.

How are you going to gamble on one of these players AND give them 10 million a year? We almost just let Wilfork walk for 8, it got a little ugly there for a while. We refuse to pay Mankins approx. 8 now, we're likely going to let the best OG in the entire league walk away. But your suggestion is to guess, try to guess well, and pay some unproven talent 10 million a year?

I would bet anything that if we actually had a top 5 pick, we would definitely trade down.

Now if there's some chance they'd implement a rookie cap in time for the draft, then your strategy would hold more water. Until then, it's too much of a guessing game, too much money to lose, etc.

Plenty of talent can still be had in the 2nd rd on.

Keep telling yourselves that we can just ignore it. You guys will be the 1st ones screaming when the Jets carve up our punchless defense in the playoffs again next year. Then as the draft comes around again in 2012, you guys will again be advocating for OLinemen and wide recievers and backs. You guys are really fooling yourselves if you think this team can get to another Super Bowl without an impact player on defense. Just doesn't happen that way folks. Nobody in the league is afraid of our defense. Nobody. Even the Colts were able to make it to 2 Super Bowls recently with a subpar defense. However, what did they have? 2 stud pass rushers who get after the QB everytime they need a big defensive play. Once again, this team needs a pass rusher NEXT YEAR. To think we are going to find a stud in the 2nd round to be a force NEXT YEAR is niave. Nothing in the draft is a guarantee but we have to be willing to roll the dice a little bit this year and take a gamble and not just trade back and take the "best value" and guys like Mark Ingram. Regardless of whether we traded up or back to get Mayo, the point is that he was a high 1st round pick and is our best defensive player hands down.

 

[Badger]

This is where you're losing me too.

Just like Tom Brady picked in the 6th isn't going to ever be a good QB?

FWIW--

James Harrison (never drafted)

Cullen Jenkins (never drafted)

Our own Wes Welker (never drafted)

BJGE (never drafted)

Mike Vrabel (to use your own example, 91st player taken--even after that it took yrs to become much of anything)

LaMar Woodley (46th player taken)

--------

You have no idea which player out of the top 10 is going to fail. According to some numbers (do a google search), there is roughly about a 50% chance that the defensive player in the top 5 is going to fail..miserably--bust written all over him.

2011 NFL Mock Draft: Full Analysis

You should see the numbers for WR's taken in the top 5-10, it's about 80% failure.

How are you going to gamble on one of these players AND give them 10 million a year? We almost just let Wilfork walk for 8, it got a little ugly there for a while. We refuse to pay Mankins approx. 8 now, we're likely going to let the best OG in the entire league walk away. But your suggestion is to guess, try to guess well, and pay some unproven talent 10 million a year?

I would bet anything that if we actually had a top 5 pick, we would definitely trade down.

Now if there's some chance they'd implement a rookie cap in time for the draft, then your strategy would hold more water. Until then, it's too much of a guessing game, too much money to lose, etc.

Plenty of talent can still be had in the 2nd rd on.

The rookie salary cap will happen. That is a guarantee. It doesn't matter whether they have the draft or not before the new CBA. They won't be signing any rookies until it is in place and these guys will be getting considerably less money than prior rookies. Even more reason to take a gamble. You are also missing my point about 2nd round picks etc. Yes, there have been good pass rushers that have been developed from lower round picks. However, almost none of them were great rushers right off the bat. This team needs help NEXT YEAR when we are coming off a 14-2 season and we have the best QB in football who is not getting any younger. The brass ring is there to be seized but we need to act with a little more urgency.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Yes, there have been good pass rushers that have been developed from lower round picks. However, almost none of them were great rushers right off the bat. This team needs help NEXT YEAR when we are coming off a 14-2 season and we have the best QB in football who is not getting any younger. The brass ring is there to be seized but we need to act with a little more urgency.

Who is this mythical player of which you speak? If he is that awesome, I'll have email BB the memo so that he is aware of your prognostications.

Just tweaking you a bit man. ;-) But really, who is worth those two 1st rounders you so urgently wish to trade away? You haven't even named a single player, just an inchaote desire for a passrusher.

 

[Off The Grid]

Badger, there isn't a single poster on this board who doesn't crave a better pass rush. But you can't just equate that to "OLB at #17." The way this draft is shaping up, taking an outside rusher at #17 is likely to mean reaching for an inferior player. Everybody's focusing on DE with a side glance to OT because that's where the mid-first talent is concentrated.

In fact, looking back over this thread, I notice that you haven't named a single player you're pulling for at #17.

What OLB candidates do you expect to be available there who are dramatically better than the likely options at #28 or #33? (Let's assume Miller, Bowers, Quinn & Kerrigan are all gone, as in most recent mocks.)

Absolutely love this post.

Ditto!!

Badger, I'll say it again -- EVERYBODY here really, really wants a better pass rush. What's your draft plan?

LOVE it!!

Move up to take the top pass rusher available, even if you have to climb into the top 10. Even if you give up both #1's, we still have the 1st pick in the 2nd round and many others. It is too hard to get in their minds to know who they like best as the top pass rusher that fits the "Pats way" but they need to target one and take a chance for once. Take a gamble. Paid off very well when we went after Mayo.

See, this is where we disagree.

I don't think you can do a mock with hypothetical players, I think you need real ones.

You want the Pats to draft an impact OLB who "fits the Pats way" and will singlehandedly transform the team's pass rush, and who will be available around picks 6-10, but it's "too hard" to know who that player is. What if it's "hard" because the player just doesn't exist?

I guess my major beef is listening to people talk about how we should take Mark Ingram or this Offensive Lineman or this Reciever in the 1st round. While it would be nice to upgrade these positions, this just ignores our MAJOR glaring weakness. Unless lightning strikes, we are not going to get a guy in the 2nd round who is going to be a beast in rushing the passer next year and help us next year. This team needs help now, not 3 years down the road. It is one major defensive playmaker who can rush the passer away from being an incredible team who can dominate playoff games. We can't afford to develop another "project" like Cunningham and hope that he turns into an effective pass rusher down the road. We need to go out and grab a guy with special tools who can get after guys like Sanchez next year based upon talent alone. You are only going to find a guy like that at the very top of the draft unless you acquire a special talent in free agency and this just doesn't seem likely this year. While it is certainly no guarantee that a top level pick is going to be a stud and the draft is littered with some failures like Gholston, it just makes sense to take a chance this year when we have an incredible amount of ammunition with our picks. We can afford to take a big swing here and still draft a number of other quality players. It is simply all about the PASS RUSH with this team right now and this can no longer be ignored for us to get back on top like we were with guys like McGinest, Vrabel, Seymour, etc. who could get after the QB.

Nice Dodge.

How's the gas mileage on that thing?

Honestly, man: I've never seen anyone work SO hard NOT to take a position!!

 

[Badger]

Ditto!!




LOVE it!!

Nice Dodge.

How's the gas mileage on that thing?

Honestly, man: I've never seen anyone work SO hard NOT to take a position!!

Not take a position? Let me clearly define my position. We need a pass rusher with our highest #1 pick. Pure and simple. No offensive linemen, no running backs, wide recievers, or value players. No trading backwards to gather more picks. Our coaches need to identify the absolute best possible pass rusher that can help this team and do what it takes to get him. If that means packaging some picks to move up, do it. If it means staying put at our current spot, do it. Just take a swing at an impact pass rusher who can help this team immediately. Our major glaring weakness if our inability to get to the other team's QB for the past 3 years. This HAS to be solved this year. Can no longer be ignored or addressed by signing garbage free agents like Derrick Burgess and drafting projects like Jermaine Cunningham who will have no impact on the season next year. My original post was that I hate to see posters discussing how we should take Mark Ingram or another OLineman with our 1st round picks and then hope for the best in drafting a DE or OLB in the 2nd rounds or later. You can only stick your head in the sand so long and pretend that we can get by in trying to be an elite team without a gamechanger on defense like a Matthews, Freeney, Peppers etc.

 

[Badger]

Ditto!!




LOVE it!!

Nice Dodge.

How's the gas mileage on that thing?

Honestly, man: I've never seen anyone work SO hard NOT to take a position!!

Yeah "Always starts in the trenches" has won us all of ZERO playoff games the past 3 years. Name me one offensive lineman for the Packers? Didn't think so. They are all about skill position players at the QB and WR spot and one heckuva pass rushing get after it defense. Don't tell me otherwise because I live in Packer country and know what they are built on. They don't even try to run the ball.

 

[jukes]

The packers have a strong front 7 its not just clay, we could solve alot of our problems by just finding another impact guy at 17 or 28 like wilkerson/watt/cameron and make it easier on cunningham and the guys. With that said there is nobody worth trading away all our picks which we could use to manipulate the board and find some depth in the second round

 

[Off The Grid]

# of Posts by Badger in this Thread ~ 15

# of "OLB"s Badger has had the guts to recommend ~ 0